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Old October 18th, 2005, 10:58 AM   #481
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But's that's the old model. The new ones don't have the Taiwan flag.

Cathay Pacific does not have the HK flag but it has the Hong Kong, "Asia's World City" logo and slogan in it
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Old October 18th, 2005, 11:00 AM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subangite
How can it be HK's flag carrier but unofficial, aren't you contradicting terms here. Flag carrier, i.e. flag wearing carrier. Cathay does not fly any flag!! It only has the swire group logo!! It is the largest HK airline but thats where it stops, you can't call it flag carrier because it's not.

A Flag carrier of HK would also be a dumbfounding, flag carriers fly the flags of a country, since when was HK ever declared an independent sovereign state?

China Airlines is the flag carrier for the Republic of China! It flew the ROC flag prominently on its tail before switching to the floral c/s it has now.



Thats the ROC flag on the tail!!
HK is an automous state of mainland China after the British, turned it over to Beijing Government in 1990, they still have a separate governing body just like a separate state from the mainland, same goes to shanghai and macau although the final decision making is being done in Beijing.

Cathay Pacific is then a flag carrier of HK as an independent state, China airlines just like what Wanch mentioned earlier is based in Taiwan so it is a Taiwan flag carrier, it is still China airlines since the island nation is still being claimed by Beijing as part of it's territory and not an independent nation, that's why there is a "one china policy" as far as foreign diplomatic relations.

The mainland china has it's own flag carrier called China Southern airlines, China eastern and China nothern airlines, China southern is the biggest of the three subsidiaries so it is considered China's main flag carrier.

As far as any of these companies not carrying the official flag of china, I am not so sure yet but then if you would look at all the different US air carriers such as, NWA, DELTA, American Airlines and others, none of them has the United States flag on any of their aircrafts.

Last edited by xDieselJockx; October 18th, 2005 at 11:19 AM.
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Old October 18th, 2005, 12:37 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xDieselJockx
HK is an automous state of mainland China after the British, turned it over to Beijing Government in 1990, they still have a separate governing body just like a separate state from the mainland, same goes to shanghai and macau although the final decision making is being done in Beijing.

Cathay Pacific is then a flag carrier of HK as an independent state, China airlines just like what Wanch mentioned earlier is based in Taiwan so it is a Taiwan flag carrier, it is still China airlines since the island nation is still being claimed by Beijing as part of it's territory and not an independent nation, that's why there is a "one china policy" as far as foreign diplomatic relations.

The mainland china has it's own flag carrier called China Southern airlines, China eastern and China nothern airlines, China southern is the biggest of the three subsidiaries so it is considered China's main flag carrier.

As far as any of these companies not carrying the official flag of china, I am not so sure yet but then if you would look at all the different US air carriers such as, NWA, DELTA, American Airlines and others, none of them has the United States flag on any of their aircrafts.

HK is not an independent state! It is a self administrative autonomous region, but it still falls under the purview of the PRC! You said it yourself;
Quote:
Originally Posted by xDieselJockx
final decision making is being done in Beijing.
Now does that sound like an "independent state"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDieselJockx
Cathay Pacific is then a flag carrier of HK as an independent state
There is no such thing as an independent state of HK!! HK is just an special autonomous region of China.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xDieselJockx
at all the different US air carriers such as, NWA, DELTA, American Airlines
And as such All US carriers who have the US flag on their aircraft are "flag carriers"!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDieselJockx
China airlines just like what Wanch mentioned earlier is based in Taiwan so it is a Taiwan flag carrier, it is still China airlines since the island nation is still being claimed by Beijing
It is not China airlines because the Island is claimed by Beijing! You forget that the official name of Taiwan is the Republic of China!! Yes it is a flag carrier, I have shown you pictures of that. The change in livery c/s to the current floral motif, ridding itself of the ROC flag, I suspect is because most countries do not recognise the Republic of China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xDieselJockx
The mainland china has it's own flag carrier called China Southern airlines, China eastern and China nothern airlines, China southern is the biggest of the three subsidiaries so it is considered China's main flag carrier.
Mainland China has only ONE flag carrier, that being Air China, all these other chinese airlines that you have mention, China Southern, China Eastern, China Northern DO NOT have the PRChina flag on their aircraft and thus are not flag carriers!! Not even the private airlines like Hainan Airlines are allowed to be flag carriers. The only airline that does so is Air China! Thus Air China is one and only flag carrier of the Peoples Republic.

