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Old April 17th, 2006, 05:50 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shayan
distructive wahibbies. nice project very wrong spot. Me as a non muslim have more respect for islam that the al saud family.
Im not against the project but im against building palaces and skyscrapers on historically important places such as Abraj al-bait is built over the Ajyad castle according to a business newspaper.
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Old April 17th, 2006, 06:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shayan
distructive wahibbies. nice project very wrong spot. Me as a non muslim have more respect for islam that the al saud family.

If you knew anything about Islam you would know they are Salafis not Wahhabi's,

And you as a non-Muslim do not have a right to meddle in Muslim affairs, as its been repeated a million times Makkah MUST build vertically..

How does it make sense to have 3 story buildings in a city that is worth more than any other PER SQUARE METER... With remote moutains surrounding the whole area.

It boggles the mind as to why they haven't built Vertically from before??

Last edited by *UofT*; April 17th, 2006 at 06:44 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2006, 07:27 PM   #43
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And you as a non-Muslim do not have a right to meddle in Muslim affairs, as its been repeated a million times Makkah MUST build vertically..
That is a silly sentiment. Next time someone posts something I don't like on a Miami thread I'll spew out "non-Miamians do not have a right to meddle in Miami affairs" and see how far tht gets me. Anyhow, I like the building.
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Old April 17th, 2006, 08:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 909
So we could expect more interesting projects in the future?
Here are the "interesting" projects :
(They've been around for a while now)

Jabal Omar Project
-Seven 35-storey apartment towers
-Two 50-storey hotel towers
-Four 15-storey hotel blocks
-4 storeys Retail concourse





















Jabal Khandamah Project























Le Merdien Towers




Sahmiyah Project


Al Abrar Towers


Saudia Tower
(Outer Makkah)


And there are many other projects with towers from 25 to 35 floors but I cant find any pictures/renders of them. One of those project is the Ajyad Hospital Tower, Jabal Kabaa Project, etc.
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Old April 17th, 2006, 08:10 PM   #45
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It's becoming a Mecchattan.
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Old April 17th, 2006, 08:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by DGM
That is a silly sentiment. Next time someone posts something I don't like on a Miami thread I'll spew out "non-Miamians do not have a right to meddle in Miami affairs" and see how far tht gets me. Anyhow, I like the building.

Actually, He was making an almost value judgement based on "Wahhabi" principles not knowing jack of what they stand for. He was claiming to be on a higher moral ground than Salafis that he terms as Wahhabis.

I know where your coming from, but would you want Non-Catholics to dictate terms of the Vatican?
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Old April 17th, 2006, 08:29 PM   #47
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Oh I see. I didn't know what a wahhabi or a salafi was. I'm going to wiki them right now. As for the Catholic church... they can probably use some PR and marketing consultants.

Im just kidding, BTW. I don't mean to taint this thread with religious arguments. VC15NETS, that was a great post. I have never seen those developments and they are right next to Abraj Al-Bait. Very cool. The middle eastern style is really unique, they don't build single buildings over there, they build skylines. I really like it, though some of the buildings seem a bit boring. They could be spruced up a bit.
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Old April 18th, 2006, 01:49 AM   #48
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DGM. Wahhabis tend to refuse the "wahhabi" label, since the whole concept of wahhabism is one of a 'return to the origins' and of 'purifying religion from all the add-ons' so to speak, i.e. they are against the idea of 'sects' in islam, so it is really natural that they refuse being called a sect. preferring instead the term 'salafi' (originalist, a la Scalia).
That is usually how I know a Wahhabi, when he says: "there is no such thing as wahhabism."
However, most people (in and outside the Muslim world) refer to the branch of Islam originating in Najd, and affected by the ideas of 18th century preacher M. Ibn `abdel Wahhab as "Wahhabism".
And I agree, the point that "non-moslems should not speak about moslems" is totally silly.
And the statement "distructive wahabis" (sic), is offensive to people of that faith and should not be used with such generalization... just like saying: "dirty X" (use whatever group).
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Old April 18th, 2006, 09:07 AM   #49
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That's very grand and ambitious project indeed. it wil turn Mecca to be more massive city.
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Old April 18th, 2006, 10:54 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khayam
DGM. Wahhabis tend to refuse the "wahhabi" label, since the whole concept of wahhabism is one of a 'return to the origins' and of 'purifying religion from all the add-ons' so to speak, i.e. they are against the idea of 'sects' in islam, so it is really natural that they refuse being called a sect. preferring instead the term 'salafi' (originalist, a la Scalia).
That is usually how I know a Wahhabi, when he says: "there is no such thing as wahhabism."
However, most people (in and outside the Muslim world) refer to the branch of Islam originating in Najd, and affected by the ideas of 18th century preacher M. Ibn `abdel Wahhab as "Wahhabism".
And I agree, the point that "non-moslems should not speak about moslems" is totally silly.
And the statement "distructive wahabis" (sic), is offensive to people of that faith and should not be used with such generalization... just like saying: "dirty X" (use whatever group).

