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Old March 24th, 2009, 08:27 PM   #301
ChrisZwolle
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Quote:
Breathing test, to make sure you are not drunk.
Simply let another breathe, en then drive yourself...
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Old March 24th, 2009, 08:56 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Simply let another breathe, en then drive yourself...
this trick doestn work with the seatbelt check:

the engine doesnt start with unfastened seatbelt, so the undrunk helper have to fasten it, but when s/he wants to get out s/he stops the engine by unfastening the belt...


oops, the seat belt check can be cheated too:
you can fasten it before you get into the seat, and you can simply sit on it...


I think this safety incerasing thing wont be an easy task cause the stupidity and the ingenuity is infinite...
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Old March 24th, 2009, 10:51 PM   #303
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Simply the social insurance or what is it called shouldn't pay for the hospital treatment of those, who suffered an accident with a non-fastened seatbelt. I think only such measures could reduce the injuries, at least here in Hungary, since most of the deaths and injuries are because of the lack of using seatbelts. But with fining for speeding at a forgotten 30 km/h sign from a construction 3 months ago, the accident numbers won't be reduced.
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:18 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
and i think you are a nazi
Real mature... Hopefully you're not old enough to drive...

The worst thing about arguments like this is that they'll give the control freaks all the arguments they need to introduce a completely driver-free controlled road system. Average speed measuring speed cameras already excist, as does GPS systems with speed limits, autopilots and a bunch of other pieces of control equipment. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that such systems may be made mandatory and used to remove the driver from the driving altogether. And it will happen, unless we're able to root out the idiot drivers and accept less invasive means of control.

I'm not going to elaborate on this part of the subject much further, since I prefer to discuss real safety measures with serious people.
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #305
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But with fining for speeding at a forgotten 30 km/h sign from a construction 3 months ago, the accident numbers won't be reduced.
I totally agree. That's got nothing to do with safety or sensible traffic management.
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:26 PM   #306
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These guys convinced me. I used to be a safety nazi when it came to speeding cameras, but not anymore
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:33 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Total View Post
So... if moving tree and standing tree have same effect...

I am in my car, standing, in neutral, with brakes on (just to be detailed), and tree hits me with 70 kph... nothing happened?

Or lets say i am in a car moving at 30 kph, and hit a car head-on that was driving in opposite direction with speed of 70 kph it is same as i hit standing tree with 30 kph?!?

I mean, for non-relativistic speed, you can look situation of head on collision from perspective of side beholder (each object has its speed) or from perspective of one object, where other object is only moving with sum speed of both speeds the side beholder sees... (i guess there is simpler way of explaining it)

But all in all, we agree you have to get rid of kinetic energy which is: (m*v^2)/2... or i am wrong from that point?
You guys should learn some basic physics....

The point is that the momentum, i.e. mass-velocity product is always preserved. I.e., if you have one car of mass m1 traveling at speed v1 crashing into another car/tree with mass m2 and (negative) speed v2, we always have:
m1*v1-m2*v2=(m1+m2)*V,
where V is the speed of the system immediately after the crash.

Hence, if you crash into another car with similar speed and mass, the final speed will be V=0. Assuming that the cars are identical, they will then both absorb an energy of m1*v1˛/2.

If that other "car" in fact is a solid tree, which wont absorb any of your energy, your car still has to absorb m1*v1˛/2 as the final speed will be zero. This is of course because the tree is connected to the ground which probably has very large masss compared with your car.... However, on a modern highway there should not be such trees along the roads, and light poles and sign posts should give way if you crash into them, or better be behind a well designed crash barrier, in which case the absorbed energy of your car would be significant less. Note that the absorbed energy in this case scales with your vehicle's mass. This is why some rather heavy, but rather badly designed cars, like Crysler Voyager (at least last time I checked), manage to do fairly badly at crash tests.

