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Old June 12th, 2007, 08:58 PM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
By terminus station, we are referring to the main disembarking stations of a city. Of cause, some cities have through stations that act as their terminus' but that doesn't discount them. If they have over 10 platforms and act as the city's gateway then it get's in.
All of Berlins stations are through stations.
Furthermore I dont see any reason in disregarding stations that have less than 10 platforms.
Terminus stations like Frankfurt and Leipzig come with a ridiculous amount of platforms because they are old stations like most in Europe.
A Lehrter station which is right now the most modern station in europe can handle more passengers on less platforms than an old terminus station.
The same goes for many japanese stations I guess.
Besides the Lehrter Main station in Berlin has 14 platforms.
And gets 300.000 visitors each day of which 200.000 are passengers.





Btw:
Heres an aerial pic of the brand new Südkreuz (SouthCross station in Berlin)




The new Ostkreuz (east-Cross) station which handles 140.000 a day will look very similar when completed and will cost 411 million Euros.
The new station will get around 230.000 passengers a day.

heres a render of how it will look like:

http://www.buenck.fehse.com/projects...-1005-full.jpg

Would be interesting anyways to count the number of passengers on all of Berlins major intercity stations.
I also dont think that any other city is currently investing as much money in its rail infrastrucure as Berlin does
rigt now. Considering that the city is totally bankrupt it really is amazing how much they are building.

Last edited by GNU; June 12th, 2007 at 09:16 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2007, 09:03 PM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
By terminus station, we are referring to the main disembarking stations of a city. Of cause, some cities have through stations that act as their terminus' but that doesn't discount them. If they have over 10 platforms and act as the city's gateway then it get's in.
And what's the difference between Berlin-Nordkreuz and ie Frankfurt-Süd (terminus for 2-3 S-Bahn lines, Frankfurt's only stop for 1 ICE line and most night trains)?
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Old June 13th, 2007, 02:47 AM   #403
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Yes but it is about Rail Terminals

Does Yurakucho has intercities lines ?
Since Tokyo and Yokohama are in the same urban area, so the Kehin Tohoku line is not a intercites line but a commuter line.

And we can't include these subway stations with Tokyo stations.
Saint Augustin, Havre Caumartin, Auber and Opera station was not accepted with Saint Lazare station in Paris, but all these stations are connected by underground passages.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 08:26 AM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
All of Berlins stations are through stations.
And some mighty fine stations as well. I always loved the elevated rail ring that winds it's way on the northern part of the city. So many cool stations along that line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Furthermore I dont see any reason in disregarding stations that have less than 10 platforms.
Pretty logical really, it's all about sustainability of this thread. If we listed every single station, the list would have become far too long. This thread isn't a profession ;O)

But I do appreciate where you're going. In cities that only have full through stations, the number of platforms will be much smaller than a city which has end of line stations. This in effect makes cities like Berlin appear lower on the list. Then again, Berlin did used to have a ring of end of line stations that were sadly destroyed in the war, and the cold war that followed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Terminus stations like Frankfurt and Leipzig come with a ridiculous amount of platforms because they are old stations like most in Europe.
Actually, they came with a large amount of platforms because they are end of line terminus stations. This is not unique to Europe. I have seen such terminus stations in every part of the world and probably form the bulk of main line stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
A Lehrter station which is right now the most modern station in europe can handle more passengers on less platforms than an old terminus station.
The same goes for many japanese stations I guess.
Besides the Lehrter Main station in Berlin has 14 platforms.
And gets 300.000 visitors each day of which 200.000 are passengers.
This is indeed a great station. Pass through stations are a better concept than terminus but unless large amounts of underground lines are constructed (or like Japan, ugly elevated lines), or built away from the central area of town (like Berlin) they are useless for large sized cities. Can you imagine Paris or London with giant swarves of wide elevated heavy rail lines cutting up the central city? This was in fact the reason the London stations became terminus stations and not pass through as the city fathers did not want central London carved up by railways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
I also dont think that any other city is currently investing as much money in its rail infrastrucure as Berlin does
rigt now. Considering that the city is totally bankrupt it really is amazing how much they are building.
Berlin certainly is spending a lot of money in it's infrastructure at the moment, but this is not unique in the world, just uncommon in our current time. Madrid has also been extending it's rail enormously, Barcelona has also been doing a good job and even London is building large extensions to it's network, a new HSR into London, Crossrail, new DLR lines and renovating the major stations.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 08:31 AM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
And what's the difference between Berlin-Nordkreuz and ie Frankfurt-Süd (terminus for 2-3 S-Bahn lines, Frankfurt's only stop for 1 ICE line and most night trains)?
Frankfurt-Süd is a bit iffy, I agree, but it does have some ICE services which make it a gateway to a small degree. Does Nordkreuz offer ICE services as a gateway?
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Old June 13th, 2007, 11:19 AM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Besides the Lehrter Main station in Berlin has 14 platforms.
And gets 300.000 visitors each day of which 200.000 are passengers.
8 on level -2 and 6 on level 2. Plus 2 platforms prepared for U55
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Old June 13th, 2007, 01:47 PM   #407
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Regarding the responses over the last few days ...
  1. let's not turn this into a Japan vs. Europe thread!

