MELBOURNE > East / West / North Melbourne, E-gate, Fishermans Bend - Page 141

John_Proctor · March 18th, 2012, 10:06 AM

Best bet is to reserve space for either a tunnel or overhead line and when all the rest of the current known infrastructure backlog is resolved we can think about buidlign it, maybe in 2050 or thereabouts. (wide central median of a new road probably best bet)

Max Patterson · March 19th, 2012, 07:01 AM

but even then, an elevated railway should be at the back of a block not down the middle of a wide main road. For instance you wouldn't run a elevated train down a Collins St... better down Little Collins St or through the middle of a block. Then its out of the way visually and makes the whole area more appealing.

tower_dan · March 19th, 2012, 07:06 AM

but if you run it through a back street it just gves rise to the back street to become a dirty seedy area. who is going ot want to invest in something that overlooks a back street with an elevated rail line?

Max Patterson · March 19th, 2012, 07:09 AM

I think the idea of "light rail" is to easily dismissed on here. Either most formers have no idea what a real Light Rail is or they just assume its a lowly Z or even C class tram running along a former Heavy Rail line. True Light Rail is more like 4 z class trams coupled together or 2 - 3 of our largest trams coupled together. And even then with a more appropriate specialised carriage and fairly modest works at intersections over passes you can effectively run them as trains all be it smaller.

Max Patterson · March 19th, 2012, 07:11 AM

ah but dan no one lives on the 3 floor as it is a carpark... no loss then is it?

Max Patterson · March 19th, 2012, 07:13 AM

a bit more imagination would also have a developer building a nice "elevated park" above elevated train line... no gaps to ground between buildings too.

tower_dan · March 19th, 2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Patterson

ah but dan no one lives on the 3 floor as it is a carpark... no loss then is it?

but we are always bitching about southbanks above groun carparks. im sure we all hope that if FB goes ahead it imposes "wrap around" apartments for the parpark levels so at least the whole area isnt dominated with 7 levels of car parks ALA southbank.

and it will be a shot in a pigs ass if a developer spontaneously decides to build over an elevated rail way for an unprofitable bit of parkland.

Max Patterson · March 19th, 2012, 08:01 AM

South bank is a problem because it had existing infrastructure ie. roads and some buildings worth saving, oh and shit soil for digging car parks under the gl at a cost that was practicable. With the new development areas none of that is an issue other than the shit soil.

So therefore 7 levels of car park aren't a problem if every tower has 7 levels of it. What an imaginative person would do is raise the "Ground Level" to the top of the 7 levels. You can stack a lot of things on top of each other in the space that a 7 storey car park canyon creates.

Furthermore you no longer need to worry about street activation at the existing ground level (it's never had any so why bother trying to reactivate it now, in the case of Southbank) as it doesn't matter when you have that same street "roofed" over and a new car free pedestrian "Street" with grass and tree's and all that other crap that people like 7 stories up. It would be the equivalent of raising the gl with a huge load of soil on top of the existing gl.... then excavating that "hill" for a carpark and building a tower on top of that. For FB think as if you where doing that but for the whole area.... except you don't need the soil (cause that would be naff) you just create the same effect with concrete columns and beams. And your wrap around apartments would only be needed to wrap around the perimeter of the whole FB site.

John_Proctor · March 19th, 2012, 08:10 AM

re: that option given that the urban footprint is roughly 30-40% public spaces (road/park etc) that adds a large burden onto the infrastrture cost of the area to the public purse... transfers the cost of developers doing innovative solutions to 'activate' the actual street level by making taxpayers pay to build an elevated road for no other purpose than to make the development lazier (but not necessarily a great deal cheaper or better).

I was thinking elevated line down the Williamstown Road median which is about a 40m road reserve rather than some little 28m wide road.

eg. split some tracks off from SXS short tunnel from SXS under yarra to Williamstown Road Ingles Street intersection then pop up and elevated down what is currently the central turning lane...

another option would be to widen the length of williamstown road to the north by say 5-10m into the industrial land and have more space for it then.

stations sit above the reserve with pedestrian access from both sides of the road.

Max Patterson · March 19th, 2012, 08:16 AM

i guess but why bother ruining what will become a nice wide avenue... with an elevated train, may as well run it down the 28m road

tower_dan · March 19th, 2012, 08:41 AM

you cant realistically raise the entire ground level as you suggest. this aint futurama after the aliens destroyed NYC and they had to build NEW NYC on its ruins...

you will likely get a number of buildings that are car park free in this (to be) highly accessible area. so that debunks the whole idea rigth there.

dockman · March 20th, 2012, 03:08 AM

It can be done though. Anyone who has been to La Defence in Paris can attest.