My point is, how can Cathay Pacific Airways be the flag carrier of HK?
Firstly because HK is NOT a country, it merely has autonomous status!
Secondly Cathay does not show any flags at all, it only shows the swire group logo!

Furthermore Swire group being a company founded in Liverpool England and is currently has its headquarters in London!

The only thing that can be said in relation to Cathay Pacific and HK is that, HK is Cathays hub, and Cathay is the largest airline operating there, thats all, to call it HK's "flag carrier" is not by definition correct!
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Old October 18th, 2005, 01:06 PM   #484
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Sumpelo, I got your thing about flag carriers. Cathay Pacific may not be a flag carrier but it still represents and serves as Hong Kong's main airline. It's fleet may not have the HK flag but it has the Hong Kong "Asia's World City" logo and slogan in it.

Cathay Pacific still serves it's importance to HK just like Thai Airways is to Thailand
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Old October 18th, 2005, 01:17 PM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANCH
Sumpelo, I got your thing about flag carriers. Cathay Pacific may not be a flag carrier but it still represents and serves as Hong Kong's main airline. It's fleet may not have the HK flag but it has the Hong Kong "Asia's World City" logo and slogan in it.

Cathay Pacific still serves it's importance to HK just like Thai Airways is to Thailand
Thanks for getting it! Cathay is NOT HK's flag carrier, whatever slogan i.e. Asia's world city, its just a marketing ploy, from a carrier whose parent company is located in London, anyways the slogan makes sense for Cathay after all HK is where Cathay is hubbed.
Cathay Pacific is important to HK as Thai Airways is to Bangkok with one exception, Thai Airways is Thailands flag carrier!

I'm not debating how important Cathay is to Hong Kong, its people and its economy but my point is that Cathay Pacific Airways is NOT HK's flag carrier!

Last edited by Subangite; October 18th, 2005 at 01:25 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2005, 01:33 PM   #486
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A little off topic but I think I should post pictures of my ex-girlfriend in her uniform She's a flight attendant for Cathay Pacific! But if I do that she'll Muay Thai me
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Old October 19th, 2005, 11:04 AM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANCH
A little off topic but I think I should post pictures of my ex-girlfriend in her uniform She's a flight attendant for Cathay Pacific! But if I do that she'll Muay Thai me
stewardesses, nice, I like!
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Old October 19th, 2005, 11:13 AM   #488
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One of the reason why China Airlines dropped its flag is because PROC isn't too happy bout it and countries which recognised mainland China are unhappy bout it cos they are being pressured politically by PROC. So in order to avoid any firther misunderstanding and loses in destination, China Airlines latest livery do not include any ROC flag

And yea......Cathay Pacific isn't HK's flag carrier.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 10:49 AM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subangite
Thanks for getting it! Cathay is NOT HK's flag carrier, whatever slogan i.e. Asia's world city, its just a marketing ploy, from a carrier whose parent company is located in London, anyways the slogan makes sense for Cathay after all HK is where Cathay is hubbed.
Cathay Pacific is important to HK as Thai Airways is to Bangkok with one exception, Thai Airways is Thailands flag carrier!

I'm not debating how important Cathay is to Hong Kong, its people and its economy but my point is that Cathay Pacific Airways is NOT HK's flag carrier!
Cathay Pacific is owned by Swire, which is based in Hong Kong. However, flag carriers only apply to independent states, so CX doesn't carry the Hong Kong flag, but it is one of HK's official carriers.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 09:38 PM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Cathay Pacific is owned by Swire, which is based in Hong Kong. However, flag carriers only apply to independent states, so CX doesn't carry the Hong Kong flag, but it is one of HK's official carriers.
Cathay Pacific is based in HK, Swire Pacific which owns Cathay is based in HK but the parent company of Swire Pacific, the Swire Group is privately owned and is based in London and NOT IN HK!!

Anyways my point being is that Cathay is not HK's flag carrier. Now here's a point of discussion, What makes Cathay Pacific, HK's official carrier as you say? Who gave them this "official" title? Just because they're the largest carrier in HK, they now become the "official" airline? With that logic does that make Ryan Air the "official" carrier of Stansted, UK? Or Alaska Airlines the "official" carrier of Seattle, Washington? Since these carriers are the biggest operators in these cities having its main hub there.
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Old October 21st, 2005, 10:30 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Cathay Pacific is owned by Swire, which is based in Hong Kong. However, flag carriers only apply to independent states, so CX doesn't carry the Hong Kong flag, but it is one of HK's official carriers.

