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Old April 4th, 2006, 05:21 AM   #21
hkskyline
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Having these large hypermarts is a good thing from a choice point of view, but if they can get rid of the huge parking lots and consolidate them together into single entities, then that will be far better planning. It's a pain to drive across parking lots to get from one big box to another. Perhaps they can put parking on the roofs to save space?
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Old April 4th, 2006, 07:03 AM   #22
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Do a search on google for:

"dadeland station" +site:skyscrapercity.com

Miami already has one "vertical power center", with two more on the way (one in South Beach at Fifth & Alton, and one in Coral Gables next to Douglas Road Metrorail station.. The ground floor has Best Buy and Michael's Crafts. The second floor has Target. The third floor has Sports Authority and Bed, Bath, & Beyond. Immediately adjacent is the parking garage, each level of which is half the height of one of the adjacent stores. People who park on the ground floor can walk directly into Best Buy and Michael's Crafts. People who park on the third floor can walk directly into Target. People who park on the fifth floor can walk directly into Sports Authority and BB&B. The second, fourth, and sixth floors are usually mostly empty except for the month before Christmas, but they make employees always park on those floors to maximize the amount of space available for shoppers on the three most convenient levels.

It's a great place, because it's equally convenient for both motorists and metrorail riders. It accommodates the fact that 90% of the people who come there are only going to exactly one store and want to just park and go straight there, but still makes it convenient to visit more than one store without having to move your car (because the other store, even if technically in the same plaza, would normally be almost a half kilometer away instead of a hundred feet via escalator or elevator).

Dadeland Station:




more: http://www.berkowitzdevelopment.com/dadeland.htm


Gables Station (yes, this REALLY IS a plaza with big box stores. No jokes about putting a statue of Jeb Bush in a toga, please). It's about a mile from my house. This is the one that people, upon seeing it for the first time, say something to the effect of, "Dear god! That's a f***ing plaza?!?!?"

(speechless in awe...) --




more: http://www.berkowitzdevelopment.com/gablesstation.htm

Fifth & Alton:



more: http://www.berkowitzdevelopment.com/southbeach.htm

Last edited by miamicanes; April 4th, 2006 at 07:21 AM.
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Old April 4th, 2006, 03:39 PM   #23
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When does a plaza become a mall, and vice/versa?

While I can see that there is some advantage, particularly in the south where sun and heat are such an issue, to such a structure, it still seems like an awful big construction. I think the problem is a little less with the amount of physical land space taken up as to how it is used - I would like to see better designed parking lots - landscaped sections, broken into smaller pieces, more pleasant to walk across than an unbroken stretch of blacktop.
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Old April 4th, 2006, 04:15 PM   #24
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Well, for about 8 months a year, it rains a lot. For 3 of them, so much the ground rarely even gets a chance to dry out. So garages are a big, BIG feature. Lots of malls in Miami had garages LONG before there was any direct density-related need for them.

I'd say a plaza becomes a mall when the non-anchor stores become at least as big of a draw as the anchor stores, and most people who go there intend to visit two or more stores. I wouldn't really consider anything without at least 50 stores and a million square feet as a "Mall", though.

As for size... well... they have to be big. Big box stores are individually big. Stack three or more of them vertically, put their collective parking lots adjacent, and the outcome is going to be... big. If you're getting at urban scale, well... Dadeland Station is dwarfed by Dadeland Mall next door, and the pictures you see above are old... the big surface parking lot you see in the pic is now a skyscraper. Gables Station is comparable in size to the Shoppes at Merrick Place next door. And Fifth & Alton is literally across the street from a half-dozen skyscrapers.
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Old April 4th, 2006, 05:18 PM   #25
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The key is to place these close to the street so they can interact with pedestrians. The problem with existing big box developments is that people will need to walk across a huge parking lot to get to the street. If these large mega malls do become the norm, they can be built right next to the street, have a bus stop at the front door, and put the multilevel parking garage at the back.
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Old April 4th, 2006, 08:38 PM   #26
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Just out of curiosity, how does Hong Kong deal with the local climate? As far as I know, HK is as hot, humid, and generally miserable outdoors as Miami is... does it have air-conditioned underground pedestrian arcades like Montreal? Elevated ones like Dallas? Enclosed sidewalks adjacent to the streets? (All of which have been proposed for Miami at one point or another). Or do people just walk around outside and get drenched & be miserable due to the weather?
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Old April 4th, 2006, 09:31 PM   #27
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I don't mind Big Box retailers, they're probably popular and successful for a reason.

I generally don't like to shop at Walmart because they have about 40 registers and everytime I'm there they have about 7 open. We have another grocery store called H-E-B and they look really nice and they usually have all their registers open plus they have a very unique and classy style to them.
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Old April 4th, 2006, 10:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicanes
Just out of curiosity, how does Hong Kong deal with the local climate? As far as I know, HK is as hot, humid, and generally miserable outdoors as Miami is... does it have air-conditioned underground pedestrian arcades like Montreal? Elevated ones like Dallas? Enclosed sidewalks adjacent to the streets? (All of which have been proposed for Miami at one point or another). Or do people just walk around outside and get drenched & be miserable due to the weather?
Many of the food markets are air-conditioned, but the non-food ones such as the clothing markets are all open-air. Underground arcades and enclosed sidewalks are not popular at all, so it's quite difficult to walk on the street for long. I usually go inside a shop every now and then to cool down, then head out again.
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Old April 5th, 2006, 11:22 PM   #29
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And there are some vertical shopping malls like Times Square as well, right? Singapore too.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 01:23 AM   #30
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a big box retail is a retail park?