Now to the worst case: If vehicle two is a heavy truck, the final speed is close to -v2, and vehicle 1 has to absorb something like m1*(v1+v2)˛/2 (assuming that the truck is much stiffer than your own vehicle).. I.e., the absorbed energy is close to four times what you get when you hit a tree or another normal car.
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Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; March 24th, 2009 at 11:54 PM.
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:37 PM   #308
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assuming that the truck is much stiffer than your own vehicle
Not to mention heavier...
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Old March 24th, 2009, 11:46 PM   #309
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Not to mention heavier...
Thank you for making that clear. Regarding that flying tree, I would be pretty worried if it aimed at my windscreen.....
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:00 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Thank you for making that clear. Regarding that flying tree, I would be pretty worried if it aimed at my windscreen.....
Agreed. On a slightly more serious note, as you and Ingienřren (I think...) touched upon, one of the most important safety measures is to reduce the injuries sustained if someone ends up off the road at speed. Crash barriers, removing trees and rocks, wide, carefully thought out "exit zones" etc all save lives.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:04 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Simply let another breathe, en then drive yourself...
Sure... Do you think sober people would line up to assist a drunk person to start driving? I certainly hope not.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:25 AM   #312
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That depends how accepted DUI is in a country. For instance, from what I've heard it's more accepted in Belgium than in the Netherlands. I don't think it would be hard to find someone at a party to help you start your car.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:28 AM   #313
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The worst thing is that the state and safety nazis are forever telling us their mantras but don't lift a finger to improve conditions.

Classic cases in point:
- lack of railrod over/underpasses
- lack of tens of thousands of cycle lanes
- lack of proper painting and signals at busy intersections
- lack of bypass roads (NIMBYs are telling us we dont need them and then blame "traffic" for accidents downtown): hungary alone needs at least 500 bypass roads RIGHT NOW, close to 3000 kms. chief among which: M0 western section would have already been built had it not been for NIMBYs
- incredible amount of dangerous potholes (hungary has over 150.000 known potholes after last winter!!!!)
- old backroads that date back to the rebuilding after WWII with LOTS of bumps, small but tight curves, trees "positioned" where the bend would countinue etc.


And then these morons and liars turn around and collect money from old ladies doing 59 at a 50 zone while letting cyclers without helmets or even lights go on. Introduce speed cameras just to TAX people in a covert way. Its sickening
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:29 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That depends how accepted DUI is in a country. For instance, from what I've heard it's more accepted in Belgium than in the Netherlands. I don't think it would be hard to find someone at a party to help you start your car.
Still, it would make drunk driving much less likely even in countries where DUI is not frowned upon. Also, at least at Norwegian parties, most people who aren't designated drivers tend to be rather tipsy themselves...
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #315
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Real mature... Hopefully you're not old enough to drive...
glad to disappoint
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #316
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glad to disappoint
Well, next time you have something as "interesting" to say, feel free to locate the resident cretins. On the off chance you'd rather prefer to discuss serious issues in a serious manner, try behaving as an adult.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 12:43 AM   #317
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Anyway, I think improvement of road safety starts with a decent and safe road network (such as some of the things Gramercy pointed out above), but the mentality of the public is also very important, such as in wearing seatbelts, excessive speeding or DUI.

I think speed cameras have little to no effect to traffic safety, because they're often installed at cash locations instead of near schools or dangerous intersections. Awareness campaigns in the mass media are a better way of influencing the motorists. Also, I think undercover surveillance cars are much better, they can really pull over reckless drivers, and leave the ones that speed a little to no danger.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #318
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Also, I think undercover surveillance cars are much better, they can really pull over reckless drivers, and leave the ones that speed a little to no danger.
Why not institute a thought police with telepaths in the back seat.
Every time they pull up behind you and the telepath senses that you are listening to a Tiesto song they overtake you then put a bullet between your eyes.

How's that?

in case some cretin didnt get it: JUST KIDDING
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Old March 25th, 2009, 01:05 AM   #319
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Clarkson said it the best about speed cameras: people who (1) already know they are there will slow down for the duration then go on and people who (2) are new to the location will be fixated on their speedometre going over everything from cats to newborn babies.
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Old March 25th, 2009, 06:49 AM   #320
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I think mentality is more important than quality of roads. Not all roads can be good, and sooner or later you'll have to drive one, you can't drive solely on motorways and other main roads. In many societies people drive incredibly recklessly even on good roads/motorways.
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