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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:26 AM   #781
malec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendolasco View Post
shame is the only word we can say...
binladin family is building this? they can ask some relative...to knock down this monster, they know how can do it
Please avoid comments like this.

Seriously though, I think we've heard enough of this debate for now.
Walli, you've said your point well enough by now so no need to keep repeating it.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:43 AM   #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malec View Post
Please avoid comments like this.

Seriously though, I think we've heard enough of this debate for now.
Walli, you've said your point well enough by now so no need to keep repeating it.
I'm relly sorry, I don't want to offend anyone, but I think that I can stay silent seeing tis shit
..so I've told my point of you, I'll stay outside this forum, goodbye

Last edited by pendolasco; September 19th, 2007 at 12:52 AM.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 02:04 AM   #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malec View Post
Please avoid comments like this.
People have the right to freedom of speech, and we've seen what the family values of Bin Laden construction have done to other items of historical importance, such as in Afghanistan. If you have a counter point, you should make it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by malec View Post
Seriously though, I think we've heard enough of this debate for now.
Walli, you've said your point well enough by now so no need to keep repeating it.
Actually - previously I did not know that this specific site housed an ancient Ottoman castle. Someone else brought this up, and it was an important point. [oddly, it was a project supporter, stating how expensive the transformation must have been]

You can see from the responses from several folks interested in construction, architecture and planning that this was news to them, and it made a difference in their view of the project.

Significant underlying points such as what has been discussed recently should not simply be pushed aside and weighted equally with other menial points. Some things require and demand more focus.

There is no doubt that this building is an icon. What that icon represents is not something the supporters should be shy of - trying to sweep it under the rug won't make it disappear!
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Old September 19th, 2007, 02:05 AM   #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendolasco View Post
I'm relly sorry, I don't want to offend anyone, but I think that I can stay silent seeing tis shit
..so I've told my point of you, I'll stay outside this forum, goodbye
You did not offend anyone. I think there are numerous people who are reading this forum to appreciate frankness and honesty!
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Old September 19th, 2007, 02:33 AM   #785
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Lucky the Abraj Al-Bait is a cool building, but it seems to me that historical buildings should be preserved. You don't burn down old and unique books because you need place, even for pilgrims or else. History is more important than religion, I think.

I don't get this argument of space. Wasn't there any building carrying less history to destroy in order to build skyscrapers?
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Old September 19th, 2007, 03:16 AM   #786
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POST NUMBER 786

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krom View Post
Lucky the Abraj Al-Bait is a cool building, but it seems to me that historical buildings should be preserved. You don't burn down old and unique books because you need place, even for pilgrims or else. History is more important than religion, I think.

I don't get this argument of space. Wasn't there any building carrying less history to destroy in order to build skyscrapers?
There absolutely was other land - the built-up area of Mecca is only about 3 miles radius around the Kaaba. Something could have been constructed on the desert lands within that type of distance. All one would have then needed was a carefully thought out transportation system.

One has to remember that Saudi Arabia, its regime and the wahabi tradition that drives it, are all very knew phenomena within the Muslim world. Their traditions and beliefs, while presented as authentic and original, are actually very new, and make most Muslims scratch their heads. The undercurrents of these three involve removing of history, particularly that which demonstrates diversity of tradition, architecture as well as culture itself.

Here is an interesting excerpt within the context of the on-going discussions, referencing a time when the Ottomans controlled the area:
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/p..._of_kaaba.html

---
Ottoman rulers regarded themselves not as the rulers of Mecca and Medina, but rather as its servants. Therefore, ever since the time of Sultan Selim II, Ottoman rulers employed the title of Hadimu’l- Haramain Shareefain, or “servant of Mecca and Medina.”

<snip>

During all this architectural work, great care was taken not to construct anything taller than the Kaaba itself. During the construction of the Hijaz railway, Sultan Abdulhamid II had special tracks laid down that would reduces the noise from trains.
---

For all you blossoming architects, planners and designers out there, don't let anyone tell you that context and history are not part of your trade. They absolutely are.

BTW - for those interested in architecture in the Islamic world, there was an awesome show on BBC World recently that someone has posted on the web. It includes some snips of Lord Norman Foster also. Have a look-see:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z...rchit_creation

Last edited by walli; September 19th, 2007 at 07:26 AM.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 06:20 AM   #787
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walli, why don't you go to skybar forum (For those who have nothing better to do) and start a thread about how the saudis are destroying history and leave this thread for us to discuss this project.

