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Old May 10th, 2006, 06:57 AM   #41
Bitxofo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minato ku
RER is an hybrid system subway and suburban line

The project name of the RER was Metro Express.
I knew it.

We have got exactly the same in Barcelona: FGC since 1863 (1st in the world).
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Old May 10th, 2006, 07:02 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolkid
Well here in NY,we have many express lines.
; )
Express services have their pros and their cons. Though in many ways I like a lot the NYC metro system, which seems the most complete to me.

New York City and Paris are interesting cities since they are stucturally speaking very similar. Both cities are concentrated in a very dense core : In one case Manhattan, in the other the city proper of Paris. There are about 25,000 inhabitants per sq. km in that core, which is of similar size in both cases (87 km² for Paris, 61 km² for Manhattan). That core is surrounded by residential areas relatively dense (a density between 6,000/km² and 12,000/km²). In NYC it will be the outer boroughs of the Bronx, the Queens and Brooklyn. In Paris it will be the inner ring departments of the Hauts-de-Seine, Seine-Saint-Denis and Val-de-Marne. And finally those outer boroughs are themselves surrounded by huge suburban sprawls.

Of course, the overall population of NYC is far larger than the one of Paris (18 million people for NYC and 11 million people for Paris), but that doesn't change anything about the fact the structure is similar.

What's interesting in that comparison is simply that urban rail transit is facing the same issues in both cases. A dense network with very close stations is necessary in the core, but very distant areas have also to be reached. The issue with this is that the closer are stations, the slower will be services. As a result, you simply cannot extend omnibus lines very far unless it becomes useless because too slow.

The NYC solution has been that marvelous system of 4-track tunnels. Thanks to that system, each trains can jump stations without having to worry about slower trains. This is the system of express and omnibus services we all know. The only bad point in that system is that if you don't check at which time comes your train you can wait it very long, seeing other services stoping at the station before yours finally appear.

In the case of the Paris métro, express services weren't doable for the simple reason that there are only 2 tracks in each tunnel, one for both directions. Hence, to solve the issue, we had to set up a more expensive system, which is about a superimposed network of brand new lines, dedicated to express services. That's the system of the RER, which have been elaborated in the 60's and firstly inaugurated in 1977 (and being extended later).

As Paris métro lines are necessarily omnibus, operating with very close stations, it's very difficult to extend it very far. As a result, the RER does the job the métro can't do. Paris network is clearly a double system, and actually that makes it very specific. Of course the RER could be compared with the S-Bahn, but it's not really an accurate comparison. While the S-bahn operates on the national rail tracks, the RER operates in dedicated tunnels. The RER is some kind of hybrid, working as a full metro system in the center of the city, and becoming a suburban rail system in the outer areas.

Last edited by Metropolitan; May 10th, 2006 at 07:37 AM.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 07:15 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitxofo
I knew it.

We have got exactly the same in Barcelona: FGC since 1863 (1st in the world).
I've been to Barcelona two weeks ago and I've used the Cercanias. And sorry to desappoint you but it's far to be similar to the RER. The Cercanias is similar to the German S-Bahn, there's not the hybrid aspect we can find in the RER.

The thing is that all cercanias lines are sharing the same tracks in the city center, just like the Berlin or Munich S-Bahn systems. As a result, you can't really compare it to a system of 5 independent lines operating in dedicated tunnels as is the RER. Furthermore, you can wait very long between two cercanias trains. I've taken the Cercanias from the airport to go to Barcelona city center, and I've waited 20 minutes before seeing the first train arriving.

The RER has a very heavy traffic. At rush hours, there are less than 2 minutes between 2 trains on the RER A. Actually, the train trafic is more important on RER lines than on Paris metro lines.

As for passengers, RER lines are also busier than métro lines. The RER A is supposed to be the busiest urban rail line in the world, with 272 million journeys a year. There are more than 800 million journeys a year on the RER network. Just as a comparison, there are 866 million journeys a year on Hong Kong MTR, and 976 million journeys a year on the London underground.

By the way, Barcelona is a terrific city. I really loved it. It's really my kind of city : very densely populated with fantastic architecture, very large avenues and a very busy center with tons of shops and boutiques. You're very lucky to live there. Considering the cities I've visited, Barelona is among my favourites, with New York City and Berlin.

