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Old August 15th, 2005, 11:15 PM   #261
KIWIKAAS
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Chicago right? Awful piece of fwy infrastructure.

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Old August 16th, 2005, 12:08 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlm
/\ You know some people do not actually like to see their cities filled with these massive gray concrete pillars. I would at any time rather have one of these well intergrated cloverleafs that you hate so much. Or even better, build it underground if it's in a city.

I've driven through some of these huge stacks in the states, and they are surely impressive. None European highways can compete with that in, ehhh "impressiveness" (?). But pretty they ain't...atleast not in my book.
May I ask you a question ?
Would you like to build skyscrapers into the ground as well, or is this another story ?
And FYI, those concrete pillars of the Dallas High 5 are anything but gray.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 03:01 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
its a wonderful source called CIA.gov. and don't complain how its inaccurate, trust me, ITS ACCURATE.
I agree it is accurate but does it describe quality?
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Old August 16th, 2005, 03:19 AM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by great prairie
I agree it is accurate but does it describe quality?
Quality? Think about this then. A large proportion of the US figure is completely unpaved, whereas for the UK the unpaved sections add up to a grand total of 0km.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 04:33 AM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyBird
Quality? Think about this then. A large proportion of the US figure is completely unpaved, whereas for the UK the unpaved sections add up to a grand total of 0km.

Why does it matter how many miles of highway there are, the US is a much less dense country.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 04:34 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIWIKAAS
Chicago right? Awful piece of fwy infrastructure.



yup...the dan ryan expressway, I believe.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 04:37 AM   #267
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Tremendous Urban Waste // Back To The Point

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyView
May I ask you a question ?
Would you like to build skyscrapers into the ground as well, or is this another story ?
And FYI, those concrete pillars of the Dallas High 5 are anything but gray.
First, an aside.

What strikes me from all these pictures is that urban highways seem to be just a tremendous waste of space and resources -- never mind the pollution and the hidden resource consumption from the production of the cars, concrete, etc. in the factories. Some of the highways in the picture take up hundreds of acres of land -- and that doesn't include all the parking lots, arterial and secondary roads.

What is wrong with taking convenient, well-designed transit and walking from one place to another? Keep to a minimum roads and highways in urban areas for delivery trucks, ambulances, taxis, and other critical uses. Besides, people can interact with each other on the streets rather than being isolated from each other in a bubble of private space fortified by a metal shell.

In rural areas, cars make sense. Intercity highways help to make freight transport cheaper and more flexible than rail. You can still own cars and leave them at the edge of the city -- take a train to a parking lot at the edge of the city so you can go drive around the country and camp with it if you want to.


Now, back to the point:

There are now 13 pages to this thread and while there are some good insights, many of the discussions have been is just flag waving crap between Europe and America, and in one case, Europe vs. the UK, etc. All kinds of factoids are thrown around, much of it out of context and outright irrevelant.

Part of the problem is the title of the thread itself -- "better than". The question is better than what? Pavement surface for a smooth ride, neater markings, better signage, easier driver navigation, better safety, better night driving (remarkable no one talked about the difference between driving at night in Europe vs. driving at night in the US -- and there is a difference), better land coverage, shorter travel times, investment / maintenance dollar productivity...the list of criteria goes on. So we end up talking apples and oranges.

And from my point of view as a third party outsider, it is funny from the cultural differences (and biases) that get reflected in the discussions. Some of the Americans invariably show how "great" they are by showing how BIG their highways are -- number of lanes on Seattle I-5 or Los Angeles I-10, that high speed North Dallas interchange , while the European photos invariably show how neat the markings and signage and the deliberately designed integration with the surrounding landscape is.

No wonder we can't agree on anything -- it is cultural afterall.

BTW, I've driven on that US75 up to Richardson and Plano from downtown Dallas many times. I can only comment that when I was driving it, it was a frustrating nightmare because of all the construction. Nevertheless, I kept flooring it through the construction curves like everyone else in Dallas whenever I could -- it's a fun slalom. I have yet to drive on it when it's fully finished -- then I will be able to comment on how good it is from a user's perspective (as well as having numbers to measure the engineering goal of processing # cars / hour). While I have no reason to believe that it won't perform as advertised, I do remember driving on I-35 in Austin and I wasn't too thrilled about the high speed off ramps onto the service roads to the roadside commercial plazas -- cars coming off I-35 at over 50 - 60 miles per hour merge with cars that are just turning out of the plaza at 10 mph. I was still in Austin when the local TV crew highlighted the problem showing the accident rate -- particularly I-35 and Mopac area. So it remains to be seen.

Last edited by TO_Joe; August 16th, 2005 at 05:27 AM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 04:48 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TO_Joe
First, an aside.

What strikes me from all these pictures is that urban highways seem to be just a tremendous waste of space and resources -- never mind the pollution and the hidden resource consumption from the production of the cars, concrete, etc. in the factories. Some of the highways in the picture take up hundreds of acres of land -- and that doesn't include all the parking lots, arterial and secondary roads.

What is wrong with taking convenient, well-designed transit and walking from one place to another? Keep to a minimum roads and highways in urban areas for delivery trucks, ambulances, taxis, and other critical uses. Besides, people can interact with each other on the streets rather than being isolated from each other in a bubble of private space fortified by a metal shell.

In rural areas, cars make sense. Intercity highways help to make freight transport cheaper and more flexible than rail. You can still own cars and leave them at the edge of the city -- take a train to a parking lot at the edge of the city so you can go drive around the country and camp with it if you want to.
I think everyone realizes this, but I still can't deny that I love driving on city highways, it's quite joyful.

