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#21 |
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Maduraitech
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Video link for "The lost temple of India"- a special report about Great Raja Raja Chozhan and his empire.
There are six episodes and links are given below. Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVHQP...eature=related Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfhes...eature=related Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRCF...eature=related Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DqBi...eature=related Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zKCe...eature=related Last edited by MaduraiSelvam; January 10th, 2008 at 10:43 AM. |
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#22 |
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Maduraitech
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self deleted
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#23 |
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resU deretsigeR
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Thanks!
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I don't believe it. Prove it to me and I still won't believe it. - Douglas Adams |
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#24 |
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I just read that ther are now definate links between harrapa & settlemenst east in the jmuna/ganga basin therefor tracing Indians back to those anient times .Thats 7000bc.they're discovering new stuff about this as we speak .V interesting.
and that there is mantras in kerala that resemble pre linguistic patterns of sound, possably meaning that the indian concept of mantra pre dated language.And that language it self sparang out of communities originaly from Africa developing it in india...
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......guess who's coming to dinner..... Last edited by dreadathecontrols; January 11th, 2008 at 02:30 PM. |
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#25 | |
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Maduraitech
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Quote:
. All that you said sounds very biased .
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#26 |
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Biased?Its not biased just cos there aint a reference.
Reference is Micheal Woods 'story of india' book.however he aint supplied refrences as its not anacademic work.Just quoted people hes met in the field, who are involved in the digs.This is stuff that i've come accros in other places too.But this is the most recent & therfore up to date one.
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......guess who's coming to dinner..... Last edited by dreadathecontrols; January 15th, 2008 at 03:18 PM. |
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#27 | |
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Jallikattu has roots in Harappa?
http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/stor...1355961800.htm
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#28 | |
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Nocturnal...!!!!
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Bull chasing, an ancient Tamil tradition
ROCK CUT: A painting of bull chasing on a massive rock surface at Karikkiyur in the Nilgiris. These pictures, according to specialists in rock art, are dateable to 2,000 B.C. to 1,500 B.C. Karikkiyur is the biggest rock art site in south India, with the rock surface teeming with about 500 paintings.
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http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/15/stor...1553700400.htm |
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#29 |
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S'all very interesting.
And , no one seems to know exactly where the dravidian langauges are from. The conjecture is that it may also be from harrapa as no one can read the script from there.but its a massive conjecture
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#30 |
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Cats > Squirrels
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![]() The simplistic assumptions of the past are now being questioned. For example, where scholars once assumed the entire vast Harappan civilization was mono-linguistic and culturally singular, experts now argue they may have spoken multiple language families, and been culturally diverse, just like in later Indian history. That would explian why the Harappan script has been so hard to decipher - it may be that it was used to represent multiple spoken languages, from different families, like Munda, Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman and even Indo-European. Unfortunatly however, vast numbers of people with no understanding of the complexities of history still subscribe to various idealised interpretations of the past, whether that be nationalist, regionalist, or whatever. |
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#31 | |
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Indus Script has been deciphered !!.
Quote:
http://www.indiastar.com/wallia27.htm As usual the western scholars rejected this claim on dubious grounds..... |
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#32 | |||||
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Cats > Squirrels
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Quote:
Anyone who has ever looked at the topic of the Indus Valley Civlization in any detail should know this. So I suggest you read up on the subject further, before forming an opinion. Quote:
How can you then be confident? Do you have a time machine at your disposal? Quote:
There is insufficient evidence to support any claim. Quote:
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2). Please dont display prejudice toward the majority of Indian scholars, who share their opinion, and have also devoted their lives to the presuit of satya by rigorous scientific means. 3). Please dont form hasty judgements on the professional opinions of the above mentioned people when they have studied this subject in great detail, and you clearly have not. For your personal enjoyment, I reccomend the following books: - India A History: John Keay - Understanding Harappa: Shereen Ratnagar - Early India: Romila Thapar |
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#33 |
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thought the harrapan 'sript' is a form of hieroglyphs?And as yet there is no one who has deciphered them.I dont wanna take sides here but I've often found many indian experts with severe points to prove in many varied fields who use not exactly empirical methods(there are many brilliant ones too)
Claims of national or ethnic greatness should always be looked upon with scepticism whatever there source.