Last edited by Metropolitan; May 10th, 2006 at 07:20 AM.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 12:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
I've been to Barcelona two weeks ago and I've used the Cercanias. And sorry to desappoint you but it's far to be similar to the RER. The Cercanias is similar to the German S-Bahn, there's not the hybrid aspect we can find in the RER.
...
But bitxofo is not talking about Cercanias (RENFE network)


but FCG (Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya) network
Barcelona - Valles line

Llobregat - Anoia line


A map of Barcelona network with the 5 colored metro lines (from L1 to L5), the 13 dark blue FCG "lines (not detailled) and the 4 greyed Cercanias "lines" (not detailled):



Last edited by [email protected]; May 10th, 2006 at 12:35 PM.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 12:53 PM   #45
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We know that Cercanias are actually suburban trains but I would like to know which type of equipment is used on the L6 to L8 ? Is it a "standard" metro ? Is it the same series as the lines L1 to L5 ? And the lines S1...R5 ?

Cercanias (446 series) near Barcelona:


A "standard" metro in Barcelona:

Last edited by [email protected]; May 10th, 2006 at 01:06 PM.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 02:13 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Are you telling me that the Metropolitan and Picadilly lines are actually sharing tracks ?

Then, the London tube network is even worst than I though.

In Paris there are multiple lines "skipping" stations of other lines, but they are all operated in dedicated tunnels. In many aspect, the RER A could be considered as the express line of line 1 and the RER B could be considered as the express line of line 4. Line 14 is also somewhere an express line of line 1 as it goes directly from Châtelet to Gare de Lyon while line 1 would stop at Hotel de Ville, Saint-Paul and Bastille.

But all those lines, RER and métro, are all operated in their dedicated tunnels. As such, you don't go through skipped stations as you would in NYC.
I'm unsure how it makes it worse: they are essentially surving the terminating branches of their line, creating double capacity on a populated branch before brancing off to approach Central London from different angles.

Also the RER is not a metro, but a hybrid meaning its neither a metro or commuter rail network, so you can't really count the RER as some sort of second metro when for the most part its also quite different from the Paris Metro. If you start counting commuter-characterisitc lines then you have to bring in thousands of lines from other cities which have high frequencies and have express-like services.

I'm unsure how you could even consider RER A an express of Line 1, when they have completely different routes, its a bit like saying the Victoria Line is the express line of the Piccadilly Line between Green Park and Finsbury Park! Absolute tosh!

Again, its the same for your other example of RER B and Line 4. Thats a bit like saying that betwen Fenchurch Street and Upminster, that the c2c line is the express line for the District Line, when in reality the tracks are only next to each other between West Ham and Upminster and where c2c actually acts as an express for the District Line as the tracks here are four

And again for your other example doesn't show anything cause again they split off, yes between Châtelet and Gare de Lyon there are no stops and on Line 1 there are 3, they are still not stations with services running past.

An example though would be Metropolitan Line and Jubilee Line between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. Technically the Metropolitan Line continues to act as an express line for the Jubilee Line until Baker Street, but the Jubilee Line descends into deep-level tunnels beneath the Metropolitan Line.


West Hampstead Jubilee Line Station



In the above example the Jubilee Line stops at both sides of the platform, while the Metropolitan Line passes by on seperate tracks either side. You can see the Metropolitan north-bound track to the right over that little fence. The south-bound Metropolitan track is on the other side (far left) which unfortunately can't be clearly seen. The other far two right tracks are the Chiltern Railways Lines that run alongside the Metropolitan right out to Amersham.

A google earth image showing the view of West Hampstead station, 2 Jubilee Line tracks, 2 Metropolitan Line tracks and 2 Chiltern Railways tracks.

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Old May 10th, 2006, 03:13 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_taylor
I'm unsure how it makes it worse: they are essentially surving the terminating branches of their line, creating double capacity on a populated branch before brancing off to approach Central London from different angles.
Well, my idea was simply that if two lines share tracks, then the traffic is necessarily scarcer since you need to manage trains of two lines on a single track. Now if those are branches of lines, the traffic is then already scarcer so it's indeed not that stupid.

Quote:
Also the RER is not a metro, but a hybrid meaning its neither a metro or commuter rail network, so you can't really count the RER as some sort of second metro when for the most part its also quite different from the Paris Metro. If you start counting commuter-characterisitc lines then you have to bring in thousands of lines from other cities which have high frequencies and have express-like services.

I'm unsure how you could even consider RER A an express of Line 1, when they have completely different routes, its a bit like saying the Victoria Line is the express line of the Piccadilly Line between Green Park and Finsbury Park! Absolute tosh!

Again, its the same for your other example of RER B and Line 4. Thats a bit like saying that betwen Fenchurch Street and Upminster, that the c2c line is the express line for the District Line, when in reality the tracks are only next to each other between West Ham and Upminster and where c2c actually acts as an express for the District Line as the tracks here are four

And again for your other example doesn't show anything cause again they split off, yes between Châtelet and Gare de Lyon there are no stops and on Line 1 there are 3, they are still not stations with services running past.
I agree with you on this. That's why I've specified that the RER A and B were operating in specific tunnels, making them not real express lines 1 and 4. The idea was that the RER A could be used as an express line 1 since the RER A stops at various stations which have connections with line 1 (La Défense-Grande Arche, Charles-de-Gaulle-Etoile, Châtelet, Gare de Lyon, Nation). However, once again I fully agree that this is not a properly express service, the idea was that it could be used as such.

