Long Term Railway Ideas and Suggestions

[Awayo]

I wonder how long he'll last this time?

[George Bramwell]

There are some interesting ideas on this thread for a HSR solution into Liverpool. Here is my assessment.

The idea of using Edge Hill is obvious with unfortunate serious flaws. It is good for direct local and regional connections if the Wapping tunnel project is reactivated, taking trains from the east of the city into the central underground section. In this scenario we are back to 1830 with Liverpool's main station outside of the city centre, which was at Crown Street. Having to alight at Edge Hill and take one stop to Lime St by local rail rather defeats the object of inter-city city-centre to city-centre HSR. The inter-city centre to centre journey times are then very poor.

Using Exchange Station as a HSR terminal means a pedestrian tunnel will need to be built linking Moorefields underground station. That is fine for local Merseyrail connections, however precluding regional direct connections which Lime Street mainline offers.

The key to success is having a HSR terminal station with all direct connections to local Merseyrail, regional lines and beyond, at one point in the city centre. This should have occurred when Merseyrail built the Loop and Link tunnels under the city centre in the 1970's. That was very much an expensive partial failure. Liverpool and Birkenhead were to have all terminal stations closed and only one one mainline station used, at Lime St serving all the region, with "direct" urban connections from all over Merseyside. A good idea, but common sense eluded the rail designers.

Only the Wirral was well served in this as the Loop Tunnel was the Wirral Line and Lime St station's underground Merseyrail station was foolishly only on the Wirral Line. Passengers from North and South of Liverpool had to change from the Northern Line to the Wirral Line at Moorefields. Many people from North and South Liverpool use taxis rather than make the change when laden with bags defeating one of the prime objects of project.

Now my assessment given the need to have all connections at one point for HSR and further added value in the rebirth of the Overhead Railway. This ticks all the boxes.

The idea of using the CLC 3-track line is a good one. Major costs are expected in implementing HSR so ideas can run free here. If the HSR came in via Runcorn or Warrington it can be directed down the 3-track line and tunnel, which is fine for two HSR tracks to Central Station. Merseyrail trains could be above on a type of Docklands Light Railway high level track using similar DLR rail stock. At Brunswick this DLR gantry could move off over the Dock Road and continue towards the Pier Head through the core of the south end docks. The Overhead Dock Railway is then reborn. I will be back later on this.

The HSR rail tunnel before Central can drop further underground running under the existing station and terminate further north than the existing Central station, maybe around St John's Gardens or under St.George's Hall, in a new underground HSR terminal station. An underground HSR station between Lime St mainline and Central. Birmingham's HSR station is planned to be underground. Pedestrian tunnels could connect Central Station (Northern & Wirral Lines), Lime St underground Merseyrail station (Wirral Line) and directly into Lime St mainline station. All stations are interconnected as one, maybe using pedestrian moving walkways in long stretches if the call is there.

Back to the Overhead. The overhead railway now could turn into the Wapping tunnel with a branch tunnel into Central Station bored to continue the Northern Line in a northerly direction and also continue directly to Edge Hill and beyond. The overhead section at the Echo Arena could also continue north either in front or behind the Three Graces and into the Central Docks and into Liverpool Waters. It could have a station at the new cruise liner terminal. It could branch into the existing Northern Line around Sandhills. It could maybe branch off and run up the existing Waterloo Tunnel as an extra. Lots of scope here for this elevated section of Merseyrail.

So what does all this give us?

1. A direct city centre HSR station with the vital interconnections to all local Merseyrail Lines and regional lines and beyond.
2. An elevated Dockland Overhead Railway serving the docks again: the south end docks, the Echo Arena, Cruise Liner terminal and the new Liverpool Waters.
3. The new cruise liner terminal could have its own station with a direct HSR connection.

Of course if the Wrexham Line is electrified and run into Liverpool's centre underground section it can use the old James St to Central Station tunnel giving direct HSR connections to parts of North Wales, alighting at Central for HSR. The east, north east and south east of the city can have direct connections if later, or earlier than HSR, the Wapping Tunnel project of joining Edge Hill to Central station is at a last completed and the North Liverpool Extension line at last is used as it was planned to be in the 1970's. Many Liverpool districts will have direct access to HSR, besides the local fast transport offered, not to mention football traffic from these lines depending where the new Liverpool and Everton stadia is built of course.