  2. the thread is about the "World's Largest & busiest passenger Terminals". If someone wants to start a thread along the lines of "City with the most railway platforms", they're obviously able to do so. But before you do ... think what a can of worms you're opening up! (and beware the spectre of Clapham Junction!)

  3. No. of platforms is only one measure of size, and not really a measure of business at all. But it's a relatively easy statistic to compile. It would be nice to have no. of train departures and no. of daily passengers as well, and I'm working towards this.

  4. "Through" terminals were included as well as "stub" terminals: a most obvious example: Pennsyvlania station in New York is included, as well as Grand Central.

  5. The only reason stations with less than 10 platforms was excluded was to make the project manageable. I currently have 117 terminal stations registered with 10 or more platforms, and I'm sure this list is far from complete.

  6. Personally, I'm interested in terminal stations with less than 10 platforms and non-terminal stations with 10 or more platforms as well, but I don't want this project messed up by including lots of suburban stations that all essentially handle the same trains.

  7. I am sure there are a number of cities in Europe and elsewhere (China, for instance!) for which data hasn't yet been offered or compiled.

  8. There are also some postings in this thread which have offered data but I haven't yet incorporated: particularly perhaps from northern Europe. It takes time! Keep your fingers crossed, Berlin!

  9. Although I started this thread I'm not claiming to own it: the lists of stations here originally bounced around between various people, but as metropolitan totals were compiled, it became more complex and required something more than a flat file.

    Bouncing that around between various forumers leads to all sorts of version control problems ... so I created my own spreadsheets/database. I don't mind sharing it,, but I'd like to vet what goes into it.

  10. Lastly, thanks to Justme for his incisive grasp of what this thread was all about, and his defence and exposition of its criteria.


Last edited by Yardmaster; June 13th, 2007 at 01:53 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 06:56 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Does Nordkreuz offer ICE services as a gateway?
Yes it does. (the Südkreuz does aswell btw)
The north-south connection goes through Südkreuz-Lehrter-Nordkreuz.
Nordkreuz has also been newly built, but its quite small when compared to the Südkreuz,Westkreuz, and the new Ostkreuz
Pic
Pic
Pic
Pic
Pic

Last edited by GNU; June 13th, 2007 at 07:06 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 07:06 PM   #409
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^ Ok, so there is a difference. The stop at Nordkreuz is before or after a stop at the Hauptbahnhof (which is the main gateway), this makes the Nordkreuz a suburban alternative.

There are services to Frankfurt's Südbahnhof that do not stop at the Hauptbahnhof, making Südbahnhof the gateway to Frankfurt for those lines. I used this from Köln once before.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 07:23 PM   #410
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So I can add stations of Lyon

Perrache 19 platforms
It is the old main terminal of Lyon (Even if it is not a terminus station)
Now it is more a regional rails station but it is always served by high speed train (TGV) and intercities trains, This station is served by the line A of Lyon metro.



The 16th and 17th platforms are not visible because these are a bit further.

The 18th and 19th platforms are undergroung it is the subway.

Part Dieu 12 platforms
It is the new main terminal of Lyon (Even if it is not a terminus station) it has High speed trains (TGV), intercities lines, regional train and the line B of Lyon metro.
Its traffic is about 150,000 passengers per day.



The 11th and 12th platforms are underground it is the subway

Total : 31 platforms

__________________________________________________________

Largest Stations:

30 platforms or more (12)

52: Grand Central (New York)
48: Nord (Paris)
39: Munich Hauptbahnhof
38: Saint Lazare (Paris)
36: Est (Paris)
36: Montparnasse (Paris)
36: Waterloo (London)
33: Shinjuku (Tokyo)
33: Osaka/Umeda (Osaka)
32: Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof
30: Tokyo Station (Tokyo)
30: Union Station (Chicago

25-29 Platforms (12 Stations)