Melb_SuperTall · March 20th, 2012, 09:21 AM

The closest Ive been to La Defence was the roof of the arc de triomphe and all I can say is it looked awesome

Mickeebee · March 20th, 2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melb_SuperTall

The closest Ive been to La Defence was the roof of the arc de triomphe and all I can say is it looked awesome

Looks great but it is actually a bit wind blown...and kinda has a very cold feeling to it.

Alphaville · March 20th, 2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickeebee

Looks great but it is actually a bit wind blown...and kinda has a very cold feeling to it.

Like Melbourne Docklands, Canary Wharf or any similar mass urban redevelopment, it is wind swept.

Still, the actual arch is very impressive. I rode the little elevator up the glass tubes to the top of it for a killer view back over old Paris.

ooh · March 20th, 2012, 11:54 PM

La Defense was the turning point in my love of high-rise buildings & density. I enjoyed Paris as a city but La Defense was the real "wow" moment. The arch is fantastic, as is Tour First and a couple of others. But I agree with everyone else that it is a little void of energy and life.

A bit like Chicago's financial part of the CBD... windswept, "cold" feeling, bleak, without energy & life. Still awe inspiring.

dockman · March 21st, 2012, 01:48 AM

Don't disagree with any of these comments, just stating that the cars all run undernearth the pedestrian realm......

Mickeebee · March 21st, 2012, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphaville

Like Melbourne Docklands, Canary Wharf or any similar mass urban redevelopment, it is wind swept.

Still, the actual arch is very impressive. I rode the little elevator up the glass tubes to the top of it for a killer view back over old Paris.

Agreed......Canary Whard especially is quite depressing most of the time.
I found the glass elevators kind of terrifying

Melb_SuperTall · March 21st, 2012, 07:22 AM

Well it was quite a hot day when I was looking at it so I guess any place that was windswept would be a prime spot on a day like that. Being cold and windswept is not always a bad thing

I think once/if Melbournes population gets bigger the spaces will start to fill up with people which in turn will bring the vibe. I really do think the number 1 hinderance to Docklands is those damn rail lines.. They are beyond ugly and act as a barrier. There has to be something that could be done about them. There is so much wasted space around Dynon road and that general area where you see like 2 shipping containers on a bit of land and the rest is just weeds etc.

Max Patterson · March 22nd, 2012, 02:43 AM

I've stood on the corner of Bourke and Elizabeth and nearly been bowled over by the wind, as well as washed away, i have never understood the preoccupation people have with saying docklands is too windy.... Wind is every where people!! Its just one of a usual list of complaints people wheel out to make there argument seem legitimate

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March 18th, 2012, 10:06 AM	#2801
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	Best bet is to reserve space for either a tunnel or overhead line and when all the rest of the current known infrastructure backlog is resolved we can think about buidlign it, maybe in 2050 or thereabouts. (wide central median of a new road probably best bet)

March 19th, 2012, 07:01 AM	#2802
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	but even then, an elevated railway should be at the back of a block not down the middle of a wide main road. For instance you wouldn't run a elevated train down a Collins St... better down Little Collins St or through the middle of a block. Then its out of the way visually and makes the whole area more appealing.

March 19th, 2012, 07:06 AM	#2803
tower_dan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,513 Likes (Received): 3	but if you run it through a back street it just gves rise to the back street to become a dirty seedy area. who is going ot want to invest in something that overlooks a back street with an elevated rail line?

March 19th, 2012, 07:09 AM	#2804
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	I think the idea of "light rail" is to easily dismissed on here. Either most formers have no idea what a real Light Rail is or they just assume its a lowly Z or even C class tram running along a former Heavy Rail line. True Light Rail is more like 4 z class trams coupled together or 2 - 3 of our largest trams coupled together. And even then with a more appropriate specialised carriage and fairly modest works at intersections over passes you can effectively run them as trains all be it smaller.

March 19th, 2012, 07:11 AM	#2805
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	ah but dan no one lives on the 3 floor as it is a carpark... no loss then is it?

March 19th, 2012, 07:13 AM	#2806
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	a bit more imagination would also have a developer building a nice "elevated park" above elevated train line... no gaps to ground between buildings too.

