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Old October 6th, 2006, 01:54 PM   #701
Bikkel
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The NL should have less motorways! The countryside has been completely wasted! Besides car drivers become egotistical twats, and given our already poor manners, we became even more annoying as a nation.

You can easily cycle, or even run from say Rotterdam to The Hague, but tosser little dutch car drivers are too lazy to use their legs. Just let 'em rot in their cars and jams. People drive to the gym
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Old October 6th, 2006, 09:30 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikkel View Post
The NL should have less motorways! The countryside has been completely wasted!
Nonsense.

Only 0,2% of the dutch land area exist of Motorways, and most of them in non-countryside areas.

Even if you count all traffic areas (roads, street, pavements, sidewalks, railroads, airports etc.) you still won't get over 4% of the dutch land area.

For the statistics: over 84,5% of the Dutch area is unbuild. (non build-up area).

But those 0,2% handles over 164 billion travelled kilometers. (141 billion by road)

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; October 6th, 2006 at 09:34 PM. Reason: edit 69% should be 84,5% (i forgot forests and natural areas)
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Old October 7th, 2006, 06:33 PM   #703
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Some highways of Mallorca (A mediterranean island with a population of 800.000 people, though that stat just doubles in summertime as Mallorca is a top European touristic destination)

















You can find more of them here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=215
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Old October 7th, 2006, 10:12 PM   #704
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Wtf?? Are American highways built of concrete?? Must be hell to drive on such roads.
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Old October 8th, 2006, 12:09 AM   #705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuomiPoika View Post
Wtf?? Are American highways built of concrete?? Must be hell to drive on such roads.
Yes, some of americas highways are built using concrete and it is not that bad especially some of the newer highways like 64 here in raleigh are smooth as can be. We have alot of asphalt highways as well tho. Concrete highways are more expensive and have a lifespan twice or 3 times asphalt ones. The concrete "block" highways are pretty rough but i highly doubt they are actually constructed with blocks. I see that its a pretty common concept here that concrete highways are shit when they are actully the higher quality choice of material.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 06:39 AM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
Nonsense.

Only 0,2% of the dutch land area exist of Motorways, and most of them in non-countryside areas.

Even if you count all traffic areas (roads, street, pavements, sidewalks, railroads, airports etc.) you still won't get over 4% of the dutch land area.

For the statistics: over 84,5% of the Dutch area is unbuild. (non build-up area).

But those 0,2% handles over 164 billion travelled kilometers. (141 billion by road)
That's a popular sermon with the orthodox automobile people. Juggle up a few very doubtful figures - no motorway can be reached without secondary roads and there you go. The NL have very poor air, is noisy and lit everywhere. You live in quiet Zwolle, not next to the A10 in Amsterdam-West.
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Old October 10th, 2006, 07:11 AM   #707
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The problem is that there aren't so much good secondary roads. Everyone has to use the motorway, that is why they are so busy.

But in recent years, there are more and more overcrowded motorways, outside the Randstad region.

You say quiet Zwolle, i don't know if you visit this city, but it isn't so quiet as you think. We have long traffic jams every day, reaching over 20kms/13miles in length each day. All roads to Zwolle are congested. For example, the A28 motorway handles the same amount of traffic as the A10-North or the A12 near Zoetermeer....
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Old October 11th, 2006, 06:52 AM   #708
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Give it a rest. When you claim Zwolle handles the same amount of traffic as Amsterdam, you just fully disqualified yourself there.
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Old October 11th, 2006, 01:02 PM   #709
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That is just a fact, you can download data from the RWS website, if you like.

But here's a fact, counts from 2005

A10 Schellingwoude S115 - Zeeburg S114: 103.121 (weekworkday)

A28 Knooppunt Hattemerbroek - Zwolle-Zuid 115.243 (weekworkday)

Know the figures, than talk.
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Old October 13th, 2006, 09:21 PM   #710
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And how many people live on the river IJssel between Hattemerbroek and Zwolle-Zuid. Never noticed any housing on the bridge there!

So, you claim traffic around Zwolle equals that of Amsterdam then

Secondary roads in NL aren't good enough? Well, find somewhere better then! Jeebus, you are blind!

And only A28 leads to beautiful Zwolle, whilst A1, A2, A6,A7, A8, A9, A10 etc lead to Amsterdam. No wonder the one road leading to Zwolle is busy at the sole bridge across the river IJssel.

Besides I mentioned Amsterdam-West, not East like Schellingwoude is.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 12:41 AM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikkel View Post
Secondary roads in NL aren't good enough? Well, find somewhere better then! Jeebus, you are blind!
Try to drive from Utrecht or Almere to Amsterdam, without using a motorway. That's almost impossible, and it takes so much time if you do so.