29: Austerlitz (Paris)
29: Penn Station (New York)
29: Leningradskiy / Yaroslavskiy and Kalanchevskaya (Moscow)
29: Porta Romana (Milan)
27: Atocha (Madrid)
27: Karlsruhe Hauptbahnhof
26: Kings Cross/St.Pancras
26: Lyon (Paris)
26: Leipzig Hauptbahnhof
26: Ikebukuro (Tokyo)
26: Zürich Hauptbahnhof
25: Sydney Central
25: Ueno (Tokyo)

20-25 Platforms (14 Stations):

24: Chamartín (Madrid)
24: Stazione Centrale (Milan)
24: Euston (London)
24: Tennoji (Osaka)
24: Kyoto
23: Howrah (Calcutta)
23: Victoria (London)
22: Liverpool Street (London)
22: Omiya (Saitama)
22: Bruxelles-Midi
21: Shinagawa (Tokyo)
20: Porta Garibaldi (Milan)
20: Paddington (London)

15-19 Platforms (26 Stations)

19: London Bridge (London)
19: Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof
19: Helsinki Central
19: Oslo Central
19: Perrache (Lyon)
18: Retiro (Buenos Aires)
18: Basel SBB & Basel SNCF
18: Saint Charles (Marseilles)
17: Yokohama
17: Shin-Osaka (Osaka)
17: Kazanskiy (Moscow)
17: Leeds City (UK)
16: Charing Cross/Embankment (UK)
16: Constitución (Buenos Aires)
16: Atlantic Terminal (New York)
16: Glasgow Central
16: Bern Central
16: Sendai
16: Sealdah (Calcutta)
16: Flandres (Lille)
16: Hamburg Hauptbahnhof
16: Dresden Hauptbahnhof
15: Stratford (London)
15: Kurskiy (Moscow)
15: Southern Cross Station (Melbourne)
15: Rotterdam Centraal

10-14 Platforms (40 Stations)

14: Estacio de França (Barcelona, Spain)
14: Utrecht Centraal
14: Piccadilly station (Manchester)
14: Shibuya (Tokyo)
14: Shimbashi (Tokyo)
14: Kita-senju (Tokyo)
14: Chiba
14: Odawara
14: Luzern (terminal)
14: Berlin Lehrter Hauptbahnhof
14: Barcelona Sants (Spain)
14: 30th Street Station (Philadelphia, PA)
13: Greco-Bicocca (Milan)
13: Flinders Street Station (Melbourne)
13: Amsterdam Centraal
12: Santa Justa (Seville, Spain)
12: Kievskiy (Moscow)
12: Den Haag Centraal
12: New Street (Birmingham UK)
12: Newcastle (UK)
12: Kanayama (Nagoya)
12: Ofuna (Yokohama)
12: Altona (Hamburg)
12: Sants (Barcelona, Spain)
12: Bruxelles-Nord
12: Reading (UK)
12: Part Dieu (Lyon)
11: Porta Genova (Milan)
11: Paveletskiy (Moscow)
11: Belarusskiy (Moscow)
11: Berlin Ostbahnhof (East-Station)
11: Nürnberg Hauptbahnhof
10: Cadorna F.N.M. (Milan)
10: Berlin Nordkreuz/Gesundbrunnen
10: Olten (Switerland)
10: Iidabashi (Tokyo)
10: Moorgate (London)
10: Roma St (Brisbane)
10: Köln Hauptbahnhof
10: Once (Buenos Aires)
10: Principe Pío (Madrid)


City Totals for Main Terminii


213: Paris (France)
202: London (UK)
190: Tokyo (Japan)
97: New York (USA)
97: Milan (Italy)
95: Moscow (Russia)
74: Osaka (Japan)
61: Madrid (Spain)
44: Buenos Aires (Argentina)
43: Berlin (Germany)
43: Nagoya (Japan)
39: Calcutta (Kolkutta) (India)
39: Munich (Germany)
32: Frankfurt (Germany)
31: Lyon (France)
30: Chicago (USA)
29: Yokohama (Japan)
28: Barcelona (Spain)
28: Hamburg (Germany)
28: Melbourne (Australia)
26: Brussels (Belgium)
27: Karlsruhe (Germany)
26: Leipzig (Germany)
26: Zürich (Switzerland)
25: Sydney (Australia)
19: Helsinki (Finland)
19: Stuttgart (Germany)
19: Oslo (Norway)
18: Basel (Switzerland)
18: Marseilles (France)
17: Leeds (UK)
16: Glasgow (UK)
16: Bern (Switzerland)
16: Lille (France)
16: Dresden (Germany)
15: Rotterdam (Netherlands)
14: Manchester (UK)
14: Luzern (Switzerland)
14: Utrecht (Netherlands)
14: Chiba (Japan)
14: Odawara (Japan)
13: Amsterdam (Netherlands)
12: Seville (Spain)
12: Newcastle (UK)
12: Birmingham (UK)
12: Den Haag (The Hague) (Netherlands)
12: Nagoya (Japan)
12: Yokohama (Japan)
12: Reading (UK)
11: Nürnberg (Nurenberg)
10: Brisbane (Australia)
10: Olten (Switzerland)
10: Köln (Cologne) (Germany)
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Old June 13th, 2007, 07:28 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
I always loved the elevated rail ring that winds it's way on the northern part of the city. So many cool stations along that line.
Do you mean the elevated Underground lines? Youll get them all over the city, not just in the north.
But I aggree that the stations look very cool. Unfortunately many have been damaged during the war and were being rebuilt in a cheap way.