I don't understand flag carrier status. In the U.S, every airline has the U.S. flag somewhere on their planes. I'm suprised to see that some countries only have 1 flag carrier, like Air China. I don't see the Chinese flag on any other airlines than Air China. I thought China Southern, China Norther, Hainan and the others would paint the Chinese flag on their planes too.

I noticed that Canada and Indonesia carry the flag on all planes so maybe it's something I don't understand about China.
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 12:41 AM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258
I don't understand flag carrier status. In the U.S, every airline has the U.S. flag somewhere on their planes. I'm suprised to see that some countries only have 1 flag carrier, like Air China. I don't see the Chinese flag on any other airlines than Air China. I thought China Southern, China Norther, Hainan and the others would paint the Chinese flag on their planes too.

I noticed that Canada and Indonesia carry the flag on all planes so maybe it's something I don't understand about China.
The flag carrier is usually state-owned.
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 03:24 AM   #493
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I believe all carriers must have a home-based registration. However, I don't think those flags mean they are official flag carriers, since even Ryanair has an Irish flag on its planes :



Cathay Pacific has had a longstanding relationship with the government to promote Hong Kong abroad, since it is Hong Kong's largest international carrier. Thus many CX planes have liveries promoting Hong Kong, and containing the 'Asia's World City' title and logo.

UK-based Swire is actually not a majority shareholder of Swire Pacific. It is merely a holding company, and they only hold 29% of Swire Pacific, and it is floated on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. This type of holding company structure is quite common across many multinationals, including HSBC. In fact, John Swire & Sons (H.K.) Limited holds a controlling interest in Swire Pacific Limited.

Cathay Pacific is not a British carrier for certain, since it is incorporated and based in Hong Kong. Since Hong Kong is not an independent country, there is no flag on the planes. I don't see flags on Dragonair either - another Hong Kong-based airline.

However, I notice an Air Macau jet with a US flag :
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/939124/L/

But other than that the other airlines on file at airliners.net do not have any flag at all, which fuels my suspicion that only airlines based in independent countries need to display a flag on its planes.
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 06:33 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
I believe all carriers must have a home-based registration. However, I don't think those flags mean they are official flag carriers, since even Ryanair has an Irish flag on its planes :



Cathay Pacific has had a longstanding relationship with the government to promote Hong Kong abroad, since it is Hong Kong's largest international carrier. Thus many CX planes have liveries promoting Hong Kong, and containing the 'Asia's World City' title and logo.

UK-based Swire is actually not a majority shareholder of Swire Pacific. It is merely a holding company, and they only hold 29% of Swire Pacific, and it is floated on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. This type of holding company structure is quite common across many multinationals, including HSBC. In fact, John Swire & Sons (H.K.) Limited holds a controlling interest in Swire Pacific Limited.

Cathay Pacific is not a British carrier for certain, since it is incorporated and based in Hong Kong. Since Hong Kong is not an independent country, there is no flag on the planes. I don't see flags on Dragonair either - another Hong Kong-based airline.

However, I notice an Air Macau jet with a US flag :
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/939124/L/

But other than that the other airlines on file at airliners.net do not have any flag at all, which fuels my suspicion that only airlines based in independent countries need to display a flag on its planes.
Air Macau Jet with a US flag on is probably leased, or given a temp registration.

Many Airlines have their planes registered overseas. A lot of Philippine Airlines planes are French, Irish and US registered. I suspect because they are on lease.

Whatever!!Cathat are the largest carrier in HK, this is what I've said before, however being the largest carrier does NOT make them the "official carrier"! nor does it make them the "flag carrier"! Working arrangement with the local government doesn't mean they are the "official" carrier of HK!! What exactly is that for HK, what does that emcompass? Cathay markets Hong Kong because its their main base and hub of operations!! Its more of a business position than a patriotic duty to HK! Who gives them this "officialness" and in what capacity?

Hong Kong based Swire Pacific has a 46 percent share in Cathay Pacific but John Swire & Sons based in the UK provides management services to the airline. source: Swire Pacific limited http://www.swirepacific.com
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Old October 22nd, 2005, 11:20 PM   #495
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Cathay partners with the government for international tourism, which doesn't always coincide with their business objectives, since the tourists can arrive using other carriers. Nevertheless, the working arrangement with the tourism authorities remains strong. After SARS, Cathay donated 10,000 seats on its worldwide network to boost the tourism industry.