Actually no, To call Salafis "Salafis" and not "Wahhabis" does not make a person a Wahhabi. I am no where close of being a Salafi but recognize the fact that it is more respectable and politically correctly to term them as Salafis rather than "Wahhabis"

But I agree with everything else in your post.
Respect always wins in this world whether you like it or not.
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Old April 18th, 2006, 03:33 PM   #51
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UFO SHUT UP WANNA BE PERSIAN GULF ARAB!
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sixty years ago, upon the invitation of the Russian Red Cross, Princess Ashraf Pahlavi, twin sister of the Shah of Iran, went to see Stalin in order to demand the retrieval of Soviet invading forces from Iran. The princess entered the Kremlin where she pleaded with great passion for the liberation of Iran, her motherland. Impressed by her courage, Stalin became all smiles. He said loudly to his rather stern entourage: "Now here is a brave and true patriot." Pravda, June 28, 1946.
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Old April 18th, 2006, 05:42 PM   #52
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First when I see this pic...

....first came to mine mind was, I can imagine what it will like in another 30 years when the future civilization discover this..
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Old April 18th, 2006, 10:43 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by shayan
UFO SHUT UP WANNA BE PERSIAN GULF ARAB!

The Holy City of Mecca has nothing to do with the Gulf nations you close minded fool, Arabs are not the only Muslims in this world.
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Old April 19th, 2006, 02:10 AM   #54
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Arabs = only 15% of muslims
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Old April 19th, 2006, 09:28 PM   #55
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i donīt like that urbanism, very dense to me (sorry
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Old April 20th, 2006, 02:45 AM   #56
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fowl. tacky looks like a disneyland for arabs.
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:19 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mookieflookie
Arabs = only 15% of muslims
yea that could be higher
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:23 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaRaJeVo-City
yea that could be higher

Well at the rate Arabs are procreating they could soon become 25% of all Muslims from 15%

Hey smussuw that's cheating!! HAHAHA
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Old April 20th, 2006, 03:39 AM   #59
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An interesting article on over development of Mecca

Shame of the House of Saud: Shadows over Mecca

Previously unseen photographs reveal how religious zealots obsessed with idolatory have colluded with developers to destroy Islam's diverse heritage. By Daniel Howden
Published: 19 April 2006
There is a growing shadow being cast over Islam's holiest site. Only a few metres from the walls of the Grand Mosque in Mecca skyscrapers are reaching further into the sky, slowly blocking out the light. These enormous and garish newcomers now dwarf the elegant black granite of the Kaaba, the focal point of the four million Muslims' annual Haj pilgrimage.

The tower blocks are the latest and largest evidence of the destruction of Islamic heritage that has wiped almost all of the historic city from the physical landscape. As revealed in The Independent last August,the historic cities of Mecca and Medina are under an unprecedented assault from religious zealots and their commercial backers.