Quote:
Pretty logical really, it's all about sustainability of this thread. If we listed every single station, the list would have become far too long. This thread isn't a profession ;O)
Ok fair enough

Quote:
Berlin did used to have a ring of end of line stations that were sadly destroyed in the war, and the cold war that followed.
Thats correct but all major stations such as the Anhalter, Lehrter and Görlitzer survived the war.
Anhalter and Lehrter (dunno about the Görlitzer) were even back in operation.
Then, stupidly they were pulled down simply because they werent being used anymore.


you can have a look into this thread were I posted some pictures of them:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=196145&page=7




Quote:
Actually, they came with a large amount of platforms because they are end of line terminus stations. This is not unique to Europe. I have seen such terminus stations in every part of the world and probably form the bulk of main line stations.
Thats exactly what I wanted to say. The majority of the stations (not just in Europe of course) are end line stations which need more platforms.


Quote:
or built away from the central area of town (like Berlin) they are useless for large sized cities.
Why are they useless for large sized cities?
Doesnt Tokyo have them aswell? (Correct me if Im wrong)
Plus, Berlin had them even though they also had their end-line stations.
the traffic planners in Berlin just realized very early (at the beginning of the 20th century)that through stations are more efficient.
And many stations in Berlin have always been through stations like the Zoo, Alexanderplatz, Friedrichstrasse whilst at the same time the end-line terminus stations were being used.


Quote:
Can you imagine Paris or London with giant swarves of wide elevated heavy rail lines cutting up the central city?
Absolutely, even though now its a bit late for that.
The rail traffic that goes through the east-west axis in Berlin runs on one elevated track only.
So the space it takes up is minimal.


Quote:
Berlin certainly is spending a lot of money in it's infrastructure at the moment, but this is not unique in the world, just uncommon in our current time.
I could imagine that Berlin is spending more than any other city in Europe on its rail infrastructure.
They now have to built all the infrastructure that couldnt be built during the Coldwar.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 07:55 PM   #412
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Quote:
Largest Stations:

30 platforms or more (12)

52: Grand Central (New York)
48: Nord (Paris)
39: Munich Hauptbahnhof
38: Saint Lazare (Paris)
36: Est (Paris)
36: Montparnasse (Paris)
36: Waterloo (London)
33: Shinjuku (Tokyo)
33: Osaka/Umeda (Osaka)
32: Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof
30: Tokyo Station (Tokyo)
30: Union Station (Chicago

25-29 Platforms (12 Stations)

29: Austerlitz (Paris)
29: Penn Station (New York)
29: Leningradskiy / Yaroslavskiy and Kalanchevskaya (Moscow)
29: Porta Romana (Milan)
27: Atocha (Madrid)
27: Karlsruhe Hauptbahnhof
26: Kings Cross/St.Pancras
26: Lyon (Paris)
26: Leipzig Hauptbahnhof
26: Ikebukuro (Tokyo)
26: Zürich Hauptbahnhof
25: Sydney Central
25: Ueno (Tokyo)

20-25 Platforms (14 Stations):

24: Chamartín (Madrid)
24: Stazione Centrale (Milan)
24: Euston (London)
24: Tennoji (Osaka)
24: Kyoto
23: Howrah (Calcutta)
23: Victoria (London)
22: Liverpool Street (London)
22: Omiya (Saitama)
22: Bruxelles-Midi
21: Shinagawa (Tokyo)
20: Porta Garibaldi (Milan)
20: Paddington (London)
sorry, but this is a very poor list.
Many germans stations are missing.
Where (just for example) is Essen HBF with its 24 tracks as a through station?
Where is Dortmund HBF wiht its 20 main tracks?
Where is Stuttgart... etc.ect...
Leipzig gets 31 tracks btw
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Old June 13th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #413
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This list is is not complete, it is why we add new stations at this list
See the first pages of this thread.

