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Old July 9th, 2009, 04:39 AM   #3081
droneriot
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Agreed. I could enter Jerusalem, Vatican City, Varanasi, Lhasa, etc. without restriction if I wanted.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #3082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
Agreed. I could enter Jerusalem, Vatican City, Varanasi, Lhasa, etc. without restriction if I wanted.
well not totally true infidels are not allowed into Jerusalem's temple mount.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 12:27 PM   #3083
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Try to stop me when I arrive in my Godkiller t-shirt! I'm a tourist, hear me roar!
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Old July 9th, 2009, 12:30 PM   #3084
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hey moderators. why do my comments get removed but I have to read this unadulterated crap?
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Old July 9th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #3085
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Because we are staying on topic - in this case international tourism to Mecca, which is directly related to the construction of a large hotel in said city. You apparently aren't capable of staying on topic, hence the removals.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 02:02 PM   #3086
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Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
Agreed. I could enter Jerusalem, Vatican City, Varanasi, Lhasa, etc. without restriction if I wanted.
different religions different rules, its as easy as that! and you will not get in to every temple in Varanasi!
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Old July 9th, 2009, 02:09 PM   #3087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzy View Post
A lame answer. Same could be said about every other city of high religious significance, yet it only applies to Mecca. I'm waiting for a better one, religion related, not some propaganda bullshit.
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Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
Agreed. I could enter Jerusalem, Vatican City, Varanasi, Lhasa, etc. without restriction if I wanted.
Propaganda bullshit? its not my problem that you are so thick minded .. Again Mecca is not a tourist destination .. Its a pure Muslim place for Muslims to perform their rituals .. Why would any non Muslim wan to visit Mecca if not for tourism?

Here is a quote from another forumer that may explain things a bit more:

Quote:
Salaam!

This is a good question, and one raised frequently by non-Muslims. Here's my take on the topic:

1) Many have already pointed this out, but it's worth repeating: Mecca is NOT a tourist attraction. The only reason to go there is to worship God, period. The only exception is those having legitimate business there.

2) Muslims all over the world spend their entire life saving to be able to go to Mecca. How do you think they'd feel if they finally got there and saw a bunch of American tourists snapping photos, getting in the way, and raiding all the new "gift shops" that would surely pop up. It would cheapen the entire experience - an experience only meant for the worship and remembrance of God.

3) Mecca cannot handle the numbers of JUST MUSLIMS who go there. If they let non-Muslims in, it would be total chaos and like I said above, greatly cheapen the place. Every year during Hajj, the news is always filled with stories of Muslims being trampled to death. This is not because people don't get out of the way or because no one cares about anyone else - THERE'S LITERALLY NOWHERE FOR ANYONE TO GO. ITS ALREADY TOO CROWDED!

One of the biggest draws to Islam for me is how it has stayed seperated from Western commercialism. Have you ever seen a large flood of Muslims at the mall during Ramadan? No!

The great thing about Mecca is that it really breaks down class and race barriers. During Hajj, everyone wears the same clothing. A poor man could easily be praying with a wealthy business executive - and they'd never know it. Likewise; Arabs, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics and all other races you can think of pray together and go through the rituals of Hajj.

If Muslims opened up the tourism gates to Mecca, then suddenly these things would start to matter (maybe not so much race, but definatley class).

Mecca has managed to stay pure for this long - let's keep it that way!

Peace
Brad
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Old July 9th, 2009, 02:38 PM   #3088
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All these arguments would apply to Vatican City as well.

I guess there's a reason the Masjid al-Haram isn't a UNESCO world heritage site...


EDIT: On a sidenote, as I know from first-hand experience, tourists - even those much reviled Americans - know how to be respectful if they're told that they'll insult the faith of hundreds of millions of people and likely face punishment if they don't behave properly, so that argument of yours doesn't hold any water, either.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 02:55 PM   #3089
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Opinions are found pretty much in contrast on this project, but i really admire the massiveness of the project, and it looks good! I don't know, they aren't just a bunch of skyscrapers clustered together, they have something else attached to it, you can feel the spirituality through the pictures.

