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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:11 AM   #6761
abumuhannadh
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Originally Posted by gohorns View Post
Yeah no kidding!!

That NYT article is completely BS. It is criticism for the sake of criticism and it is completely biased. Where in the article does the writer bring up the argument for these developments? There is no opposing view at all. Where is the balance? I am disappointed with the NY Times. Where is the mention of the condition of the old/crumbling buildings that surrounded the Grand Mosque and have been torn down and are being replaced? Where is the mention of the living conditions in them? Where is the mention of how congested Makkah really is and how there is so little space to build because of the mountains? And the writer even criticizes trains?? What the hell??

I wish we could take all these people trolling and show them how things were before and how much better hopefully things will be once these projects are completed. It's sickening to hear non-muslims yaking on and on about preserving Makkah and not expanding the Mosque. Why? Are you going to visit those sites? Are you going to suffer when the Mosque cannot handle the millions more that are expected in the future as pilgrims? No!!

And, also as a muslim and as a muslim that has been to Makkah tens (if not hundreds) of times, NO I AM NOT OFFENDED by these developments. For me these cannot happen soon enough so people that come from really far away places, people that are old and feeble can come for pilgrimage and live in comfort. So that people actually find space inside the Mosque that they came from so far away to visit. The muslim population of the world is growing rapidly and so is the number of pilgrims. I am sorry people are crying over some ottoman fort and whatever historical treasure they can see without ever visiting the city but ultimately Makkah is for worship and worshippers and that is what it needs to be designed and prepared for.
+1
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:19 AM   #6762
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Originally Posted by gohorns View Post
it is completely biased. Where in the article does the writer bring up the argument for these developments? There is no opposing view at all. Where is the balance?
Nicolai Ouroussoff is the NY Times architecture critic, and this was a critique, which is a type of opinion piece where someone with an education on the topic (in this case architecture) presents his opinion. It doesn't have to be balanced. It just has to present an argument, and give reasons why he came to that conclusion. In this case, he's making to arguments: First, that this building is inferior architecturally to other buildings in Saudi Arabia. Not only that, but taken by itself, it is a very poor design not well suited to a building of such size.

The second argument is that very little thought is being given to what's being destroyed to make way for these, and other buildings. They're destroying historic structures, views, livelihood, and the character of the city itself. Ouroussoff doesn't explicitly say this is the wrong thing to do, he's presenting the minority opinion, and stating the consequences of the will of the majority. You and I are left to balance that with what we already know about Mecca and decide for ourselves whether or not it is a good thing.

I don't really care either way, I have no intention of setting foot inside Saudi Arabia ever, never mind Mecca itself. What that Saudis do with their cities is their right and is of no consequence to me. However, the Clock Tower still a fugly, kitschy building.

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thats not called good journalism.
It's not journalism. It's criticism. He's judging the building and it's architectural merit and impact on its surroundings. Surely, your local news have editorials and critiques by experts of their respective topics, do they not? Sometimes, it's a positive review. In this case, he "panned" it.

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it only shows his hatred towards Saudi Arabia.
Quite the opposite. He demonstrates considerable concern for the locals who have lived in Mecca, but must move to make way for these buildings.
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Last edited by STR; December 31st, 2010 at 10:27 AM.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:57 AM   #6763
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Herewegoagain, the Nejdi Sauds are trying to distort "Hejaz's cultural heritage". LOL. Yeah, it's been a while..
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Old December 31st, 2010, 11:44 AM   #6764
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Relax guys, this building sucks as many other buildings, but, since it's bigger, it's like if it's shouting out loud how ugly it is.
Serious architects and critics laugh when they look at it and it will never make into a decent architecture book, unless to make fun of it...
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Old December 31st, 2010, 08:39 PM   #6765
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Originally Posted by Annibale View Post
Relax guys, this building sucks as many other buildings, but, since it's bigger, it's like if it's shouting out loud how ugly it is.
Serious architects and critics laugh when they look at it and it will never make into a decent architecture book, unless to make fun of it...
It could make the cover of the world's worst architecture though.