Writing in response to the article, Prince Turki al-Faisal said that Saudi Arabia was spending more than $19bn (Ģ11bn) preserving and maintaining these two holy sites. "[We are aware] how important the preservation of this heritage is, not just to us but to the millions of Muslims from around the world who visit the two holy mosques every year. It is hardly something we are going to allow to be destroyed."

This rebuttal sits at odds with a series of previously unseen photographs, published today, that document the demolition of key archaeological sites and their replacement with skyscrapers.

Saudi religious authorities have overseen a decades-long demolition campaign that has cleared the way for developers to embark on a building spree of multi-storey hotels, restaurants, shopping centres and luxury apartment blocks on a scale unseen outside Dubai. The driving force behind this historical demolition is Wahhabism * the austere state faith that the House of Saud brought with it when Ibn Saud conquered the Arabian peninsula in the 1920s.

The Wahhabis live in fanatical fear that places of historical or religious interest could give rise to alternative forms of pilgrimage or worship. Their obsession with combating idolatry has seen them flatten all evidence of a past that does not agree with their interpretation of Islam.

Irfan Ahmed al-Alawi, the chairman of the Islamic Heritage Foundation, set up to help protect the holy sites, says the case of the grave of Amina bint Wahb, the mother of the Prophet, found in 1998, is typical of what has happened. "It was bulldozed in Abwa and gasoline was poured on it. Even though thousands of petitions throughout the Muslim world were sent, nothing could stop this action."

Today there are fewer than 20 structures remaining in Mecca that date back to the time of the Prophet 1,400 years ago. The litany of this lost history includes the house of Khadijah, the wife of the Prophet, demolished to make way for public lavatories; the house of Abu Bakr, the Prophet's companion, now the site of the local Hilton hotel; the house of Ali-Oraid, the grandson of the Prophet, and the Mosque of abu-Qubais, now the location of the King's palace in Mecca.

Yet the same oil-rich dynasty that pumped money into the Taliban regime as they blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan six years ago has so far avoided international criticism for similar acts of vandalism at home. Mai Yamani, author of The Cradle of Islam, said it was time for other Muslim governments to ignore the al-Sauds' oil wealth and clout and speak out. " What is alarming about this is that the world doesn't question the al-Sauds' custodianship of Islam's two holy places. These are the sites that are of such importance to over one billion Muslims and yet their destruction is being ignored," she said. "When the Prophet was insulted by Danish cartoonists thousands of people went into the streets to protest. The sites related to the Prophet are part of their heritage and religion but we see no concern from Muslims."

Lay people, and in some cases even US senators could be forgiven for thinking that the House of Saud has been the guardian of the two holy places for time immemorial. In fact, it is only 80 years since the tribal chieftain Ibn Saud occupied Mecca and Medina. The House of Saud has been bound to Wahhabism since the 18th century religious reformer Mohamed Ibn Abdul-Wahab signed a pact with Mohammed bin Saud in 1744. Wahab's warrior zealots helped to conquer a kingdom for the tribal chieftains. The House of Saud got its wealth and power, and the clerics got the vehicle of state they needed to spread their fundamentalist ideology around the world. The ruler of this fledgling kingdom needed the legitimacy afforded by declaring himself " custodian of the two holy places".

But that legitimacy has come at an enormous price for the diversity of Muslims who look to Mecca for guidance. Once in charge, the Wahhabists wasted little time in censoring the Haj. As early as 1929, Egyptian pilgrims were refused permission to celebrate the colourful Mahmal rites and more than 30 were killed. At the time Egypt severed diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. Few governments have stood up to them since.

Instead, the homogenisation of Islam's holiest sites was allowed to accelerate into a demolition campaign that now threatens the birthplace of the Prophet itself. The site survived the early reign of Ibn Saud 50 years ago when the architect for the planned library persuaded the absolute ruler to allow him to preserve the remains under the new structure. Saudi authorities now plan to "update" the site with a car park that would mean concreting over the remains.