If the HSR line comes in from Runcorn then I would say it is essential to divert the HSR into the airport covering all bases.

A lot of work indeed, but apart from the new underground HSR station cut into rocks and new elevated Docklands DLR styles of structures most is using updated existing unused rail infrastructure. Much of this is playing catch-up as much of it was scheduled to be constructed in the 1970's. Liverpool Waters will be a success as will HSR as it would have a massive direct catchment area having so many direct local and regional connections. Directing the line into the airport could mean a future HSR link between Manchester and Liverpool airports. Maybe checking in at one airport and taking off at another.

All this, demonstrated to the DfT, will sharpen their wits and give leverage towards Liverpool having a well located new HSR station. The city must do most of the thinking for them. A strong case may prevail.

cheers.

[Chris B]

From the Echo -

Liverpool back on high speed plan

LIVERPOOL is back on the planned £32bn high-speed rail (HS2) network, under a fresh route drawn up by transport chiefs.

Ministers are poised to dump a proposal to slow HS2 trains from London to conventional speed just north of Birmingham, significantly lengthening the journey time.

That plan triggered angry protests from Liverpool MPs, who warned it would hand a huge advantage to better-connected Manchester, in the battle for investment and jobs.

Now a new route will restore the original plan for 225mph trains to run at top-speed most of the way to Liverpool – almost certainly to Crewe – before slowing for the 30-mile pull into Lime Street.

The journey time is now expected to be around 1hr 28mins. Crucially, there would no longer be a 38-minute lag compared with the London-Manchester journey.

From here - http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-31871128/

[Awayo]

We'll see. However, if there is truth to this somewhat vague report, this would be good news also for Chester, west Cheshire, part of our own suburbia in south Wirral and a whole lot of north Wales. Think of that, a line that serves the whole area instead of weirdly bypassing and sidelining absolutely everywhere apart from two points: Leeds and Manchester...

Funny that this is what every other trainline and major road between the Midlands and west Scotland has done previously in history.

[Toadboy]

I'm more pissed off that we'll lose our free gin.

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by Chris B

From the Echo -

From here - http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...0252-31871128/

Good news if it's true, although I presume that's the hypothetical best time, and that some/all services will continue to stop in Crewe and Runcorn, which will make it a bit slower.

[HollyBlack]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

Good news if it's true, although I presume that's the hypothetical best time, and that some/all services will continue to stop in Crewe and Runcorn, which will make it a bit slower.

Hmmm, it says "30-mile pull into Lime Street."
Crewe is more than 30 miles, and South of Crewe more again.
Places previously speculated on for WCML connection are each 20 miles or so - Culcheth, Grappenhall and Weaver Junction (South Runcorn).
30 miles would be Winsford, a novel suggestion to me.

I'm probably reading too much into a vague suggestion. But 30 miles certainly suggests South of the Mersey/Ship Canal.

Liverpool to Manchester airport via Culcheth and Cadishead is about 30 miles but nowhere near Crewe.

[sternslovchild]

Originally Posted by Toadboy

I'm more pissed off that we'll lose our free gin.

Gin? Where?

BTW 34% off Londonmidland trains at the moment on line. BARGAIN

£26.40 for a return to Euston.

[Awayo]

Originally Posted by HollyBlack

Hmmm, it says "30-mile pull into Lime Street."
Crewe is more than 30 miles, and South of Crewe more again.
Places previously speculated on for WCML connection are each 20 miles or so - Culcheth, Grappenhall and Weaver Junction (South Runcorn).
30 miles would be Winsford, a novel suggestion to me.

I'm probably reading too much into a vague suggestion. But 30 miles certainly suggests South of the Mersey/Ship Canal.

Liverpool to Manchester airport via Culcheth and Cadishead is about 30 miles but nowhere near Crewe.