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Originally Posted by AndrewJM3D View Post
They wish, I think they are trying to create a Holy Las Vegas although bigger and tackier.
Yeah - I hear they are bringing in an Elvis impersonator.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:21 PM   #6766
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30 posts and your trolling already
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:24 PM   #6767
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Originally Posted by aswalli View Post
It could make the cover of the world's worst architecture though.



Yeah - I hear they are bringing in an Elvis impersonator.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:28 PM   #6768
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30 posts and your trolling already
i was thinking the same thing wallaahi
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Old December 31st, 2010, 11:24 PM   #6769
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I suspect that the majority of people who visit this thread are interested in seeing photos and information to let us know how the project is progressing. I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion regarding the design and architecture that is taking shape and there's nothing wrong with expressing dislike for it but I don't understand why anyone would keep whining about it to such an extent that it riles up everyone who likes it as I do and we all end up wasting our time reading many worthless posts instead of being updated on the latest progress. If you don't like it, that's fine, but why don't you follow the projects that you do like instead of complaining about this one?
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Old January 1st, 2011, 01:23 AM   #6770
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Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I suspect that the majority of people who visit this thread are interested in seeing photos and information to let us know how the project is progressing. I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion regarding the design and architecture that is taking shape and there's nothing wrong with expressing dislike for it but I don't understand why anyone would keep whining about it to such an extent that it riles up everyone who likes it as I do and we all end up wasting our time reading many worthless posts instead of being updated on the latest progress. If you don't like it, that's fine, but why don't you follow the projects that you do like instead of complaining about this one?
+1000000000
Very very well articulated.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 01:42 AM   #6771
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Originally Posted by Mesch View Post
Herewegoagain, the Nejdi Sauds are trying to distort "Hejaz's cultural heritage". LOL. Yeah, it's been a while..
Don't forget the Nejdi Bin Ladins.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 01:44 AM   #6772
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Originally Posted by aswalli View Post
Agreed.



Absolutely.

I actually took this up with UNESCO who unfortunately informed that the Sauds have refused to submit their premier sites of Islamic and world heritage within their geographic boundaries to the global list of world heritage. Their statement was that as the country itself is not making any efforts to preserve - and in fact is making major efforts to destroy such as to maximize profit - UNESCO cannot do anything.
This isn't true; they've already submitted three sites.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 02:00 AM   #6773
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Originally Posted by HiJazzey View Post
Sami Angawi is Makkawi.

The article is spot on. Sultan bin Salman's quote tells you all you need to know about their attitudes towards the Hijaz's cultural heritage.
I recently visited. Once you're nearby, the building is not quite as imposing or distracting as I thought it'd be. Once I started going around the Kaaba, I didn't take much notice of it. Nobody else seemed to be paying much attention to it either. I think that's what Prince Sultan was trying to say. Muslims are very ritualistic. As long as they do/say everything in their little "How to do Umra" pamphlet, they're happy. I don't think much has changed inside the Mosque since the tower was erected. The article also seemed to miss the point that even rich people who own condos in these high rises will still have to go down and mingle in their ihrams with everyone else around the Kaaba and in the Masaa. How this bears on his attitude to "Hijazi culture" is beyond me. He just submitted Old Jeddah to UNESCO. That's unfortunately more than can be said for Old Riyadh or Old Ha'il, which no longer exist. The biggest threat to Old Jeddah has been certain Jeddah natives themselves who would have loved to tear everything down and start making some moolah.

Anyway, I don't like this building. It's ugly, it's tacky, it's disrespectful and sends a wrong message. They should have built this sort of thing in Jeddah instead. I have it on good authority that the King himself is ambivalent about these high rises, but there are stronger interests at work here. But let's not pretend that there was some sort of charming medieval "old city" standing in its place. The original Mecca was destroyed a long, long time ago. The buildings being cleared to make way for the latest expansions are not much older than the ones now being built. It was inevitable in order to expand the mosque. Expansion of the Two Mosques is not a new concept, and it didn't even start with Al Saud, as I'm sure you know, and it would probably have occurred without them.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 03:12 AM   #6774
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Clock Tower in Mecca draws criticism

image hosted on flickr

By IBTimes Staff Reporter | December 31, 2010 2:31 AM EST

The recent architectural developments surrounding the Grand Mosque in Mecca, regarded as the holiest site of the Muslim world, particularly in connection with the recently developed Royal Mecca Clock Tower have sparked off heated debates.