Last edited by Aquarius; April 6th, 2006 at 01:40 AM.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 02:14 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
And there are some vertical shopping malls like Times Square as well, right? Singapore too.
Yes. HK has several vertical malls. A large mall with two floors would be too costly.

Times Square is one. It even has subway access.
Langham Place is another.

Vertical malls, unlike sprawling malls can actually add greatly to a city's urban experience in my opinion.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 03:00 AM   #32
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The biggest retails in the center of Barcelona

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Old April 6th, 2006, 05:36 AM   #33
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This is a interesting article that ties in well with this thread. Since the original post is about downtown retailers suffering as well as car dependencies.

There is a Costco and Concord Pacific venture that places the Costco under some Concord Pacific condos near GM Place http://www.vancourier.com/issues04/0...061204nn2.html
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Old April 6th, 2006, 05:53 AM   #34
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Skybean is right, especially when they are integrated into existing high street shopping and include lots of after-hours facilities like cinemas, restaurants, and bars, vertical shopping centres can actually add urban amenity to an area. They are the the arcades of the 21st century.



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Old April 6th, 2006, 06:07 AM   #35
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Are these malls or actually big box retail?

When I saw this thread I was thinking of large chain stores in urban areas like this:



In Lincoln Park, not vertical malls with smaller shops.

Last edited by spyguy; April 6th, 2006 at 06:21 AM.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 06:10 AM   #36
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That one I posted has two department stores, a Target, a Borders, two supermarkets and 450 shops. It's like those stackable ones in Florida (except with a lot of small stores). It's rare to find stores like Target, Kmart etc. sitting by themselves surrounded by carparks in Australia.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 07:56 AM   #37
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The suburbs around Copenhagen has a few - maily electronics stores ( Elgiganten, ComputerCity ) and funiture ( Ikea, Dalles Bolighus, Jysk )

But malls are plentyful in the Metro area, so it's not on the same level as in the states.
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Old April 6th, 2006, 11:43 PM   #38
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Here is a shot of the Home Depot that opened near the Flatiron Bldg.

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Old April 6th, 2006, 11:57 PM   #39
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I thinking that project in Vancouver is ingenious. Any other examples like that?

Why are they called ACE in Sydney? Just the development/retail management company?
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Old April 7th, 2006, 04:38 AM   #40
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Here's an update from the SF Chronicle on the latest legal ruling re: "Big Box" in California

Cities can keep out big stores
Court upholds law in Turlock designed to block Wal-Mart
- Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Thursday, April 6, 2006


Cities can outlaw big-box superstores in order to prevent the collapse of local businesses and resulting urban blight, a state appeals court ruled Wednesday in a case that sets a statewide precedent for ordinances aimed at retail giant Wal-Mart.

Upholding a 2004 ordinance in the city of Turlock (Stanislaus County) that was backed by neighborhood supermarkets and labor unions, the Court of Appeal in Fresno said the city legally used its power to "control and organize development within its boundaries.''

The court also rejected Wal-Mart's argument that the city had failed to study the environmental effect of banning huge one-stop stores, which included a proliferation of smaller outlets, accompanied by increased traffic and pollution, according to the company. The court said those impacts were speculative and could be addressed if such stores were ever proposed.

The ruling, the first by a California appellate court on the issue, was delivered against a backdrop of legal and political conflict over Wal-Mart's efforts to establish a California network of discount supercenters -- stores that exceed 100,000 square feet and contain full-size groceries.

Local businesses fear ruinous competition from the world's largest retailer. Unions have been struggling for years, without success, to gain a foothold at Wal-Mart, and worry that the new stores would displace union-represented businesses or pressure them to cut wages.

"The decision will help provide a template for other communities which are considering regulating discount superstores,'' said Rick Jarvis, a lawyer for the city of Turlock.

Wal-Mart spokesman John Simley said the city's opposition is "unfortunate, because it goes against customer demand.'' He also said the ruling "weakens the state's environmental statutes'' and fails to recognize the environmental benefits of allowing customers to make fewer trips to buy what they need.

Simley said the company has not decided whether to appeal. Wal-Mart has also sued Turlock in federal court, claiming the ordinance unconstitutionally discriminates against one type of store and interferes with interstate commerce.

The Arkansas company has opened supercenters in seven California communities in the past two years, including Gilroy and Stockton, Simley said. He said about 20 cities and counties in Northern California have passed ordinances seeking to limit or block the stores.

Locally, San Francisco, Oakland and Martinez have measures excluding such stores. Contra Costa County supervisors enacted a ban in 2003, covering unincorporated areas, but it was repealed by voters in an April 2004 referendum in which Wal-Mart spent more than $1 million. After that vote, Alameda County supervisors rescinded a similar ordinance, under threat of a lawsuit. They passed a new measure last month requiring big-box retailers to describe the impact of new stores on the local economy and give details of employees' pay and benefits.

Turlock, which has a Wal-Mart store, considered plans for a supercenter in 2003, but the proposal stirred business and labor opposition that led to passage of the ordinance in January 2004.

It did not name Wal-Mart, but prohibited any retail store larger than 100,000 feet that devoted more than 5 percent of its space to non-taxable items such as groceries. The City Council said the purpose was to preserve neighborhood shopping centers, anchored by local supermarkets.

In Wednesday's ruling, which upheld a Superior Court judge's decision, the appeals court said the city acted with a legal purpose, even if its action had an anti-competitive impact.

"While zoning ordinances may not legitimately be used to control economic competition, they may be used to address the urban/suburban decay that can be its effect,'' said Justice Betty Dawson in the 3-0 ruling.
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