Yep, Holly, doesn't really make much sense does it? It's one of those reports that after reading it you know less than you did before you started.

[Martin S]

Crewe to Liverpool is 33 miles, as the crow flies. The idea of having an HSR connection in the Crewe area is interesting though as that suggests a route to the west of the M6 as opposed to some suggested routes that go to the east of Stoke. It may be that HS2 will run adjacent to the existing WCML through Cheshire.

[KaylaB]

I think after they've finished with the Crossrail boring machines down south they should be moved up north to bore new tunnels under Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham and Glasgow to create tube networks in the major provincial cities on the scale of London Underground. Massive, Massive, public spending on infrastructure projects will create hundreds of thousands of much needed jobs across the country! Put aside £150 Billion, split over these 5 cities. Might take 10 or 15 years to complete, but it will set the transport up in these cities for the next millenia! Put the Great back into Great Britain! This is the only thing BIG enough to slingshot this country out of the worst recession we have ever seen!!! We've got to think BIG! Create jobs! Connect the people!

[sternslovchild]

Mr Branson may have gotten his train set back.

[roddyf]

As the news headline just put it "the decision to hand the franchise to First has been overturned after civil servants admitted getting their sums wrong". What, all of us?! Give us a bad name some of them. Pretty big sum to get wrong

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19809717

[design_man]

From what I've read the franchise system is itself too complex and flawed - and blaming a few civil servants who have been trying to make it work seems a tad convenient. Dig deep enough and you usually find incompetent and greedy consultants from the private sector who have been brought in to help design systems. We'll need to wait and see the outcome, but it may be we are looking at private sector incompetence here, with hapless civil servants just trying to implement a flawed system.

But I do wonder about the idea of "institutional bias" within DfT and the extent to which data can be selected and used to suit its prejudics. That is what Virgin are claiming to exist. And some of us here have long argued that there is an anti-Liverpool bias in DfT, for example in how they specify the franchise agreements (leading to 3 trains an hour from Manchester and only 1 train an hour from Liverpool).... so maybe it's time for Liverpool to ask Government to look into the extent to which DfT models and methods may discriminate against the city.

[Streetlife1]

Originally Posted by sternslovchild

Mr Branson may have gotten his train set back.

At the cost of £100 million to the tapayer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...cost-100m.html

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by design_man

From what I've read the franchise system is itself too complex and flawed - and blaming a few civil servants who have been trying to make it work seems a tad convenient. Dig deep enough and you usually find incompetent and greedy consultants from the private sector who have been brought in to help design systems. We'll need to wait and see the outcome, but it may be we are looking at private sector incompetence here, with hapless civil servants just trying to implement a flawed system.

But I do wonder about the idea of "institutional bias" within DfT and the extent to which data can be selected and used to suit its prejudics. That is what Virgin are claiming to exist. And some of us here have long argued that there is an anti-Liverpool bias in DfT, for example in how they specify the franchise agreements (leading to 3 trains an hour from Manchester and only 1 train an hour from Liverpool).... so maybe it's time for Liverpool to ask Government to look into the extent to which DfT models and methods may discriminate against the city.

I would go along with that DM. If you have been following the discussion we have been having on HS2 on the Transport and Infrastructure forum you will see that the predicted traffic flows from Manchester are six times that from Liverpool. Even the Manchester forummers seem to have no idea how that figure is arrived at, although one has suggested that it might be because they anticipate that many people from the Liverpool area will choose to use Manchester instead.

[aeolian]

Yes - this is something that needs to be urgently challenged. How come Liverpool is missing out on HS2 and getting a third of the frequency on the WCML? Local politicians and media need to fight this.
Missing out on HS2 wont be a minor setback, it will direct the pattern transport spending for the next 180 years if history repeats itself.

Originally Posted by Martin S

I would go along with that DM. If you have been following the discussion we have been having on HS2 on the Transport and Infrastructure forum you will see that the predicted traffic flows from Manchester are six times that from Liverpool. Even the Manchester forummers seem to have no idea how that figure is arrived at, although one has suggested that it might be because they anticipate that many people from the Liverpool area will choose to use Manchester instead.