Quote:
An example though would be Metropolitan Line and Jubilee Line between Wembley Park and Finchley Road. Technically the Metropolitan Line continues to act as an express line for the Jubilee Line until Baker Street, but the Jubilee Line descends into deep-level tunnels beneath the Metropolitan Line.

In the above example the Jubilee Line stops at both sides of the platform, while the Metropolitan Line passes by on seperate tracks either side. You can see the Metropolitan north-bound track to the right over that little fence. The south-bound Metropolitan track is on the other side (far left) which unfortunately can't be clearly seen. The other far two right tracks are the Chiltern Railways Lines that run alongside the Metropolitan right out to Amersham.

A google earth image showing the view of West Hampstead station, 2 Jubilee Line tracks, 2 Metropolitan Line tracks and 2 Chiltern Railways tracks.
I see your point. There are also numerous national rail services which are shared with Tube lines, skipping stations of the tube. I think for instance about the Northern part of the Metropolitan line, which is doubled by a national rail service directly linking the center of London to the distant stations of that Metropolitan line.

The Northern part of the Bakerloo line as much as various parts of the district lines and some of the Central line are also shared with national rails services. Though we couldn't really consider them as express services I guess as they seem, at least on the map, to stop at all stations.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 03:22 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
But bitxofo is not talking about Cercanias
RENFE is the name of the Spanish national rail company. It's the company operating Cercanias in Spain. What I had in mind was exactly what you've shown on your maps, which is the Cercanias network in Barcelona. Once again, the Cercanias in Barcelona can't be compared with the RER network, traffic is much lower and in the center all lines are operated on shared tracks. Each line don't have their dedicated tunnel.

If you'd ask me honnestly, the closer system to the RER would be the London Underground. The comparison is stunning especially on lines such as the District line, the Metropolitan line, or the Hammersmith&City line. No matter what is called the RER, the fact is that there are two urban rail network superimposed at one another in Paris : the Paris métro slower lines for the city core, and the RER express lines serving the urban area.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 03:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
Well, my idea was simply that if two lines share tracks, then the traffic is necessarily scarcer since you need to manage trains of two lines on a single track. Now if those are branches of lines, the traffic is then already scarcer so it's indeed not that stupid.

I agree with you on this. That's why I've specified that the RER A and B were operating in specific tunnels, making them not real express lines 1 and 4. The idea was that the RER A could be used as an express line 1 since the RER A stops at various stations which have connections with line 1 (La Défense-Grande Arche, Charles-de-Gaulle-Etoile, Châtelet, Gare de Lyon, Nation). However, once again I fully agree that this is not a properly express service, the idea was that it could be used as such.

I see your point. There are also numerous national rail services which are shared with Tube lines, skipping stations of the tube. I think for instance about the Northern part of the Metropolitan line, which is doubled by a national rail service directly linking the center of London to the distant stations of that Metropolitan line.

The Northern part of the Bakerloo line as much as various parts of the district lines and some of the Central line are also shared with national rails services. Though we couldn't really consider them as express services I guess as they seem, at least on the map, to stop at all stations.
They do share tracks, but only to add capacity, not decrease it. If you took the time to observe the network, you'd see that from the network that firstly the Metropolitan Line couldn't have a high capacity to Uxbridge because before trains get to the Uxbridge branch, trains diverge off to three other branches meaning capacity is spread over all four branches. Hence, to increase capacity to Uxbridge, the Piccadilly Line runs to Uxbridge. Half of all Piccadilly Line trains go to Uxbridge, compared to a quarter of all Metropolitan Line trains, so why build another line when the trains will be increasing the capacity and frequency along the same route. Infact its an excellent idea to allow for greater access to the London Underground.

Another example would be between Baker Street and Liverpool Street where the Hammersmith & City, Metropolitan and Circle Lines use the same tracks, but in the process of tripling capacity and frequency.

As set out, commuter-like systems are excluded, although in most cities they tend to operate side-by-side with metro service and most would include these as express services.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 04:59 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan
RENFE is the name of the Spanish national rail company. It's the company operating Cercanias in Spain. What I had in mind was exactly what you've shown on your maps, which is the Cercanias network in Barcelona. Once again, the Cercanias in Barcelona can't be compared with the RER network, traffic is much lower and in the center all lines are operated on shared tracks. Each line don't have their dedicated tunnel.