"The al-Sauds need to rein in the Wahhabists now," warns Dr Yamani. "Mecca used to be a symbol of Muslim diversity and it needs to be again." But with oil prices and profits, at record highs, there is little sign the House of Saud is listening.

Sami Angawi, a Hijazi architect who has devoted his life to a largely doomed effort to preserve what remains of the history of the world's greatest pilgrimage sites, said that the final farewell to Mecca was imminent. " What we are witnessing are the last days of Mecca and Medina."

Mecca's skyline

Giant cranes and half-constructed skyscrapers tower over the Grand Mosque in Mecca. Six new property developments, including the Bin Laden group's Zam Zam Tower, are transforming the character of Islam's holiest city

ISLAMIC HERITAGE FOUNDATION

Mountain of light

The mountain of light, or al-Nour, is next in the Wahhabis' sights. Home to the Hira'a cave, it was here that the Prophet is said to have received the first verses of the Koran. Hardline clerics want it destroyed to stop pilgrims visiting. At the foot of the hill there is a Wahhabi fatwa: " The Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) did not permit us to climb on to this hill, not to pray here, not to touch stones, and tie knots on trees..."

ISLAMIC HERITAGE FOUNDATION

The Prophet's wife's grave

The ruins in the foreground are the remains of the grave of the Prophet's wife, Al Baqi, destroyed in the 1950s. The mutawi religious police are present night and day to prevent anyone placing flowers on the site, or even praying in the proximity of the graves

THE ISLAMIC HERITAGE FOUNDATION

Al Oraid Mosque

The 1,200-year-old mosque, site of the grave of the Prophet's grandson al-Oraid, is seen here being dynamited. Gathered around the site are Saudi religious police with their distinctive red scarves, who appear to be celebrating

THE ISLAMIC HERITAGE FOUNDATION

There is a growing shadow being cast over Islam's holiest site. Only a few metres from the walls of the Grand Mosque in Mecca skyscrapers are reaching further into the sky, slowly blocking out the light. These enormous and garish newcomers now dwarf the elegant black granite of the Kaaba, the focal point of the four million Muslims' annual Haj pilgrimage.

The tower blocks are the latest and largest evidence of the destruction of Islamic heritage that has wiped almost all of the historic city from the physical landscape. As revealed in The Independent last August,the historic cities of Mecca and Medina are under an unprecedented assault from religious zealots and their commercial backers.

Writing in response to the article, Prince Turki al-Faisal said that Saudi Arabia was spending more than $19bn (Ģ11bn) preserving and maintaining these two holy sites. "[We are aware] how important the preservation of this heritage is, not just to us but to the millions of Muslims from around the world who visit the two holy mosques every year. It is hardly something we are going to allow to be destroyed."

This rebuttal sits at odds with a series of previously unseen photographs, published today, that document the demolition of key archaeological sites and their replacement with skyscrapers.

Saudi religious authorities have overseen a decades-long demolition campaign that has cleared the way for developers to embark on a building spree of multi-storey hotels, restaurants, shopping centres and luxury apartment blocks on a scale unseen outside Dubai. The driving force behind this historical demolition is Wahhabism * the austere state faith that the House of Saud brought with it when Ibn Saud conquered the Arabian peninsula in the 1920s.

The Wahhabis live in fanatical fear that places of historical or religious interest could give rise to alternative forms of pilgrimage or worship. Their obsession with combating idolatry has seen them flatten all evidence of a past that does not agree with their interpretation of Islam.

Irfan Ahmed al-Alawi, the chairman of the Islamic Heritage Foundation, set up to help protect the holy sites, says the case of the grave of Amina bint Wahb, the mother of the Prophet, found in 1998, is typical of what has happened. "It was bulldozed in Abwa and gasoline was poured on it. Even though thousands of petitions throughout the Muslim world were sent, nothing could stop this action."