Unlike other countries, the Dutch motorwaynetwork has been build, while there were not so much long-distance non-motorways. So, we have an extensive (overcrowded) motorwaynetwork, and a relatively small non-motorwaynetwork.

In Germany, they did that better. They have an extensive B-road network, with a lot of "ortsumgehungen" (Bypasses or ringroads), but here in NL, you have to drive through every little town to reach a larger city. So if you have to travel more than 20kms, there is mostly some motorway nearby, so you take that motorway, instead of those N-roads through every city, with only 60 and 80 speed limits, and 50 within buildup areas.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 12:45 AM   #712
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Besides, in relation to the A10-west, north of exit Geuzenveld, the amount of traffic between Geuzenveld and Coenplein is the same as the A28 through Zwolle.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 01:26 AM   #713
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I'm sorry but you've lost the plot! The NL has loads of roads, more than Germany, you simply know too little.

Your Zwolle has 1 A28, Amsterdam has about a dozen of equally busy A-motorways.

It'd be a lot easier for you if you'd just admit you're wrong. There are few countries with as much as asfalt and concrete like the NL have.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 01:32 AM   #714
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Right, I read your other reply.

Why would you want to use a secondary road from Utrecht to Almere or to Amsterdam? Secondary roads simply aren't designed to cover such commutes.

Take the train instead. Your replies puzzle me.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 01:58 AM   #715
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I agree on your sub...
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Old October 14th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #716
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But since, i don't think we can agree on it, let's get back ontopic.

The American freeway network exists from a grid. Europe's doesn't. In that way, the European E-numbers are quite useless, since such a numbering only works with some kind of a grid network.

But the European motorway network is much denser than the american one, especially in Western Europe, but in central Europe, a motorway network is forming too (Croatia, Slovenia, Czech, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia etc).

But inside metropolitan areas, i think the US system of a grid or with a beltway is better. In Europe, there is no space inside agglomerations for an extensive motorway-network, so in theory, US congestion should be lesser than the European one.

Countries with extreme congestion: France, UK, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Austria.
Of course, there are other cities outside these countries with congestion.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 07:16 PM   #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
But since, i don't think we can agree on it, let's get back ontopic.

The American freeway network exists from a grid. Europe's doesn't. In that way, the European E-numbers are quite useless, since such a numbering only works with some kind of a grid network.

But the European motorway network is much denser than the american one, especially in Western Europe, but in central Europe, a motorway network is forming too (Croatia, Slovenia, Czech, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia etc).

But inside metropolitan areas, i think the US system of a grid or with a beltway is better. In Europe, there is no space inside agglomerations for an extensive motorway-network, so in theory, US congestion should be lesser than the European one.

Countries with extreme congestion: France, UK, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Austria.
Of course, there are other cities outside these countries with congestion.

And I really am glad that in most European cities are to agglomerated to lead highways right through them. I dont know how people can be glad to have such monster highways cutting cities into little pieces and degrading the quality of life considerably for everyone near. As long there are alternatives keep those highways out of the towns.

Building highways never is a solution against congestions, (as long as you dont want to built dozen lanes monsters). By creating highways you create just more traffic.

One could see that very well at the Südosttangente in Vienna. It was once thought to be the solution to the congestions and now is the very center of them. Its effect was just to unnecessarely foster the sprawl-creation.

I am glad that cars are a bad choice in Vienna to get around. That makes public means of transport to be the first choice of getting around. And as consequence this public transport system is a real good one.


Highways are a necessary evil. One needs them, but one should not obey the maxim of ever greater even if it is allready a dense network.
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Old October 15th, 2006, 04:34 PM   #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Building highways never is a solution against congestions, (as long as you dont want to built dozen lanes monsters). By creating highways you create just more traffic.
That traffic comes from elswere, mostly on alternative routes through cities and towns. You better have more traffic and pollution on a motorway, than inside towns, and villages, were people are living. So the amount of traffic on a motorway rises, but decrease somewhere else.

You can see that on the A13 near Delft. A lot of traffic drives through towns and nature areas, because the A13 is more like a parking lot. Once the A4 is completed, you have new traffic there, but no more inconvenience about traffic on roads that aren't designed for that much traffic.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 11:30 PM   #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emutiny View Post
Yes, some of americas highways are built using concrete
Do you know if there are highways outside the states built of concrete?
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Old October 20th, 2006, 11:38 PM   #720
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There are some on Spain on Asturias.
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