If you'd ask me honnestly, the closer system to the RER would be the London Underground. The comparison is stunning especially on lines such as the District line, the Metropolitan line, or the Hammersmith&City line. No matter what is called the RER, the fact is that there are two urban rail network superimposed at one another in Paris : the Paris métro slower lines for the city core, and the RER express lines serving the urban area.
You are completely wrong!

I am NOT talking about RENFE cercanías, but about FGC:

www.fgc.net

They are like RER, but better: cleaner and newer trains. We have got them in Barcelona since 1863 (1st "metro" in the world, same year as London).

FGC lines:
Metro del Vallès:

Metro del Baix Llobregat:


2 photos:
[IMG]http://i3.************/xns2ty.jpg[/IMG]
New train in Plaça Catalunya station.

[IMG]http://i3.************/xns31c.jpg[/IMG]
Old train in exhibition. Only running in special occasions.
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Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allí. Norreport+12000

Last edited by Bitxofo; May 10th, 2006 at 05:11 PM.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 05:08 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
We know that Cercanias are actually suburban trains but I would like to know which type of equipment is used on the L6 to L8 ? Is it a "standard" metro ? Is it the same series as the lines L1 to L5 ? And the lines S1...R5 ?

Cercanias (446 series) near Barcelona:


A "standard" metro in Barcelona:
FGC trains for L8 and S1, R5, etc.:

[IMG]http://i3.************/xnsqkn.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i2.************/xnsqpx.jpg[/IMG]
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Εγώ είμαι ο Νταβόρ!!
David (DavoR for my friends)
川添 Kawazoe (riverside) 海斗 Kaito (big dipper of the ocean), in Japanese.
Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allí. Norreport+12000
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Old May 10th, 2006, 05:49 PM   #52
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I think you're confusing railway with underground railway.
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Old May 10th, 2006, 08:13 PM   #53
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No!

FGC has got 3 metro lines in Barcelona: L6, L7 and L8.

And also suburban trains like RER.
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Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allí. Norreport+12000
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Old May 11th, 2006, 01:12 AM   #54
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are there any other subway system in the world that has four track setup like nyc?
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Old May 11th, 2006, 01:54 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitxofo
No!

FGC has got 3 metro lines in Barcelona: L6, L7 and L8.

And also suburban trains like RER.
I'd like to see evidence of this, but I can only think that what you are thinking of are lines that were normal railways, but were at a far later date either dug underground or have sections that are underground.

More evidence, less smilies.


Edit: It would appear that they are commuter lines, NOT metro lines, although they look a lot like trams in some pictures. The Barcelona Metro opened in 1924.

Last edited by nick_taylor; May 11th, 2006 at 02:21 AM.
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Old May 11th, 2006, 03:22 AM   #56
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You have NO idea about BCN metro...

There are 2 companies in BCN metro: TMB (L1, L2, L3, L4, L5 & L11) and FGC (L6, L7 & L8). FGC have got suburban services too, very similar to RER.

More info at:
http://de.geocities.com/m_barcel/barcelona.htm

P.S.: FGC 1st metro line in 1863, TMB 1st metro line in 1924.
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Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allí. Norreport+12000
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Old May 11th, 2006, 03:56 AM   #57
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Well Bitxofo, I think that you can't argue for both ways.

If FGC lines 6-8 operate a metro-like service but are suburban rails, then I don't think you can consider it metro.

If FGC lines 6-8 operates like a metro and thus is one of the first metros in the world along with London, then you can't call it an RER service.

I think that that FGC should be compared to RER, as such, I would say the first metro in Barcelona opened in 1924.

In any case Nick, it is OBVIOUS that these lines are not a generic railway service.
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Old May 11th, 2006, 05:40 AM   #58
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FGC L6, L7 and L8 are NOT suburban lines, DonQui, They are full metro! Look at the map, please!!

Suburban lines of FGC are:
S1, S2, S3, S33, etc. (S meaning SUBURBAN).

FGC have got metro lines and suburban lines: BOTH.

This is my last word about this subject, it is not so difficult to understand! Or you better come to Barcelona, and I show you this system, guys.
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Yo si la ciudad no tiene metro, como que no es gran ciudad y entonces ya paso de vivir allí. Norreport+12000
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Old May 11th, 2006, 06:26 AM   #59
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The Gold line in LA (downtown to Pasadena) recently added Express service, whihc skips most of the stops.
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Old May 11th, 2006, 11:10 AM   #60
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bitxofo - Your own source doesn't prove that, it says metros began running in 1924! What I don't get also is that some of those stations appear to have started construction in 1863.....but weren't finished until 1929? I think thats the confusion here.

I have to agree with DonQui, you can't double count a system and anyway there have been railway stations built underground in Britain before the London Underground. Liverpool's original 1830's Lime Street comes to mind, but its not a metro.
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