March 19th, 2012, 08:01 AM	#2808
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	South bank is a problem because it had existing infrastructure ie. roads and some buildings worth saving, oh and shit soil for digging car parks under the gl at a cost that was practicable. With the new development areas none of that is an issue other than the shit soil. So therefore 7 levels of car park aren't a problem if every tower has 7 levels of it. What an imaginative person would do is raise the "Ground Level" to the top of the 7 levels. You can stack a lot of things on top of each other in the space that a 7 storey car park canyon creates. Furthermore you no longer need to worry about street activation at the existing ground level (it's never had any so why bother trying to reactivate it now, in the case of Southbank) as it doesn't matter when you have that same street "roofed" over and a new car free pedestrian "Street" with grass and tree's and all that other crap that people like 7 stories up. It would be the equivalent of raising the gl with a huge load of soil on top of the existing gl.... then excavating that "hill" for a carpark and building a tower on top of that. For FB think as if you where doing that but for the whole area.... except you don't need the soil (cause that would be naff) you just create the same effect with concrete columns and beams. And your wrap around apartments would only be needed to wrap around the perimeter of the whole FB site.

March 19th, 2012, 08:10 AM	#2809
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	re: that option given that the urban footprint is roughly 30-40% public spaces (road/park etc) that adds a large burden onto the infrastrture cost of the area to the public purse... transfers the cost of developers doing innovative solutions to 'activate' the actual street level by making taxpayers pay to build an elevated road for no other purpose than to make the development lazier (but not necessarily a great deal cheaper or better). I was thinking elevated line down the Williamstown Road median which is about a 40m road reserve rather than some little 28m wide road. eg. split some tracks off from SXS short tunnel from SXS under yarra to Williamstown Road Ingles Street intersection then pop up and elevated down what is currently the central turning lane... another option would be to widen the length of williamstown road to the north by say 5-10m into the industrial land and have more space for it then. stations sit above the reserve with pedestrian access from both sides of the road.

March 19th, 2012, 08:16 AM	#2810
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	i guess but why bother ruining what will become a nice wide avenue... with an elevated train, may as well run it down the 28m road

March 19th, 2012, 08:41 AM	#2811
tower_dan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,513 Likes (Received): 3	you cant realistically raise the entire ground level as you suggest. this aint futurama after the aliens destroyed NYC and they had to build NEW NYC on its ruins... you will likely get a number of buildings that are car park free in this (to be) highly accessible area. so that debunks the whole idea rigth there.

March 20th, 2012, 03:08 AM	#2812
dockman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,251 Likes (Received): 8	It can be done though. Anyone who has been to La Defence in Paris can attest.

March 20th, 2012, 09:21 AM	#2813
Melb_SuperTall AnxiousAsFcuk Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: ME!BOURNE Posts: 559 Likes (Received): 4	The closest Ive been to La Defence was the roof of the arc de triomphe and all I can say is it looked awesome

March 20th, 2012, 11:54 PM	#2816
ooh Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,321 Likes (Received): 5	La Defense was the turning point in my love of high-rise buildings & density. I enjoyed Paris as a city but La Defense was the real "wow" moment. The arch is fantastic, as is Tour First and a couple of others. But I agree with everyone else that it is a little void of energy and life. A bit like Chicago's financial part of the CBD... windswept, "cold" feeling, bleak, without energy & life. Still awe inspiring.

March 21st, 2012, 01:48 AM	#2817
dockman Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,251 Likes (Received): 8	Don't disagree with any of these comments, just stating that the cars all run undernearth the pedestrian realm......

March 21st, 2012, 07:22 AM	#2819
Melb_SuperTall AnxiousAsFcuk Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: ME!BOURNE Posts: 559 Likes (Received): 4	Well it was quite a hot day when I was looking at it so I guess any place that was windswept would be a prime spot on a day like that. Being cold and windswept is not always a bad thing I think once/if Melbournes population gets bigger the spaces will start to fill up with people which in turn will bring the vibe. I really do think the number 1 hinderance to Docklands is those damn rail lines.. They are beyond ugly and act as a barrier. There has to be something that could be done about them. There is so much wasted space around Dynon road and that general area where you see like 2 shipping containers on a bit of land and the rest is just weeds etc.

March 22nd, 2012, 02:43 AM	#2820
Max Patterson Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 734 Likes (Received): 0	I've stood on the corner of Bourke and Elizabeth and nearly been bowled over by the wind, as well as washed away, i have never understood the preoccupation people have with saying docklands is too windy.... Wind is every where people!! Its just one of a usual list of complaints people wheel out to make there argument seem legitimate