I like it very much, let's hope the purpose of this project will be able to fulfill the pilgrims' demand.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 03:16 PM   #3090
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If Mecca is not a tourist attraction then why are we hearing about all the amazing new malls opening in this complex, complete with lingerie shops? I know at least three Muslims who have been to Mecca and every single one of them has regarded it as much as a holiday as a religious duty. One lady I know has been there four times and she always buys souvenirs for her family. "Brad" has a somewhat idealised view of Islam and the Haj informed, I suspect, by some breed of anti-capitalist politics.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 06:56 PM   #3091
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First of all, I am not Muslim, so feel free to KINDLY correct me on any erroneous statements.

Unless I am mistaken, the Hajj is a reflection of the importance and influence of the life of Muhammad, although Muslims consider the pilgrimage to date back to the time of Abraham. It is not, however, associated with any particular day of significance (as far as I know). In fact, the dates change for the Hajj every year.

Now I obviously am not expecting my suggestion to have influence over the Muslim religion at all but I have an idea that could theoretically foster some positive results.

Because the Muslim population is doing nothing but getting bigger, and because Mecca, specifically the site of the Kaaba has stayed the same size (yes I know there are plans to revamp the Mosque, but what happens when that isn't sufficient?), it might mean that traditions that were once suitable may no longer be appropriate due to the changing times (as evidenced by the hundreds of trampled pilgrims). I am not suggesting to rid the tradition completely, but rather to alter it in order that more people can safely and comfortably make their pilgrimage to Mecca.

Why not change it so that the Hajj does not have to be performed between the 7th and 10th days of the Dhu al-Hijjah, the 12th month of the Islamic calendar. Yes, I realize this is called the Umrah, but why not eliminate this and allow the Hajj to be performed at any time of the year. At the very least, widen the dates of the pilgrimage to a week or two. Or, coordinate several dates for the Hajj to take place, on a biannual or quarterly system. The original Hajj would still remain the most sacred and tickets to this are free (duh), but must be reserved in advance. That way it is fair to all.

Catholics have not banned all non-Catholics from Vatican City or St. Peter's Basilica, even on Easter. But when you think about it, what non-Catholic would really want to go to Easter Mass at St. Peter's? (It's way longer than normal too!) And it was not always this way. For example, Louis IX brought Christ's crown of thorns to Paris and built Saint Chapelle to house them. Orignially, only the royal family could enter the upper chamber of the chapel to view the relics. (Now they are not on display and are housed within Notre Dame) Of course that is not how it is now, anyone can visit Saint Chapelle and appreciate its beauty. You don't have to be Catholic to be humbled. Yes I know it is a different religion, but it can provide ideas for others.

I know this seems like a radical change, but I think it is the most practical. Now only would more Muslims be able to make the pilgrimage, but no one would die, and everyone would be more comfortable.

Also, then Mecca might be more accepting of the idea of opening up the city to non-Muslims. Why not ban them from coming during the Hajj only? And now that I think of it, why don't they do that currently? Mecca hardly has an economy to speak of, and most of its income is because of the Hajj. I am not saying that Meccans should adopt the Western way of capitalism or anything like that (so don't even try and say that is what I am suggesting), but I am sure the standard of living is not spectacular and some additional revenue would be welcomed. That way Meccans can live happier and Muslims can safely and easily make their pilgrimage.

My whole point is this: The current method of the pilgrimage is not working efficiently. Make some changes and HOPEFULLY most would be satisfied with these changes, and then everything would go a lot smoother. Also, I think it is important to be open-minded. Don't think of tourists as the tacky, obnoxious, "getting in the way" and "American" (Brad!). Intelligent, curious, respectable, and non-American people travel too. There is no reason why anyone should believe that non-Mulims cannot appreciate a sacred place like Mecca.

I rest my case.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 07:15 PM   #3092
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Some of the rituals surrounding the Hajj have already been modified - see this Wiki piece.
It's also worth noting that pilgrims do come to Mecca other than on the four days of the Hajj. Mecca is a large city by any standards without the influx of pilgrims, having a population of over 1.7million, so there would be a call for hotel rooms all year round, although obviously during pilgrimages the need for accommodation would be acute.