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#34 |
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Cats > Squirrels
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![]() Although im definatly no expert in written scripts, ive looked into it out of interest, and it seems that the number of charecters included in the Indus script are too many to represent a syllable-based script, and yet too few to represent a pictographic script (i.e. like hieroglyphs or the Chinese script), so, it really is a mystery. Some people have even suggested that it isnt a script at all, but infact a collection of symbols used to represent trade goods, or guilds, or geographical regions (i.e. like a logo). Thats how little people know about the Indus script, the truth is, the international archeological community may never decode it, and it may not even represent a language for all anyone knows. Unfortunatly, if you try hard enough to match a language to a script, you can almost always find a way, so various interest groups have matched languages like proto-Dravidian and proto-Sanskrit to the script, to claim the Indus civilization for partisan purposes. It seems that every forum you go on has a few people who know next to nothing about the methodology of the archeology or linguistics involved, yet believe in various Hindutva or Dravidian or Dalistani type views on early Indian history. Often people who present the views of the worldwide archeological community are labeled a 'Marxist' or 'psuedo-secular' or 'Hindu nationalist' or 'Brahmin' depending on which partisan viewpoint they are disagreeing with. |
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#35 |
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Indus script represents Sanskrit !!.
I am very confident that Indus script represents Sanskrit. This is how I came to conclusion.
In the first Canto of Bhagavata Purana which was written in sanskrit says the following verse. sa kadācit sarasvatyā upaspṛśya jalaḿ śuciḥ vivikta eka āsīna udite ravi-maṇḍale Translation : Once upon a time he [Vyāsadeva], as the sun rose, took his morning ablution in the waters of the Sarasvatī and sat alone to concentrate. This verse clearly indicates that the sage Vyasa atleast resided close to the banks of Saraswati.This above event occured some roughly 3000 B.C. This was well confirmed by many scholars , through the interpretation of time at which Mahabharata War Occured. River Saraswati was quoted in Rig Veda at Several Places.As we all know Saraswati River dried some where around1900 B.C. There is enough information about this cataclysmic event. Now we all know that Indus river and Sarawati River flow almost parallely and also closely at that time. If that is the case, people at that time had definite links between them. Their language and culture are very influenced by each other. We can atleast agree to that Sanskrit was not dead by that time when Indus civilization was flourishing. ![]() This above sign is the famous Dholavira sign board, which is translated into English as "I was a thousand times victorious over avaricious raiders desirous of my wealth of horses.", which is a warning to the would-be horse thieves. Indus script is written from right to left, unlike the old-brahmi script which was written from left to right,although it was sometimes from right o left. If you do enough research on the City of Dholavira, it has 3 different divisions. Jyestha ( Upper), Madhyama ( Middle), Kanishta ( lower). These words Uttama, Madhyama and Kanishta are sanskrit words. I believe the Sanskrit language is intrinsic part of this city. In Mahabharata, Shanti Parva, Chapter 343 ( CCCLXIII ), Couplet no 73 is directly related to the Indus seals, Couple no 92 refers to Aryan trend of considering Lord Vishnu in the form of Unicorn ( bull with a single horn ). called Eksringah Nandivardhanah in Sanskrit. Sri Veda Vyas, in his classical composition of Vishnu Sahasranaama reveals thousand names of Vishnu. These names are very important for understanding the iconography of Unicorn. One such peculiar icons of Unicorn in three heads is given below: maharsih kapilacaryah krtagyo medinipatih/ tripada- stri- dasa- dhyaksho mahashringah kritant-krit//(Visnu Sahasranama -slokam 57) Here the reference of tripadah and mahashringah are very important. The tripadah refers Varaha with three heads. In Vishnu Dharma ( 63.59), we come across this verse: sattvanam upakaraya pradhanam purusham param | darsayishy-ami lokeshu kapilam rupam asthitah || “For the benefit of all beings I am going to reveal the three forms viz. , pradhana, purusha and paramatma . This tripadah incarnation has been explained in his Varaha form, where he is an animal with three heads ( tri-padah - tavaivasam trika-kudo varaham-rupam-asthitah (Mahabharat / Moksha. 343.63). The mahashringah refers to the horn of an animal. In Srimad Ramayana, we find verse in support of this mahashringah as ekasringo varahastvam (Yuddha. 