Since Cathay is the only worldwide carrier based in Hong Kong, it makes sense that it is Hong Kong's official airline. The competition is just too small to take that role. Dragonair is a strictly regional carrier, concentrating on China and Asia. CR Airways and Hong Kong Express are even smaller.
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Old October 23rd, 2005, 07:21 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Cathay partners with the government for international tourism, which doesn't always coincide with their business objectives, since the tourists can arrive using other carriers. Nevertheless, the working arrangement with the tourism authorities remains strong. After SARS, Cathay donated 10,000 seats on its worldwide network to boost the tourism industry.

Since Cathay is the only worldwide carrier based in Hong Kong, it makes sense that it is Hong Kong's official airline. The competition is just too small to take that role. Dragonair is a strictly regional carrier, concentrating on China and Asia. CR Airways and Hong Kong Express are even smaller.
There's nothing official about Cathay Pacific, its just the largest international carrier based in HK! Its not HK's "official" airline. Who gave them HK's "official" status? Just because there's close cooperation with the local government does NOT give them "official" status!

Do you know of any airline which has official status from the city or country they operate from? Is the official airline of the UK, British Airways? What would Virgin Atlantic think of that? And in countries where there's only one carrier, they still do not have this "official" title. For example Royal Brunei is the only carrier based in Brunei D.S, it is a state carrier, it is a flag carrier, one thing its NOT is an "official" carrier.

You have official carriers for sports promotions, football clubs, international events, i.e. the world cup, Man utd tour of Asia, an official carrier for the All Blacks team. Swiss Int' Air Lines is the official carrier for the European International Particle Accelerator Conference and so forth. You don't find however is an official carrier for city!!!

Last edited by Subangite; October 23rd, 2005 at 07:34 PM.
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Old October 23rd, 2005, 07:46 PM   #497
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The UK has several international carriers, notably British Airways and Virgin Atlantic, hence the 'official' status may be questionable, although BA has traditionally been the representative icon of the UK worldwide.

Since Hong Kong has only one truly international carrier, it makes sense Cathay is the representative airline of Hong Kong. Time Magazine refers Cathay as Hong Kong's flag carrier in one of its articles a few years back :

But perhaps the most definitive proof of Hong Kong's rebound is the disappearance of deep discounts on airline fares. The best deal still available is from flag carrier Cathay Pacific, aimed at travelers from the U.S.: a round-trip ticket from San Francisco, Los Angeles or New York costs $999, and includes a further stop in one of 17 other Asian cities. Lufthansa offers one of the best fares from Europe, from London for $795.

Source : "Hong Kong's Back!", Oct. 06, 2003 issue of TIME Asia Magazine

Sometimes flag carriers and official carriers coincide. In many countries, one single international carrier is marketed with the country as a tourism ploy. It is in this context that Cathay is Hong Kong's official carrier, just as Swiss is the represetative symbol of Switzerland and Air Canada being Canada's international airline.

Without getting too technical, there may be multiple carriers with the same country flag, but not necessarily multiple 'official carriers' for worldwide tourism marketing purposes. I highly doubt the British will use bmi for its worldwide tourism campaign, for example.
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Old October 23rd, 2005, 11:51 PM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
Nevertheless, the working arrangement with the tourism authorities remains strong. After SARS, Cathay donated 10,000 seats on its worldwide network to boost the tourism industry.

Similarly, AirAsia donated 5,000 seats for flights to Bali after this month's bombing to boost its tourism. Does that make it Bali's 'official carrier' ?
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Old October 23rd, 2005, 11:55 PM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline
I believe all carriers must have a home-based registration. However, I don't think those flags mean they are official flag carriers, since even Ryanair has an Irish flag on its planes :
You're right on that Having a flag there doesn't mean that it is a flag-carrier. However almost all (if not all) flag carriers have their respective country flags there
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Old October 24th, 2005, 03:58 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szehoong
Similarly, AirAsia donated 5,000 seats for flights to Bali after this month's bombing to boost its tourism. Does that make it Bali's 'official carrier' ?
However, AirAsia doesn't have a longstanding working relationship with the Bali government whereas Cathay has one. It's all about context.
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