Quote:
Now, back to the point:

There are now 13 pages to this thread and while there are some good insights, many of the discussions have been is just flag waving crap between Europe and America, and in one case, Europe vs. the UK, etc. All kinds of factoids are thrown around, much of it out of context and outright irrevelant.

Part of the problem is the title of the thread itself -- "better than". The question is better than what? Pavement surface for a smooth ride, neater markings, better signage, easier driver navigation, better safety, better night driving (remarkable no one talked about the difference between driving at night in Europe vs. driving at night in the US -- and there is a difference), better land coverage, shorter travel times, investment / maintenance dollar productivity...the list of criteria goes on. So we end up talking apples and oranges.

And from my point of view as a third party outsider, it is funny from the cultural differences (and biases) that get reflected in the discussions. Some of the Americans invariably show how "great" they are by showing how BIG their highways are -- number of lanes on Seattle I-5 or Los Angeles I-10, that high speed North Dallas interchange , while the European photos invariably show how neat the markings and signage and the deliberately designed integration with the surrounding landscape is.
very good points.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 04:59 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
its a wonderful source called CIA.gov. and don't complain how its inaccurate, trust me, ITS ACCURATE.
lol

The problem is, that they included this kind of roads:




So 1000 km of this road counts as much as 1000 km of that road:




They are all considered as highways in the statistics. This means that the statistic does not give the true capacity of a countries highway network.
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Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Last edited by goschio; August 16th, 2005 at 05:09 AM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 05:21 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by great prairie
I agree it is accurate but does it describe quality?
uh, no, im not even talking about quality. im commenting to that guy titeness, who made a completely false comment, which i very clearly proved innacurate a few posts ago.

but just fyi, european roads are of better quality too buddy. if u can drive over a gap in the UNPAVED concrete every 5-10 meters, your road is a turd. and thats what the roads are in america. i've lived here all my life, so i have every right to make this comment.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 05:24 AM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio
lol

The problem is, that they included this kind of roads:




So 1000 km of this road counts as much as 1000 km of that road:




They are all considered as highways in the statistics. This means that the statistic does not give the true capacity of a countries highway network.
if both the US and European statistics included these roads, then the amounts rose evenly and the numbers remain unchanged.

and if you have any clue of what the general definiton of highway is, it means all of the main traffic arteries of the country. No secondary roads. only motorways and primary non-motorway routes. so that road you showed me in your first pic aren't included.

Last edited by OettingerCroat; August 16th, 2005 at 05:54 AM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 05:38 AM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat

but just fyi, european roads are of better quality too buddy. if u can drive over a gap in the UNPAVED concrete every 5-10 meters, your road is a turd. and thats what the roads are in america. i've lived here all my life, so i have every right to make this comment.
I have too and your dead wrong.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 06:01 AM   #273
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OK, explain to me WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT THEM. HEIGHT SURE AINT A REASON ITS BETTER.

you measure if its good by how many times you come home with a sore back and chipped teeth from the piece-of-shit roads you've been driving on.

have you ever even driven around Germany or Holland, and seen what a road is? roads aren't tall. roads are smooth
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Old August 16th, 2005, 06:32 AM   #274
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if u can drive over a gap in the UNPAVED concrete every 5-10 meters, your road is a turd. and thats what the roads are in america
this is where you're dead wrong
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Old August 16th, 2005, 08:05 AM   #275
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ok fine. thats what NEARLY ALL the roads are in america. here in SF, i shouldn't need to worry about breaking a wheel on my car becuase my commute to work takes over 15000 gaps in the concrete.

THATS JUST THE WAY FREEWAYS ARE BUILT IN AMERICA. they are made from concrete slabs 10-12" thick, placed one after the other. about 75% of these roads have NO pavement. originally, the roads were great, but now, through schorching summers and freezing winters, the roads deformed, the gaps widenned, and the roads are turds.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 08:22 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TO_Joe
First, an aside.
What strikes me.......So it remains to be seen.
Well written TO_Joe. I think that sums up most of this thread very well.

@ SkyView: No of course I don't. I love skyscrapers. But I don't like the look of huge stacks inside cities, to me that just doesn't do it.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 08:49 AM   #277
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i agree with you 100%
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Old August 16th, 2005, 08:51 AM   #278
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What do you guys think of this interchange? Its supposed to handle 270,000 cars per day when completed. Not Texas sized but sufficient I think.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 10:33 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OettingerCroat
if both the US and European statistics included these roads, then the amounts rose evenly and the numbers remain unchanged.

and if you have any clue of what the general definiton of highway is, it means all of the main traffic arteries of the country. No secondary roads. only motorways and primary non-motorway routes. so that road you showed me in your first pic aren't included.
Thats exactly the problem! CIA just took the numbers from the national statistics and called them "highway". And in germany for example nobody uses the term "highway" because there is no definition for that.

The official infrastructure rundown for roads in Germany reads like that:

motorway = 11 800 km (Autobahn) - paid by the federal government
federal roads = 41 200 km (Bundesstrasse) - paid by the federal government
state roads = 86 800 km (Landstrasse) - paid by the state governemnt
district roads = 91 000 km (Kreisstrasse) - paid by the discrtict administration
total = 230 800 km

Those are political definitions. And the difference between included in the "highway" list or not depends on political issues and not so much on capacity. There are community roads (not included in the german "highway" list) which have the capacity of a motorway.

And a district road (Kreisstrasse) can be realy little like that. And yes, its included in the german "highway" statistic.


What I want to say with that is, that those numbers presented at CIA.com are in no way comparable because every country has its own statistics about that topic and CIA just copies and pastes that.
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Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 10:39 AM   #280
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Between, here are some more german highways aka kreisstrasse:


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Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Last edited by goschio; August 16th, 2005 at 10:46 AM.
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