If you know new terminal stations add it, if you see errors, correct it.
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Old June 13th, 2007, 08:09 PM   #414
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Could someone also give me some figures about gare de lest please?
Im surprised thta its supposed to have so many tracks to be honest
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Old June 13th, 2007, 08:27 PM   #415
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hmm

if you start looking at tracks it won´t finish

in "my" small country we have stations (Bludenz and Wolfurt) which have more than 20 tracks. and about 10.000 - 13.000 inhabits.

an NO, there not just freight stations also regulkar for passengers
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Old June 13th, 2007, 10:11 PM   #416
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Don't forget that subway is include. 4 subway lines in this station.
30 platforms+ 4 subway lines = 38 platforms it is right.


All Paris terminals railway exept Bercy are huge.

Gare de l'Est is so big that the CDG express will be in this station, with the TGV Est the traffic will increase
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Old June 14th, 2007, 08:43 AM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Do you mean the elevated Underground lines? Youll get them all over the city, not just in the north.
Although I really like the elevated U-bahn lines, I actually meant the S-bahn and intercity line that loops arund the north of the city center. The one which has Zoo Station, Hauptbahnhof, Alexanderplatz and a few more in between. This in my opinion is the coolest elevated rail line in the world. It has so much character and atmosphere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
But I aggree that the stations look very cool. Unfortunately many have been damaged during the war and were being rebuilt in a cheap way.
Year, this is real sad. I saw some photos of how they looked before the 2nd world war, so much detail in the ironwork, it was pure art. And then the same scenes today, which for a large deal was just functional beams. It was such a great loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Thats correct but all major stations such as the Anhalter, Lehrter and Görlitzer survived the war.
Anhalter and Lehrter (dunno about the Görlitzer) were even back in operation.
Then, stupidly they were pulled down simply because they werent being used anymore.
Again that was sad. The problem was because of the cold war and division of Berlin. These stations would have survived if the city wasn't divided, but by dividing them, the stations didn't get the usage the normally would have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
Why are they useless for large sized cities?
Doesnt Tokyo have them aswell? (Correct me if Im wrong)
Plus, Berlin had them even though they also had their end-line stations.
the traffic planners in Berlin just realized very early (at the beginning of the 20th century)that through stations are more efficient.
And many stations in Berlin have always been through stations like the Zoo, Alexanderplatz, Friedrichstrasse whilst at the same time the end-line terminus stations were being used.
It is important to note that the line that Alexanderplatz and Friedrichstrasse, Hauptbahnof, Zoo etc doesn't cut through the central part of the city (though at Friedrichstrasse it gets close) but to the north. If they connected the North/South, East/West stations of London with these elevated railway lines, it would destroy the heart of the city. Same with Paris. People talk of how beautiful Paris is, and even central London, but they don't mention Tokyo as beautiful (It's an urban wonderland, but not beautiful). I would hate to see these cities carved up. And it was that exact reason that the railways were forced to stop as soon as they reached the city.

Still, as I said, I absolutely love the Berlin elevated ring.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 08:46 AM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker View Post
sorry, but this is a very poor list.
Many germans stations are missing.
Where (just for example) is Essen HBF with its 24 tracks as a through station?
Where is Dortmund HBF wiht its 20 main tracks?
Where is Stuttgart... etc.ect...
Leipzig gets 31 tracks btw
Please feel free provide the information :O) This list is made up by people supplying details. We need your help :O)

By the way, it should include all "platforms" (not tracks itself) and by all that also means any U-bahn or S-bahn platforms whether they are underground, or directly connected somehow to the station (but not seperated by walking down a street or through other unrelated buildings). Tram's are not included.

Looking forward to your input.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 09:49 AM   #419
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sorry, but this is a very poor list.
Many germans stations are missing.
Where (just for example) is Essen HBF with its 24 tracks as a through station?
Where is Dortmund HBF wiht its 20 main tracks?
Where is Stuttgart... etc.ect...
Leipzig gets 31 tracks btw
Platforms alone don't say anything about the traffic anyway. Zürich Stadelhofen has THREE tracks and is one of the busiest stations in the country (and even built by Calatrava ) with 40 trains per hour.
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Old June 14th, 2007, 11:42 AM   #420
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^ Ok, so there is a difference. The stop at Nordkreuz is before or after a stop at the Hauptbahnhof (which is the main gateway), this makes the Nordkreuz a suburban alternative.
But that would make all of Berlins stations a suburban alternative.
The Ostbahnhof (trainstation east/not to be mistaken with the Ostkreuz) would be the only station then which wouldnt because the ICE sets off from here on the east-west axis.
Nordkreuz is just a normal through traffic station like the others.
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