Today there are fewer than 20 structures remaining in Mecca that date back to the time of the Prophet 1,400 years ago. The litany of this lost history includes the house of Khadijah, the wife of the Prophet, demolished to make way for public lavatories; the house of Abu Bakr, the Prophet's companion, now the site of the local Hilton hotel; the house of Ali-Oraid, the grandson of the Prophet, and the Mosque of abu-Qubais, now the location of the King's palace in Mecca.

Yet the same oil-rich dynasty that pumped money into the Taliban regime as they blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan six years ago has so far avoided international criticism for similar acts of vandalism at home. Mai Yamani, author of The Cradle of Islam, said it was time for other Muslim governments to ignore the al-Sauds' oil wealth and clout and speak out. " What is alarming about this is that the world doesn't question the al-Sauds' custodianship of Islam's two holy places. These are the sites that are of such importance to over one billion Muslims and yet their destruction is being ignored," she said. "When the Prophet was insulted by Danish cartoonists thousands of people went into the streets to protest. The sites related to the Prophet are part of their heritage and religion but we see no concern from Muslims."

Lay people, and in some cases even US senators could be forgiven for thinking that the House of Saud has been the guardian of the two holy places for time immemorial. In fact, it is only 80 years since the tribal chieftain Ibn Saud occupied Mecca and Medina. The House of Saud has been bound to Wahhabism since the 18th century religious reformer Mohamed Ibn Abdul-Wahab signed a pact with Mohammed bin Saud in 1744. Wahab's warrior zealots helped to conquer a kingdom for the tribal chieftains. The House of Saud got its wealth and power, and the clerics got the vehicle of state they needed to spread their fundamentalist ideology around the world. The ruler of this fledgling kingdom needed the legitimacy afforded by declaring himself " custodian of the two holy places".
But that legitimacy has come at an enormous price for the diversity of Muslims who look to Mecca for guidance. Once in charge, the Wahhabists wasted little time in censoring the Haj. As early as 1929, Egyptian pilgrims were refused permission to celebrate the colourful Mahmal rites and more than 30 were killed. At the time Egypt severed diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. Few governments have stood up to them since.

Instead, the homogenisation of Islam's holiest sites was allowed to accelerate into a demolition campaign that now threatens the birthplace of the Prophet itself. The site survived the early reign of Ibn Saud 50 years ago when the architect for the planned library persuaded the absolute ruler to allow him to preserve the remains under the new structure. Saudi authorities now plan to "update" the site with a car park that would mean concreting over the remains.

"The al-Sauds need to rein in the Wahhabists now," warns Dr Yamani. "Mecca used to be a symbol of Muslim diversity and it needs to be again." But with oil prices and profits, at record highs, there is little sign the House of Saud is listening.

Sami Angawi, a Hijazi architect who has devoted his life to a largely doomed effort to preserve what remains of the history of the world's greatest pilgrimage sites, said that the final farewell to Mecca was imminent. " What we are witnessing are the last days of Mecca and Medina."
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Old April 20th, 2006, 05:33 AM   #60
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Today there are fewer than 20 structures remaining in Mecca that date back to the time of the Prophet 1,400 years ago. The litany of this lost history includes the house of Khadijah, the wife of the Prophet, demolished to make way for public lavatories; the house of Abu Bakr, the Prophet's companion, now the site of the local Hilton hotel; the house of Ali-Oraid, the grandson of the Prophet, and the Mosque of abu-Qubais, now the location of the King's palace in Mecca.
Funny how the person that wrote this article probably has absolutely no idea about what the needs are like when it comes to infrastructure in the City. There is a DIRE need to build high and massive as stated before for obvious reasons.

As sad as this sounds neither of the above aformentioned sites have a purpose in the pilgramage to the Holy city of Mecca or religious significance. Would I rather have Abu Bakr's house instead of a Hilton? Ofcourse!! but does it hurt Islam in not having it? I don't think so....

From my knowledge the arch-rivals of "Wahhabis" being "Shia's" are against the recent construction boom in makkah. From my knowledge Shia Muslims detest all this development. They number 10% of the religion and so far most Sunni's have not been too bothered by it and are looking forward to the development 90%.
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