120.14). Which means animal with one horn. The Shanti Parva of Mahabharat explains Ekashringah as: eka sringah tato bhutva varaho nandi vardhanah/ imam ca udhritva bhumim - ekasringah// ( Mahabharat : Moksha Dharma Parva) Varaha With Three Heads. This is a Indus seal. ![]() In verse 81, again we find reference of Ekashringa: tejo-vrisho dyuti -dharah sarva sastra-bhritam varah | pragraho nigraho vyagro na - eka-sringo gadagrajah || Which literal meaning is that - He Who took incarnation as the one-horned Varaha. This term has been clearly interpreted in the Mahabharat – buddhi-yogah sarathyam anayudha grahana vyajah praptakale tad-grahanam iti bahu-vairi-badhakam asya iti na-eka-sringah Translation : “He is Eka sringah as He (Lord Krishna ) adopted several devices for bringing about the fall of the enemies, like giving sound advice, skillfully driving the chariot, pretending that he would not use a weapon but actually making use of His weapon at the opportune moment, etc”. It is clear from the work of the Natwar Jha that we have the interpretation of all the Indus signs. I have read references to the book and with that book any Indus sign can be easily deciphered . |
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#36 |
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Maduraitech
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Dear Mr. skganji, I am not sure if you are qualified, seen from your writing, to make the above review.
You need to be an Archeologist or Scientist with knowledge in languages, not just one, to predict or make such literary conclusion or in making any comparison. Also Archeological survey of India and worldwide have already predicted only non-Sanskrit connection, not sure which one though. If it would had been Sanskrit pocket, it wouldnt had been a big surprise with the discovery considering its location and there wont be these many head breaking studies going on until now.Last edited by MaduraiSelvam; January 18th, 2008 at 09:36 AM. |
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#37 | |
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Maduraitech
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Quote:
Last edited by MaduraiSelvam; January 18th, 2008 at 09:37 AM. |
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#38 |
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Cats > Squirrels
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![]() He sounds very qualified, and I would certainly defer to his judgement, unless the majority of the archeological community didnt agree of course. Since im not familiar with his work as much as you, I cannot comment on his reputation. I am not sure why you chose to tell me that, afterall, ive not commented on him or his article. Perhaps he is a scholar who has matched proto-Dravidian family languages to the Indus seals? I hear that current work in this area has been systematic, and yielded some results, but ultimatly, cannot be confirmed either way. Last edited by VaastuShastra; January 18th, 2008 at 10:56 AM. |
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#39 |
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why do i get the feeling that people have conclusions & fit theories around them.
if sanscrit represents indus script then presumably the aryans were not invaders from the persian plateau, did not massacre the natives & did not write stories that later became holy books about it? M S im probably not going to get to read subramanians book for a while at least.whats his conclusion?cheers d
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#40 |
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Maduraitech
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TSS new article in the present edition of Frontline!Harappan link T.S. SUBRAMANIAN Discoveries made at Bhirrana in Haryana provide the missing link in the evolution of Harappan civilisation archaeology. ARCHAEOLOGICAL SURVEY OF INDIA ![]() The red potsherd with the engraving resembling the Dancing Girl bronze figurine of Mohenjodaro, found at Bhirrana. THE Archaeological Survey of India’s discoveries at the Harappan sites of Bhirrana and Rakhigarhi, both in Haryana, in the past one decade testify to the importance of these sites in the evolution of the Harappan civilisation. While excavations were carried out in three consecutive seasons – 2003-04, 2004-05 and 2005-06 – at Bhirrana in Fatehabad district, excavations at Rakhigarhi in Hissar district lasted from 1997 to 2000. Both sites are on the banks of the Saraswati river, now dried up. In a rare discovery during the excavations of 2004-05 at Bhirrana, the ASI found a thick red potsherd with an engraving that resembles the Dancing Girl, the famous bronze figurine found at Mohenjodaro in the early 1920s. Bhirrana is a few hundred kilometres from Mohenjodaro, which is now in Pakistan. The potsherd with the engraving was discovered by a team led by L.S. Rao, Superintending Archaeologist, