Archaeology Thread

[drwho]

Archaeologists working on India's south-west coast believe they may have solved the mystery of the location of a major port which was key to trade between India and the Roman Empire - Muziris, in the modern-day state of Kerala.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4970452.stm

[VaastuShastra]

Nice - at one point the Roman Empire considered protectionist trade policies, as their gold resevres were heading there :-)

[IndiansUnite]

Via HT delhi June 21 06

[VaastuShastra]

Step wells are a marvel - its great to see one so old.

[Anniyan]

Ancient rock art dating back to 1500 B.C. found in Tamil Nadu

http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/27/stor...2704181200.htm

[MaduraiSelvam]

Isai Tamil inscription in ruins

Karthik Madhavan

Erode: The oldest Isai Tamil inscription, dating back to the 2nd century, is no longer visible clearly. Soot, ash and stones have rendered illegible the inscription, which is in Tamil Brahmi, a script like Devanagari. It is in a cave, on the western end of the hillock in Arachalur.
The inscriptions are tala notes (adavu) that a Bharatnatyam dancer dances to. It has five lines and as many rows, resembling a five-row - five-column matrix. It has been arranged in such a way that read either from left to right or top to bottom it reads the same. It is a palindrome as well.
Close by is another inscription, which is also in Tamil Brahmi. It talks about the person who chiselled the above-mentioned lines. Most of it is damaged. The third inscription is equally bad. Tamil Brahmi Kal-vettukkal, a book on Tamil Brahmi, published by the State Department of Archeology, acknowledges the damage. What is pitiful is that the inscriptions came to light only about five decades ago, when Prof. S. Raju, an epigraphist of Erode, discovered them in the early 1960s. He says they were carved by wandering Jain monks, who came south during Chandra Gupta Maurya's time.
On the importance of the inscription, Prof. Raju says it is the oldest in Isai Tamil. He adds that apart from what the inscriptions convey, they hold additional importance in that they are a very important link in the evolution of Tamil vattaezhuthu (cursive letters).
Most of the inscriptions on Malai Vannakkan Devan Sathan are damaged. That these inscriptions were chiselled inside caves where the Jain monks used to rest has only compounded the damage. For, using the perfect cover that the rock-roof provides, locals indulge in merrymaking. Prof. Raju says he wants the State Department of Archaeology to immediately take up conservation work.

http://www.thehindu.com/2006/11/06/s...0609370100.htm

[MaduraiSelvam]

Skeletons, script found at ancient burial site in Tamil Nadu

By T.S. Subramanian

An urn containing a human skull and bones unearthed by the Archaeological Survey of India at Adhichanallur, near Tirunelveli town in Tamil Nadu. Twelve of these urns (below) contain human skeletons. Three of them, which may be 2,800 years old, bear inscriptions that resemble the early Tamil Brahmi script. -- Photos: A. Shaikmohideen

CHENNAI, MAY 25. In spectacular finds, the Archaeological Survey of India, Chennai Circle, has unearthed a dozen 2,800-year-old human skeletons intact in urns at Adichanallur, 24 km from Tirunelveli in Tamil Nadu. Three of these urns contain writing resembling the early Tamil Brahmi script. The dozen urns containing the skeletons form a part of about 100 fully intact urns unearthed in various trenches at the site, where excavation is under way. The urns were found at a depth of two to three metres. The finds may revolutionise theories about the origin of ancient culture in Tamil Nadu and the origin of writing in South Asia.
T. Satyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist, ASI, Chennai Circle, the director of excavation at Adichanallur, said: "People generally think that megalithic culture is the earliest culture in South India, especially in Tamil Nadu. In our excavation [at Adichanallur], we have come across a culture earlier than the megalithic period." The megalithic period in South India ranges from 3rd century B.C. to 3rd century A.D.
Dr. Satyamurthy called Adichanallur "the earliest historical site in Tamil Nadu." The ASI would conduct "a thorough exploration of the area" to find out whether there had been any habitation nearby. If such a site was found, it would be the first discovery of its kind in Tamil Nadu. So far, no habitation belonging to this period had been found in the State. He described the discovery of writing resembling the early Tamil Brahmi script on the urns as "very important."
Samples of the skeletons have been sent to the National Geophysical Research Institute, Hyderabad, for carbon-14 dating.
Along with the skeletons, husks, grains of rice, charred rice and neolithic celts (axe-like instruments used in agricultural operations) have been found.
The skeletons found in two or three urns show that prior to the megalithic period, these people used to inter the dead in urns along with the items they had used. Early Tamil Sangam works contained elaborate descriptions of the urn-burial custom. At Adichanallur, pottery belonging to the early historic period, which stretches from 3rd century B.C. to 3rd century A.D., was found on the upper layers of the trenches and the urns were found below. So the discoveries at Adichanallur may go back to 7th or 8th century B.C., probably earlier than the Sangam period, Dr. Satyamurthy said.
He said that since the Brahmi script was found together with the skeletons, the date of the script could be determined if they could fix the date of the skeletons. "So far, we have been doing it on palaeographic grounds. Now, we will get a scientific date." He said that the script might refer to names.
Dr. Sathyamurthy said that the Brahmi script of around 500 B.C. had been found in Sri Lanka. Dr. S.U. Deraniyagala, former Director-General and now Consultant to the Archaeological Survey Department, Sri Lanka, called the discovery of the writing on the urns at Adichanallur "fantastic" and "very, very important." The evidence of writing on more than 75 pieces of pottery had been found in Sri Lanka and radio-carbon dating had established that they belonged to the period between 600 B.C. and 500 B.C. This discovery "sheds a completely new light on the origin of writing in South Asia," said Dr. Deraniyagala. Interestingly, there has been no evidence of habitation close to the cemeteries (burial sites) discovered there. According to G. Thirumoorthy, Assistant Archaeologist, ASI, Chennai Circle, many artefacts had been found along with the skeletons at Adichanallur.
They included miniature bowls made of clay that were used in rituals, black and red wares of megalithic period ranging from the 7th century B.C. to 2nd century A.D., potsherds with graffiti marks, iron spearheads, knife-blades and hopscotches of various shapes including those in perfect circles. These hopscotches were used as weights, he said.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/05/26...2602871200.htm

[sgups]

I got this image in an email. I dont want to go ga-ga till I know the article actually was published in the hindu.

[MaduraiSelvam]

Originally Posted by sgups

I got this image in an email. I dont want to go ga-ga till I know the article actually was published in the hindu.

Well definitely not the hindu publication, its fake a photoshop work spread around in an email earlier.

[MaduraiSelvam]

Rock galleries
TEXTS: T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
PICTURES: K.T. GANDHIRAJAN AND P. MANIVANNAN
The discovery of rock art, dating back to 2000 B.C., in Tamil Nadu offers a peek into history.

Four men, bound by a passion for exploration and art history, arrived at Puliyankandi village near Aliyar in Coimbatore district, Tamil Nadu, in the second week of May. The apparent aim was to conduct a workshop on the art and heritage of the Nilgiris for tribal children. Of particular interest to the group was the exploration of not-yet-discovered areas of rock art; the hill ranges formed an archaeological wonderland with all types of rock art, particularly cave paintings. This time they hit the jackpot.
Prof. G. Chandrasekaran, Principal of the Government College of Fine Arts in Chennai, has been on several such expeditions with his colleague K. Natarajan and K.T. Gandhirajan and P. Manivannan. Gandhirajan is a postgraduate in Art History from Madurai-Kamaraj University, Madurai, and Manivannan is Senior Designer at The Hindu, Chennai. The group's strategy is to quiz local people, shepherds, cowherds and honey-gatherers if they have come across rock paintings in their areas.

THE CENTAUR-LIKE IMAGE in white ochre at Karikkiyur, the largest rock art site in South India.
Thus, when Gandhirajan asked the children at the Puliyankandi workshop if they had seen any such paintings on rocks in their villages, a girl sprang to her feet and replied excitedly that she had seen paintings of elephants on a rock-shelter near her village. But she could not explain clearly where the hill was. However, that was enough for the group, which included a few students of Chandrasekaran's college, to head for the child's village, about 45 km from Valparai. Most villagers they inquired about rock paintings had seen no such thing but spoke about "stone-houses" (dolmens) in the area. However, an old woman remembered having seen rock paintings at a place called Koppathuparai. The group now trekked to Koppathuparai, from where a local guide took them to Mavadaippu village. What they saw there surprised them.

The rock surface in Mavadaippu has a mix of ancient rock art, contemporary tribal paintings, and graffiti.
"A massive rock surface, curving inwards, confronted us," said Gandhirajan. "It looked like an arched dome. The entire natural cavern was painted with rock art. A spectacular feature of the site is that the rock surface is an admixture of ancient rock art and contemporary tribal paintings, showing a continuity of tradition." There were modern graffiti, too.

PROF. G. CHANDRASEKARAN (extreme right) watching his team take estampages of the petroglyphs in a cave at Yerpettu near Kothagiri.
The painted surface is about 40 feet (12 metres) long and 20 feet wide. The images include a tiger, a deer with straight horns, anthropomorphic figures marching inside a circle, an elephant seizing a man with its trunk while another man chased it, and several paintings of a bamboo-ladder used for taking honey from the heights. Contemporary tribal paintings show the profile of a man wearing a headgear and that of another man in a tight-fitting coat with rectangular designs on it. This man has his right hand raised, while his left hand rests on the waist.
The Karikkiyur surprise

THERE ARE ABOUT 20 dolmens in four different locations about a kilometre from Mavadaippu.
Mavadaippu is the latest discovery by the team. It had discovered a prehistoric rock art site at Porivarai (2003), and ancient rock paintings at Salekkurai and Sundasingam (2005), near Karikkiyur, about 40 km from Kothagiri in the Nilgiris. In fact, the team was totally unprepared for what awaited it at Porivarai. It turned out to be the largest rock art site in South India with about 500 paintings in an area that is 53 m long and 15 m wide. Experts say the rock paintings at both Mavadaippu and Karikkiyur could be dated to 2000 B.C. to 1500 B.C. How did they stumble upon this treasure trove? The group was at Kothagiri to provide training in arts and crafts to tribal youth at the Don Bosco Community College when it visited Konavakarai, a tribal village, where a rock art site reportedly existed. But the villagers were not aware of its existence. Disappointed, the team returned to the college in Chennai. During a discussion on rock art that evening, an Irula tribal student from Karikkiyur said he had seen such paintings on a rock-shelter in a forest near his village. Chandrasekaran and Gandhirajan lost no time in making it to Karikkiyur. A 7-km trek through an elephant corridor led them to the rock-shelter, locally known as Porivarai.
The paintings in white ochre include a procession of bisons, monkeys clambering up a tree branch, a herd of deer grazing, human beings welcoming one another with outstretched arms, a battle scene with men aiming at each other with bows and arrows, men on horseback engaged in battle, a shoulder-clasping dance after a successful boar-hunt, a man with a mask, the depiction of sun and its rays, a spiral, a tiger fighting another animal, and a man and his dog sleeping.

THE MASTERPIECE OF Karikkiyur is a realistic depiction of bisons moving in a row, in red ochre.
Gandhirajan calls it "a huge gallery of ancient rock art, the biggest in South India in terms of size and the number of paintings". The rock surface had been continually painted for about 3,000 years by different artists at various times, he said. No other rock art site in South India can rival Karikkiyur by the sheer number of paintings and the themes they represent. Some figures are outlines or sketches; others are solid images. "The prehistoric artists used white kaolin and red ochre to paint them. They may have used animal fat or vegetable juice as a binding medium," he said. "The rock surface is in different shades of grey. The artists chose white pigment to paint in dark grey areas, proving how intelligent they were." A remarkable feature of the Karikkiyur rock art is that while the original artist made the painting in white ochre, the succeeding artist used red ochre to work on the same painting, trying his skill at ornamentation. Sometimes, the second artist mistook an animal and redrew it into another animal.

REMARKABLE FEATURES OF Karikkiyur rock art are images like monkeys clambering up a branch.
An outstanding painting shows monkeys marching in a single file on the curved branch of a tree. The attention to detail is amazing. The monkeys on the lower side of the branch are shown clinging on to it upside down even as they stay in line. Another beautiful painting depicts a big herd of grazing deer. "This painting is in symmetry," said Gandhirajan. "It needs skill to draw the same image repetitively because you need to have a sense of proportion and symmetry."

Victory-dance after a hunt.
Another set of solid images is that of a child sacrifice - a man holding a curved sword in one hand and dangling a child from the other, and a centaur-like figure.
The masterpiece at Karikkiyur is a red-ochre painting of a group of seven bisons moving in a row. One of them has a calf in tow. In the opposite direction comes another bison. Above the group of bisons is a solid white-ochre image of a monitor lizard (udumbu in Tamil).

A human sacrifice.
Another salient feature of the Karikkiyur rock art is the depiction of everyday life through scenes such as an animal playing with its calf or feeding it, two bulls fighting, a celebration, battle scenes or a fight between a man and an animal. There are also several X-ray-like images in white ochre, showing the rib cages of animals. Later generations of artists shaded them in red ochre. Also seen are trees and plants, which are generally not found in rock art.
NEW SITES
The first discovery of rock painting in Tamil Nadu was at Mallapadi in Dharmapuri district in 1978 by K.V. Raman, then Head of the Department of Ancient History and Archaeology of the University of Madras. In 2005, the State Department of Archaeology brought out a publication called Rock Art of Tamil Nadu. Its editor, T.S. Sridhar, who was then Special Commissioner, Department of Archaeology, wrote in its preface that Raman's discovery "flagged off the race for identifying new sites and the effort has not been in vain". He wrote: "Till date, more than thirty sites along the Western and the Eastern Ghats [in Tamil Nadu] have been identified, many of them by officers of the State Department of Archaeology. This has conclusively proved the existence of cavemen who inhabited the rocky shelters of Tamil Nadu in the megalithic period (the Iron Age). This has also established the State's claims to be considered as one of the important regions for studying and interpreting rock art."

A man and his dog sleeping.
"The rock art of Tamil Nadu displays great virtues of balance, appropriate use of colour, love of nature and a keen understanding of the life and times of the inhabitants. Scenes of battlefield, travel, hunting, festivities and food habits are depicted with realism and sensitivity. All the images etched on rock surfaces clearly demonstrate their urge to express themselves in forms that are intelligible... . Their study is at once fascinating and illuminating," according to Sridhar.
In Tamil Nadu, rock art is found in Villupuram, Dharmapuri, Krishnagiri, Madurai, the Nilgiris, Coimbatore, Sivaganga, Vellore and Dindigul districts. Notable among the sites are Kilvalai, Alambadi and Settavarai in Villupuram; Mallapadi, Maharajakadai and Mallachandram, now in Krishnagiri district; Konavakarai, Iduhatti, Karikkiyur and Vellerikombai in the Nilgiris; and Anaipatti, Muthupatti and Kidaripatti in Madurai.
Rock art falls into two categories. The first is petrograms or pictographs, which are paintings done in white or red ochre. The second is petroglyphs, figures chiselled out on rock surface. In Tamil Nadu, petroglyphs are found at Perumukkal, about 12 km from Tindivanam, and at the remote, densely forested Yerpettu, 25 km from Kothagiri. Mahalingam, an elderly Kurumba tribal person, led the team to the petroglyphs in a dark cave near Yerpettu. The images include that of a tree and human beings. The team has made estampages of the petroglyphs.

A battle scene at Karikkiyur, depicting men with bows and arrows and on horse back. Gandhirajan, a tireless explorer, says it is not easy to locate a rock art site. "If we go in search of 100 sites, we shall consider ourselves lucky if we can discover rock art in ten," he said.
In fact, the team got a bonus on reaching Mavadaippu late in the afternoon on May 17: it discovered not just a rock art site, but about 20 dolmens in four different locations just about a kilometre from the village. Most dolmens are in good shape, some are broken down and in ruins. A few are big enough to accommodate four persons. The dolmens are in different shapes - square, rectangular and even circular. A particular big dolmen has a run-down "compound wall", about a metre tall, around it.

AT YERPETTU, A rare find of engravings that date back several thousands of years in a cave deep in the Nilgiri forests.
Mavadaippu, in the backdrop of the Anamalai hills, is a small, enchanting tribal village with huts made of bamboo plats packed with clay. It is about 7 km from the Kadamparai hydel power station. The area is full of bamboo forests and is a favourite haunt of elephants. The tribal people make intricate "ladders" using bamboo poles. According to Manivannan, the technology to make them is kept a secret. The tribal people rig them up at night. The leitmotif in the Mavadaippu rock art is the bamboo ladder. A number of mystic symbols also appear. There are paintings of elephants, cattle, tiger, deer, wild boar and porcupine, and of human beings dancing or fighting.

AT MAVADAIPPU, IN the backdrop of the Anamalai hills, human and animal figures in white ochre. The prehistoric artists used white kaolin, lime or even ash to paint these figures. Contemporary tribal people have used enamel paint to embellish some of these paintings. They also have made beautiful paintings of elephants, peacocks and so on. The painting of a bus indicates how the arrival of one there must have been an exciting event.
What mars the beauty of these paintings is the modern-day graffiti by people from the plains below, who have scrawled their names in Tamil. Chandrasekaran has appealed the State government to protect these and other rock art sites.

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/storie...9000206400.htm

[Jai]

fascinating

[Jai]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

Well definitely not the hindu publication, its fake a photoshop work spread around in an email earlier.

Yeah, I've seen that before. Its from a photoshop contest

[MaduraiSelvam]

Sangam Age seal or brockage?


The two sides of the silver seal.

CHENNAI: A beautiful silver seal from the Tamil Sangam Age, probably about 2,000 years old, has come to light. Weighing less than 2 grams and with a diameter of about 1.8 cm, it was originally meant to affix a royal grant.
On the obverse side it has a mirror image of the Chera king of the Sangam Age, called Makkotai, facing left, and the legend ‘Makkotai’ in Tamil Brahmi script placed inside a dotted circle. It shows the king with a helmet, in a feature comparable to coins of Tiberius Julius Alexander of the first century A.D.
While the portrait coins of Chera kings Makkotai and Kuttuvan Kotai are uniface (with the reverse side remaining blank), this one has the word ‘Ponko’, engraved with a stylus, in Tamil Brahmi script, on the reverse. The legend is incomplete.
R. Vaidyanadhan, an Assistant Editor (Sports) with The Hindu, has obtained this rare find. He already has in his collection silver punch mark coins of Bimbisara and Asoka, and from British India.
R. Krishnamurthy, numismatist and Editor of the Tamil newspaper Dinamalar, who inspected the piece, said: “This is an important discovery. The importance is due to the inscription ‘Ponko’ [the golden king] engraved on the reverse.”
Mr. Vaidyanadhan initially thought it was a “seal” to accord a royal grant but later concluded it was a brockage. A study of the seals of the Roman kings of the first century A.D. showed that seals were made of hard material such as bronze, he said. Besides, he argued, this silver piece was not mounted on any other object, proving it was not a seal but a brockage. The impression on this brockage was incuse. Since it was a uniface coin, no image was registered on the reverse (but the legend ‘Ponko’ was engraved on the reverse), he added.
A Dictionary of Ancient Roman Coins by John Melville Jones (Seaby, London, 1990) says numismatists use the word “brockage” to “describe a coin which has been faultily struck because its predecessor has remained stuck in one of the dies (normally the upper one, where it might escape notice). The new coin, or brockage, then bears on one side an incuse impression of the previous coin rather than the relief type which should have appeared on it.” The word “incuse” is used to describe a coin that has an impression that appears to be recessed rather than standing out.
Dr. Krishnamurthy, however, said it was a brockage. It was a seal, he asserted. He explained that a die was made of metal such as bronze. When a coin got stuck in a die and another coin were to be struck on it, the metal impression would not be perfect on the subsequent coin. “But the impression of the Chera king is perfect in this seal. Besides, it is beautiful. This perfection will not be imparted to an image which is minted by a brockage material.”
He did not agree with Mr. Vaidyanadhan’s argument that the impression on the brockage was an incuse. “This seal has no incuse image. It has a raised image.”

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/28/stor...2857992200.htm

[kvijayasundaram]

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stor...2158412400.htm

A broken storage jar with inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi script has been excavated at Quseir-al-Qadim, an ancient port with a Roman settlement on the Red Sea coast of Egypt. This Tamil Brahmi script has been dated to first century B.C. One expert described this as an “exciting discovery.”

The same inscription is incised twice on the opposite sides of the jar. The inscription reads paanai oRi, that is, pot (suspended) in a rope net.

An archaeological team belonging to the University of Southampton in the U.K., comprising Prof. D. Peacock and Dr. L. Blue, who recently re-opened excavations at Quseir-al-Qadim in Egypt, discovered a fragmentary pottery vessel with inscriptions.

Dr. Roberta Tomber, a pottery specialist at the British Museum, London, identified the fragmentary vessel as a storage jar made in India.

Iravatham Mahadevan, a specialist in Tamil epigraphy, has confirmed that the inscription on the jar is in Tamil written in the Tamil Brahmi script of about first century B.C.

In deciphering the inscription, he has had the benefit of expert advice from Prof. Y. Subbarayalu of the French Institute of Pondicherry, Prof. K. Rajan of Central University, Puducherry and Prof. V. Selvakumar, Tamil University, Thanjavur.

According to Mr. Mahadevan, the inscription is quite legible and reads: paanai oRi, that is, ‘pot (suspended in) a rope net.’ The Tamil word uRi, which means rope network to suspend pots has the cognate oRi in Parji, a central Dravidian language, Mr. Mahadevan said. Still nearer, Kannada has oTTi, probably from an earlier oRRi with the same meaning.

The word occurring in the pottery inscription found at Quseir-al-Qadim can also be read as o(R)Ri as Tamil Brahmi inscriptions generally avoid doubling of consonants.

Earlier excavations at this site about 30 years ago yielded two pottery inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi belonging to the first century A.D.

Another Tamil Brahmi pottery inscription of the same period was found in 1995 at Berenike, also a Roman settlement, on the Red Sea coast of Egypt, Mr. Mahadevan said.

These discoveries provided material evidence to corroborate the literary accounts by classical Western authors and the Tamil Sangam poets about the flourishing trade between the Tamil country and Rome (via the Red Sea ports) in the early centuries A.D.

[MaduraiSelvam]

From the above postings it seems that what Epigraphist have told are true, that Tamil is older that 3000 years! and Why then hell the Indian Government had disclosed that Tamil has only 1500 old heritage! Eventhough it has more than 3000 years of proven record! It sounds only as politics in order to make Kanadigas and Telugu speakers to fight for the same! Typical pro-Sanskrit moves by non-dravidian rich central departments.

http://www.ciil-classicaltamil.org/tlpbprofile.html

[lostashmish]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

From the above postings it seems that what Epigraphist have told are true, that Tamil is older that 3000 years! and Why then hell the Indian Government had disclosed that Tamil has only 1500 old heritage! Eventhough it has more than 3000 years of proven record! It sounds only as politics in order to make Kanadigas and Telugu speakers to fight for the same! Typical pro-Sanskrit moves by non-dravidian rich central departments.

http://www.ciil-classicaltamil.org/tlpbprofile.html

Please don’t see things with the perspective that first Britishers then communists and lastly self-hating Indians have put on us. It’s not pro-Sanskrit , anti-Dravidian phenomenon...

Indian subcontinent has potentially civilized history starting from last ice age, you can not see it in isolation from the north-south standpoint.
The way I look at Indian subcontinent, to understand this underlying composite phenomenon, yet extremely visible heterogeneous amalgamation of mankind is like this ...

Racial :- As such, if you look at India's demographic place, We stand in a point where towards the east of it humans start to develop Mongoloid features and towards north (via middle east) more Caucasian features...Now there has to be a consistent, subtle and continuous change starting from within Indian subcontinent itself. The moment you see "Welcome to Tamilnadu" human race would not change from so called Aryan to so called Dravid. I apologize for my sarcasm but if you observe without biased mindset, within India you can observe subtle changes, despite so much of inorganic tribal movement within India and fro outside to India. I just do not believe in anything called "Dravidian", from racial point of view...

Cultural/Linguistic :- Yes indeed we see distinctive features in cultural phenomenon in India, including linguistic. But here again I would rather attribute it to the very essence of Indian civilizations cultural values. If you look at it, our cultural value system or its foundations encourage diversification rather painting the whole civilization with same brush like western hemisphere tends to do. That is how you see mind-boggling diversity in this subcontinent in terms of cultural and also linguistic forms. With this much of diversification, there is bound to be highly noticeable differences at times, especially when there is an evolution of perhaps 10000+ years...

Now with this I do not try to conclude which came first chicken or egg (Sanskrit / Tamil OR So-called Aryan/Dravid) or perhaps in this civilization's case both chicken and egg were born independently and then organically started to converge over time, all I am saying this civilization is different from the way other civilizations have evolved, here we tend to produce the breeding ground for diversity and rest all other places humans tend to eliminate diversity...We got to understand Indian civilization from its fundamental values as others may not be able to think from the perspective of diversity preservation rather they tend to understand from the point of view of diversity elimination as that’s what the natural thought process in western hemisphere...

Cheers Buddy...If you start to see that all Indian languages belong to me as an Indian and all human languages belong to me as human, then you can get the perspective that I was suggesting..

My unconditional apologies if I have hurt you in anyways

[MaduraiSelvam]

Originally Posted by lostashmish

Please don’t see things with the perspective that first Britishers then communists and lastly self-hating Indians have put on us. It’s not pro-Sanskrit , anti-Dravidian phenomenon...

Indian subcontinent has potentially civilized history starting from last ice age, you can not see it in isolation from the north-south standpoint.
The way I look at Indian subcontinent, to understand this underlying composite phenomenon, yet extremely visible heterogeneous amalgamation of mankind is like this ...

Racial :- As such, if you look at India's demographic place, We stand in a point where towards the east of it humans start to develop Mongoloid features and towards north (via middle east) more Caucasian features...Now there has to be a consistent, subtle and continuous change starting from within Indian subcontinent itself. The moment you see "Welcome to Tamilnadu" human race would not change from so called Aryan to so called Dravid. I apologize for my sarcasm but if you observe without biased mindset, within India you can observe subtle changes, despite so much of inorganic tribal movement within India and fro outside to India. I just do not believe in anything called "Dravidian", from racial point of view...

Cultural/Linguistic :- Yes indeed we see distinctive features in cultural phenomenon in India, including linguistic. But here again I would rather attribute it to the very essence of Indian civilizations cultural values. If you look at it, our cultural value system or its foundations encourage diversification rather painting the whole civilization with same brush like western hemisphere tends to do. That is how you see mind-boggling diversity in this subcontinent in terms of cultural and also linguistic forms. With this much of diversification, there is bound to be highly noticeable differences at times, especially when there is an evolution of perhaps 10000+ years...

Now with this I do not try to conclude which came first chicken or egg (Sanskrit / Tamil OR So-called Aryan/Dravid) or perhaps in this civilization's case both chicken and egg were born independently and then organically started to converge over time, all I am saying this civilization is different from the way other civilizations have evolved, here we tend to produce the breeding ground for diversity and rest all other places humans tend to eliminate diversity...We got to understand Indian civilization from its fundamental values as others may not be able to think from the perspective of diversity preservation rather they tend to understand from the point of view of diversity elimination as that’s what the natural thought process in western hemisphere...

Cheers Buddy...If you start to see that all Indian languages belong to me as an Indian and all human languages belong to me as human, then you can get the perspective that I was suggesting..

My unconditional apologies if I have hurt you in anyways

Its a diplomatic way to say shut up, i guess.
I am not against Sanskrit or any other language sir. Having a pluralistic society in the ligustic front, we need to have logistic stand point and when the rules are bend for the favour of bigger populations opinion, rather than the facts, the democracy is questioned.
I do love the fact of having multilingual society but how many of us Indian, esp. Sanskrit derived language speakers, learn a Dravidian language? It took 60 years after independence for making Tamil as a classical language and that too with completely biased rules, underestimating its real age. This biased rules had paved way to bring other younger cousins of Tamil to compete for the same. Hopefully if Tamils was a dead language, like other classical languages, people would had found it easy to acknowledge it as a classical language.

[Mahratta]

Originally Posted by indiansunite

Via HT delhi June 21 06

What a treasure! Step wells always are

[MaduraiSelvam]

Living rocks

TEXT & PHOTOGRAPHS: BENOY K. BEHL

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/storie...4242506600.htm

Mamallapuram, to the south of Chennai on the Tamil Nadu coast, is a marvellous town of temples carved out of rock.

SHORE TEMPLE, 8TH century. It is one of the finest examples of Indian structural stone temples. The Nandis along the outer wall seem to greet and invite one into the sacred space within.
WHILE the early western Chalukyas ruled in present-day Karnataka, by the end of the 6th century A.D., the Pallava rulers from present-day Andhra Pradesh extended their control southwards over much of Tamil Nadu. They created the first large empire of South India. It is from the time of the rule of the Pallava king Mahendra, from A.D. 600 to A.D. 630, that numerous inscriptions have been found and Pallava history is documented.

DESCENT OF THE Ganga, 7th century. This vast rock in the ancient port town has been transformed into a world teeming with beings: human, animal and divine. This is one of the most marvellous creations in the whole of Indian art.
On the Tamil Nadu coast, is a marvellous town of temples carved out of rock. Mamallapuram, or Mahabalipuram, was one of the greatest sea ports of ancient times. In those times this bustling town would have had a cosmopolitan culture. In its markets, people from South-East Asia would have rubbed shoulders with Romans. Coins found here testify to extensive trade with Rome and other places from at least the 1st century. Colonies of Romans are also known to have been present in this part of Tamil Nadu at that time.
This port town was called Mamalai, or “great hill”. Mahendra’s successor, Narasimhavarman, known as Mamalla (or the “Great Warrior”), expanded the facilities of the port. He changed its name to Mamallapuram, or “city of Mamalla”. Ships sailed constantly from here to Sri Lanka and South-East Asia.

SIVA WITH HIS many "ganas" around him. They represent those persons who have spent a lifetime devoted to him and have been granted the boon of remaining perpetually close to him. An ascetic is seen doing penance.

Here, over perhaps a hundred years, from about A.D. 630 to A.D. 728, marvellous monuments were cut out of outcrops of hard grey granite. Cliff faces were transformed into a teeming world of animals and people. Boulders were carved into fine temples. Rocks were chiselled into the shapes of animals. The magnificent temples of Mamallapuram reflect the fully developed styles of South Indian temples. Obviously, such temples must have been made for a long time before this period. The earlier ones must have been made out of ephemeral materials and have not survived.
Facing the ancient port and not very far from it is one of the marvels of the sculptural art of India. The face of a vast granite rock, almost 100 feet (30.5 metres) by 50 feet (15.25 m), has been transformed into a world of divine and earthly beings. This giant relief is believed to be of the early or middle 7th century.

DIVINE FIGURES AND "kinnaras" populate the upper parts of the tableau. "Kinnaras", or composite creatures, part human and part bird, are perennial images in Indian art, from earliest times. These embody the Indic vision of the oneness of the whole of creation.
The tableau presents the auspicious moment of the descent of the river Ganga to bestow her blessings and her treasure of fertility on the world. Some scholars have also interpreted this scene to be a depiction of the penance of Arjuna, the hero of the epic Mahabharata. A deep cleft in the rock has been artfully used to represent the great river as she descends. In fact, a storage tank was made above it. On ceremonial occasions, water must have been let out to rush down the cleft, giving a sense of reality to the sacred scene.
The teeming world of a forest has been created around the river. About a hundred figures of animals, men, women and divine beings all turn in reverence towards the life-giving river. These are all made approximately life-sized and naturalistic and with great sensitivity. Bhagiratha, the sage, is seen performing penance and imploring Siva to bear the force of the fall of the river from heaven.

DIVINE NAGAS AND Naginis swim up the river as the Ganga descends from the heavens. These beings, which are part human and part serpent, are among the oldest images of Indic art. They represent fertility as well as the protective forces of nature.
Next to him stands Siva, whose gesture indicates that he is granting a boon to the ascetic. Nagas and Naginis, divine serpents who live in the waters, are shown swimming up the river. Below Siva we see a shrine of Vishnu, with an elderly sage and his disciples before it. Beside the river, other ascetics perform puja and penance.
On the opposite bank is a charming depiction of a cat performing penance. He has deluded some mice into believing that he is an ascetic. This could be a story from the Mahabharata in which a sad fate overtakes the trusting mice. It could also be a witty comment being made by the artists on hypocrisy in contemporary practices.

DESCENT OF THE Ganga, another detail. Even as these figures fly through the skies, their expressions inform one about another reality, one that is deep within and not in the activity of the outside world.
The many beings that populate the world created around the river are made with a great sense of liveliness. In these beings there is a sense of freedom and the joy of creation expressed by the artists.
In Indic vision, there is no marked division between the divine and the earthly. All that there is, is sacred. There is a grace that underlies all that there is. Our response to that grace when we see it is considered to be a moment when we get a glimpse of the Truth. Bringing this realisation to us is the purpose of Indian art. All forms and all deities are a means towards the realisation of the inherent unity of the whole of creation.

BHIMA RATHA, MID- to late 7th century. The barrel-shaped roof has been one of the designs in Indian temples from early times. It is often seen in the case of apsidal temple structures.

The world as seen by the early Indic artist has a sense of sublime continuity in all living things, whether animal, vegetable or divine. It is like a fabric with a continuous texture or a great tapestry of interconnected things. If one were to cut or break one part of this tapestry, one would damage the whole. That is the spirit that animates all Indic faiths. Here the hard stone face of the granite cliff is cajoled into elaborating this very profound and contemplative approach to the universe.
The realism and lifelike softness of the elephants in one of the reliefs are remarkable. The details of the baby elephants show the artists’ deep concern for all beings. Another detail, of a deer scratching its nose, shows the artists’ great sensitivity and keen observation of the natural world. Close by is another relief depicting the same subject. However, it is unfinished.

DHARMARAJA RATHA, MID- to late 7th century. This is another unfinished temple of the group of five "rathas". It is a replica of the most popular form of the South Indian temple structure. The superstructure has three storeys, which diminish in size as they ascend.

A little to the left of the great “Descent of the Ganga”, a Krishna Govardhan scene is carved out of a boulder. Krishna holds up the Govardhan mountain to protect a village from the fury of a storm. It is a charming scene. With peace restored and the storm forgotten, a cowherd plays the flute and another milks a cow. This is one of the finest depictions in Indian art of rustic life. In Pallava times, when this relief was made, there was no mandapa in front of it. Therefore, it would have been possible to see clearly the whole mountain above Krishna as he lifted it. In later times, with the coming of more formalised norms, a mandapa was made in front of the scene to accord due status to the deity. The effectiveness of the theme was then largely lost.
The soft rendering and slender forms of the Pallava idiom can again be seen in the Varaha mandapa of around the middle of the 7th century. Here the development of Pallava iconography and architectural styles can also be seen. The seated lions made on the bases of pillars are characteristic.

VARAHA CAVE, MID-7TH century. To fight the evil of ignorance, Vishnu is envisaged as descending upon the earth in the powerful Varaha "avatara", that is, in the form of a boar. Varaha is believed to have saved the Earth goddess, Bhu Devi, from drowning. This myth represents the great power within us that can save us from the ocean of ignorance.
There are four major sculptural panels in the cave. Vishnu is shown in the Varaha avatara saving the Earth goddess, Bhu Devi, from being submerged in the ocean. All Indian myths operate at many levels, and saving Bhu Devi also signifies the saving of mankind from the ocean of ignorance. Vishnu is also presented in the form of Trivikrama, the conqueror of the three worlds. The rear wall of the cave has Gajalakshmi on it. Lakshmi, who represents prosperity, is shown here being lustrated by elephants. Also on the rear wall is a relief of Durga, who represents victory over ignorance.
In Pallava art, the figures are slender and delicately made. The scale is naturalistic. A depth is given to the relief by figures that turn inwards and others that are seen from the back. Such arrangements of figures were also seen in the paintings of Ajanta of the 5th century and in the art of the Krishna Valley in Andhra Pradesh.
One of the most magnificent depictions in Mamallapuram is that of Mahishasuramardini made in a 7th-century cave. It is entirely different from earlier representations of this subject. Durga battles the demon buffalo, or Mahisha, who represents the evil of ignorance. It is a most animated scene, and unlike before, the scale is naturalistic. Here, the demon has a human body and the head of a buffalo. The natural poses of the figures, advancing from one side and pulling back upon the other, enhance the drama and realism of the subject. The self-assured ganas of Durga’s army of Righteousness are unforgettable.

KRISHNA MANDAPA, 7TH century. This is an endearing image of a cow being milked while she lovingly licks her calf. Such depictions bring the village scene made in this cave to life.

The Adivaraha cave is notable for having portraits of King Narasimhavarman with his queens. There is also a representation of his son with his wives. After the period of the Kushanas, who hailed from southern China and had portraits of themselves made in royal shrines in the 1st century, these are the earliest surviving portraits of Indian kings.
In early India, the purpose of art was always to take one’s thoughts away from the passing reality of the world to that which was eternal. Therefore, art did not traditionally depict ephemeral personalities. From here onwards, a shift takes place and the emphasis begins to come upon the personality of monarchs.
There are nine monolithic free-standing temples cut out of boulders. Five of them are in one group. These are the earliest such edifices in India to be carved out of rock, both on the outside and the inside. They are called rathas, or temple chariots. This is a misnomer as they are meant to be temples. They are a marvellous record in stone of the many forms of temple architecture in South India at that time.

ELDERLY MAN AND child, Krishna Mandapa. Amid all the grandeur of divine themes, the pulsating details of life are not forgotten by the artist. This delightful detail appears on one side of a Krishna Govardhan scene.

The monoliths are named after the five Pandava brothers of the Mahabharata and their common wife Draupadi. They form a coherent group and were probably made in the middle of the 7th century. The smallest temple is called the Draupadi Ratha. It has a curved roof, which is believed to be modelled after the thatched roofs of that period. The shrine is dedicated to Durga. The lion on which she rides is outside the temple.
Arjuna’s ratha is on the same platform as the Draupadi Ratha. This is an early example of a developed Dravida, or South Indian, style temple. The two-tiered pyramidical roof is capped by a domelike element called a stuti. In South India, the term shikhara refers to this crowning element, whereas in North India shikhara means the whole temple tower. The half figures on the upper levels convey the impression that they are partly hidden because of the viewer’s perspective from below. Bhima’s ratha is a rare record of a barrel-vaulted type of temple. The long shape is appropriate for the large depiction of the Anantasayana Vishnu, which remains unfinished inside.

ADIVARAHA CAVE. AFTER the 1st century A.D., the period of the Kushana rulers, it is the Pallava period that brings us the first portraits of rulers in India. King Narasimhavarman is depicted here.

The unfinished Dharmaraja Ratha is the largest of the group. Inscriptions with the name of Narasimhavarman I suggest that the temple was begun in his time. It presents the fully developed southern temple style as seen in the Arjuna Ratha. These form the basis of the temples to come in the later Chola, Vijayanagar and Nayaka periods. A portrait here of Narasimhavarman I is remarkable. Unlike the relaxed postures in the portraits of other Pallava kings, in the Adivaraha cave, this one is made just like a deity in a niche and is accorded strict frontal formality. The unfinished structure shows how the sculptors cut the stone from top to bottom, using the uncut rock below as a platform to work on.
The fifth temple of the group takes on an apsidal shape, which was not used very often in Indian temples. This is known as an elephant-back-shaped temple. Interestingly, the sculptors made an elephant adjacent to it, perhaps to illustrate the point.

GAJALAKSHMI, VARAHA CAVE, 7th century. Gajalakshmi has been a theme in Indic art since the Buddhist art of the 2nd century B.C.

One of the glories of Mamallapuram, built right next to the lapping waves of the sea, is a temple with two towers, known as the Shore Temple. The finely worked slender towers are among the most beautiful structures in the Indian subcontinent. The temple was probably made by Narasimhavarman II (Rajasimha) in the early 8th century. He is believed to have established the tradition of building structural stone temples in Tamil Nadu.
Below both the towers of the Shore Temple are shrines with Siva Lingas. The rear walls of both have relief panels showing Siva, Uma and their son Skanda. The group is known as Somaskanda, and it became the favourite icon in Pallava shrines. It also served as a metaphor for the Pallava royal family. A shrine in between the two dedicated to Siva has a depiction of the Anantasayana Vishnu. This was carved in situ out of an existing rock.

MAHISHASURAMARDINI CAVE, 7TH century. Even while great themes were made in rock-cut relief at Mamallapuram, caves were excavated out of the hills, continuing the tradition seen in western India.

Over twelve hundred years of salt-laden winds have taken their toll on the temple, and the profusion of sculptures on it has been considerably eroded. However, what remains shows the highest standards of artistic achievement.
Perhaps, the most memorable aspect of the art of Mamallapuram is the depiction of the many beings that inhabit the world: deer, cows, elephants and others. Man is seen amidst the world of nature as one of its many manifestations. The Indian sculptor manages to communicate the living, breathing quality and emotions of animals with a rare empathy.

SOMASKANDA, SHORE TEMPLE. The favoured representation of Siva in the Pallava temples is of him with his wife, Uma, and son Kumara, or Kartikeya. The image may also symbolise the paternal benevolence of the Pallava ruler.

What gives the art of ancient India a special place is its vision of the world: a vision that sees the same in each of us, men and women, and in animals, plants, trees and even the breeze that moves the leaves. It sees a unity in the whole of creation, which imparts a great harmony and compassion to this vision. For a thousand years, the prolific creation of sculpture was an art sponsored by people.
Inscriptions and royal portraits show that by the 7th and 8th centuries, the Pallava kings began to take a direct interest in sponsoring art.

[lostashmish]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

Its a diplomatic way to say shut up, i guess.
I am not against Sanskrit or any other language sir. Having a pluralistic society in the ligustic front, we need to have logistic stand point and when the rules are bend for the favour of bigger populations opinion, rather than the facts, the democracy is questioned.
I do love the fact of having multilingual society but how many of us Indian, esp. Sanskrit derived language speakers, learn a Dravidian language? It took 60 years after independence for making Tamil as a classical language and that too with completely biased rules, underestimating its real age. This biased rules had paved way to bring other younger cousins of Tamil to compete for the same. Hopefully if Tamils was a dead language, like other classical languages, people would had found it easy to acknowledge it as a classical language.

Hey Buddy, I am so sorry if I have hurt your emotion in anyway. Definitely, India has it baggage of colonial past, our nature of politics, our socio and more importantly economical positioning right now etc etc...All these elements also point to "different languages to be learnt as a necessity". This phenomenon already forces Indians to learn multiple languages anyway. How much more appetite they may have, I doubt. This is the practical constraint of it.

Yes, in the heart of my hearts, I would like to see Indians pick up other Indian languages for simply the sake of demonstrating respect for varied cultures in India; of course socio-economic integration would be a by-product of that. DO I see it happening? No, as I said above because of the constraint that being an Indian we already need to learn 3-4 languages...

Despite this, what I think, we can and should spread awareness of the need of linguistic integration. By picking/popularizing south Indian or North-eastern languages does not mean, we have to become proficient, so a bit of these languages can definitely be picked up to merely demonstrate the mark of unconditional respect to our fellow cultures/languages.

And in fact I took clue from your message and taught my little one to count 1 thru 10 in Tamil and also kunjam-kunjam .. I dont think she can ever go beyond this on any southern language for all practicle reasons but at least she would be always conscious of our southern languages...And who knows, a generation after we may have eliminated the constraints that I talked about in Para 1.