With the Albraj Al-Bait it's obvious this is an "up-market" hotel complex and is designed for the more well-heeled pilgrim or visitor to the city.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 08:46 PM   #3093
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There is definitively a big difference from April to june ! Around 2/3 of total height...
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Old July 9th, 2009, 09:33 PM   #3094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rody69 View Post
Friday 19.06.2009

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
It's so beautiful. Quality construction, I wanna lick it.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 10:51 PM   #3095
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Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
Agreed. I could enter Jerusalem, Vatican City, Varanasi, Lhasa, etc. without restriction if I wanted.
at least they didn't kick the people of mecca out and forbid them of coming back











Quote:
Originally Posted by droneriot View Post
All these arguments would apply to Vatican City as well.

I guess there's a reason the Masjid al-Haram isn't a UNESCO world heritage site...


EDIT: On a sidenote, as I know from first-hand experience, tourists - even those much reviled Americans - know how to be respectful if they're told that they'll insult the faith of hundreds of millions of people and likely face punishment if they don't behave properly, so that argument of yours doesn't hold any water, either.


ya ,,
just like they respect the" Uluru" of Australia and the Mosque of Djenne
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Old July 9th, 2009, 11:33 PM   #3096
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Hi i am Muslim and ill try to explain why non Muslims are not allowed in Mecca. First of all non Muslim are not allowed in the holly mosque this is according to the qur’an (I’m not sure of the resion given in the qur’an but it is in there). People might not agree with it but it is reason, also it is a place for worship not a place where people come and just look.
When people ask the question “ if it is not a tourist destination why are so may hotel being built” This is purely because so many Muslims go to Mecca every year that there just is no space left, also most of the old building are not safe, so the Saudi Government decided to demolish the old building and build new taller tower to replace them. During the time off hajj when there are around 3 million people at once, people have to share room with 7 to 8 other people as there is just no space.
I hope this ansure you question
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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:13 AM   #3097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaggers_jr View Post
If Mecca is not a tourist attraction then why are we hearing about all the amazing new malls opening in this complex, complete with lingerie shops? I know at least three Muslims who have been to Mecca and every single one of them has regarded it as much as a holiday as a religious duty. One lady I know has been there four times and she always buys souvenirs for her family. "Brad" has a somewhat idealised view of Islam and the Haj informed, I suspect, by some breed of anti-capitalist politics.
You do realize people live there, right? It's a city, and thus has malls, recreational venues, and so on.

Local retailers do cater to the residents and the religious visitors, who are there to carry out religious rituals. This has no implications on the sanctity of the city.

I live in Jeddah, but have family in Makkah. I often go up there to visit them, and go to Al-Haram while I'm there for prayer. In the short break between maghrib and isha prayers, I may wander the shops next to the masjid, and I may buy some stuff as a result.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 08:49 AM   #3098
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Originally Posted by womfalcs3 View Post
You do realize people live there, right? It's a city, and thus has malls, recreational venues, and so on.

Local retailers do cater to the residents and the religious visitors, who are there to carry out religious rituals. This has no implications on the sanctity of the city.

I live in Jeddah, but have family in Makkah. I often go up there to visit them, and go to Al-Haram while I'm there for prayer. In the short break between maghrib and isha prayers, I may wander the shops next to the masjid, and I may buy some stuff as a result.
Sure, of course I know people live there. But these malls are clearly NOT designed for the locals, they're designed for upscale pilgrims. For the record, I don't actually think there's anything wrong with that. Why shouldn't a trip to Mecca be combined with some "tourist" stuff and a shopping trip? I think it's perfectly normal. I was merely refuting Brad's suggestion that no Muslim would ever ever go to Mecca with anything but the most pious of intentions.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 08:50 AM   #3099
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the last picture its amazing....
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Old July 10th, 2009, 09:06 PM   #3100
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I would love to see this building, it will be so massive and unique, and I DO feel discriminated to be banned from a city just because I don't belong to certain religion.

I repeat, I find this building very interesting and I will continue to whitness its rise knowing that I will never get the chance to admire it with my own eyes.
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