I'm not sure what point are you trying to address but for your information the castle is meaninless to Muslims and it represents an era of oppression and occupation to Saudis. I remember few years back how most Saudis were happy that the government decided to demolish it. There was an online pettition started by some Turks. Few days later Saudis started a poll in a popular discussoin website and the support for demolishing was huge. After all it's more important to build rooms for 300,000 people annually than a preserving a castle for few thousands tourists. People go to Mecca for one reason, praying; not sight seeing. There's online ONE mecca and thousands of castles...

anywasy walli, you have spammed this thread with 30 posts already -please stop-. When i visit this thread and go to the last page, i expect to read dicussions and opinions and updates about the structure itself; not your copy-paste highlited pre historic hatred articles....
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Old September 19th, 2007, 07:24 AM   #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riyadhi View Post
I'm not sure what point are you trying to address but for your information the castle is meaninless to Muslims and it represents an era of oppression and occupation to Saudis.
Actually - that castle was there to protect the Kaaba, and as such is part of the Kaaba's history. There was no such thing as 'occupation of Saudi Arabia' as the Saud family was not known back then. You should know your own history!

Also, you have equated Muslims to Saudis in your comment. As you would have seen in the recent links I posted, numerous Muslims urged for Saudi to respect Muslim history and not destroy the Kaaba's heritage, but the Saudis did not listen.

Also, Riyadhi - could you translate Saudi guy's comments to English for us?
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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:14 PM   #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walli View Post
People have the right to freedom of speech, and we've seen what the family values of Bin Laden construction have done to other items of historical importance, such as in Afghanistan. If you have a counter point, you should make it!



Actually - previously I did not know that this specific site housed an ancient Ottoman castle. Someone else brought this up, and it was an important point. [oddly, it was a project supporter, stating how expensive the transformation must have been]

You can see from the responses from several folks interested in construction, architecture and planning that this was news to them, and it made a difference in their view of the project.

Significant underlying points such as what has been discussed recently should not simply be pushed aside and weighted equally with other menial points. Some things require and demand more focus.

There is no doubt that this building is an icon. What that icon represents is not something the supporters should be shy of - trying to sweep it under the rug won't make it disappear!
I'm not trying to brush aside anything but I don't feel this is the thread that all this discussion should go in since this particular section of SSC is mostly for updates on projects, etc. I doubt this issue is just with this particular project either so a thread in the citytalk and urban issues forum would be better.
Just so you don't get the wrong impression I agree with most of what you say. This issue is definitely important and should be discussed but this isn't the right thread.

I don't know much about this whole thing so it'd be better if one of you created the new thread over there.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 01:04 PM   #790
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I do not agree with wali at all. Also, seems that wali never visited Saudi Arabia and that is why he is arguing for nothing really. If you disagree with height of the building, I would understand but if you disagree with demolishing of this castle then what about house of sahabah (friends of prophet (PBUH)) and all historic buildings? If Saudi gov, kept these buildings, number of pilgrimes would never be over than 10,000 or maybe even less cause they would stop the expansion of the holy mosque and they would be real obstruction for pilgrimes.

Number of pilgrimes are over than 5 million now and when you go for hajj, you find them sleeping on streets cause no place to go for it. Building such huge buildings will help so much.

I know that you gonna comment about prices again but at least when there are many expensive buildings near the holy mosque, this will help the prices of other area which are far from the holy mosque to be lower.

Now you pay thousands of dollars to live 10 km far from the holy mosque for few days.

Let's drop this useless arguement please and discuss the project.

By the way the tent on al safa tower has been completed 100%
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Last edited by DreaM1981; September 19th, 2007 at 04:11 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 01:33 PM   #791
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Old September 19th, 2007, 01:41 PM   #792
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The problem

The problem is Wali is that we have all these grave and saint worshipping sufis
Every day the Salafia (those that follow the companions and the next few generations) have to turn away sufi grave worshippers from the burial ground of Aisha, etc

If we didn't have to deal with these grave worshipping sufis, then we would be able to keep these beautiful historical buildings and sites. But unfortunately the saudis are forbidden from preventing these grave worshippers into the holy sites , and so because of these few bad apples we get to loose these historical sites

And I think it is really innapropriate to hijack this thread to push your agenda.
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Old September 20th, 2007, 04:04 AM   #793
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DreaM,

Is there any significance for the new height number (595)?
I just looked up the dates and I found that it's the date when the prophet married married Khadijah -not an important event really!-
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Old September 20th, 2007, 08:44 PM   #794
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No Riyadhi, this is not the first increment of height... after 579 M, Height has been increased to be 585 M then 592 M and now 595 M but I was in vacation so I could not update you guys.
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Old September 20th, 2007, 08:53 PM   #795
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Very interesting. One of the towers looks like Empire State Building with much more windows. Thanks for posting it!
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Old September 20th, 2007, 09:40 PM   #796
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Very interesting. One of the towers looks like Empire State Building with much more windows. Thanks for posting it!
this one tower is the Hotel Tower with 595m
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Old September 20th, 2007, 10:20 PM   #797
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so in that case i think it's tallest hotel right?
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Old September 20th, 2007, 10:22 PM   #798
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yes, as far as i know it will be the tallest hotel when completed
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Old September 20th, 2007, 10:57 PM   #799
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I belive the offical name of the tallest tower is "Makkah Royal Hotel"
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Old September 20th, 2007, 11:00 PM   #800
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iam sure it's not final.
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