Some regard them as "architectural absurdity", some as a sham to the age-old local customs and traditions of the Islam community - new architectural developments in and around the city have been drawing the attention of the world and raising speculations on the motive behind the constructions.

Officials of the Saudi government however maintain that the constructional changes are essential to accommodate the ever-increasing pilgrims that come to visit the Holy place.

But the high prices that people have to pay for the exclusive towers make prompted questions if officials were really working towards promoting the Hajj pilgrimage or whether it is all about commercialization.

The Royal Mecca Clock Tower is just one of the many construction projects in the city, states the New York Times. From high-end luxury hotels to train lines; government officials are working on major expansion around the Grand Mosque.

The tower houses an enormous shopping mall, a prayer hall that can accommodate thousands of people and 800 luxury rooms. The entire structure has been designed to resemble the famed four-faced chiming clock, Big Ben, located at the Palace of Westminster in London. Arabic inscriptions and a crescent-shaped spire adorn the top of the tower.

A number of high rises and luxury towers are also being constructed adjoining the tower, all designed to give a contemporary feel.

A direct impact of the architectural developments is that a clear line of demarcation has been established wherein the wealthy can pay homage to the Holy land by merely looking through their windows while the other pilgrims continue with the usual custom of following the crowd.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/9651...ue-big-ben.htm
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Old January 1st, 2011, 03:23 AM   #6775
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Roukaya19, we don't need more criticism from western news outlets, i think we had enough....
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Old January 1st, 2011, 03:31 AM   #6776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gohorns View Post
Yeah no kidding!!

That NYT article is completely BS. It is criticism for the sake of criticism and it is completely biased. Where in the article does the writer bring up the argument for these developments? There is no opposing view at all. Where is the balance? I am disappointed with the NY Times. Where is the mention of the condition of the old/crumbling buildings that surrounded the Grand Mosque and have been torn down and are being replaced? Where is the mention of the living conditions in them? Where is the mention of how congested Makkah really is and how there is so little space to build because of the mountains? And the writer even criticizes trains?? What the hell??

I wish we could take all these people trolling and show them how things were before and how much better hopefully things will be once these projects are completed. It's sickening to hear non-muslims yaking on and on about preserving Makkah and not expanding the Mosque. Why? Are you going to visit those sites? Are you going to suffer when the Mosque cannot handle the millions more that are expected in the future as pilgrims? No!!

And, also as a muslim and as a muslim that has been to Makkah tens (if not hundreds) of times, NO I AM NOT OFFENDED by these developments. For me these cannot happen soon enough so people that come from really far away places, people that are old and feeble can come for pilgrimage and live in comfort. So that people actually find space inside the Mosque that they came from so far away to visit. The muslim population of the world is growing rapidly and so is the number of pilgrims. I am sorry people are crying over some ottoman fort and whatever historical treasure they can see without ever visiting the city but ultimately Makkah is for worship and worshippers and that is what it needs to be designed and prepared for.
Everyones got their own opinion man I woudlnt get too upset over what some fag in the new york times said.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 06:30 AM   #6777
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Roukaya19, we don't need more criticism from western news outlets, i think we had enough....
Sorry brother, I understand you don't like it. There is some article running on with bad critics since Nicolai Ouroussoff the architecture critic of the New York times opened is mouth! ... The article I posted is not the worst. But we know it's not the first time ppl do critics on the project. It's a part of the reality. There is a other one I saw on the net ...reeeeeeeally bad. I hope nobody will post it.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 07:05 AM   #6778
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Everyones got their own opinion man I woudlnt get too upset over what some fag in the new york times said.
you should watch your language.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this thread is too missed up, it certainly needs some cleaning.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 07:57 AM   #6779
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yes don't use the word fag, mesch here is one of them , you can call him a "FREAK BITCH" thu.

-_-
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Old January 1st, 2011, 07:58 AM   #6780
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thanks Roukaya19, i always love your posts anyway :p

i hope out camera man in makkah is all right after all this rain, we need some updated it should look cool under the train
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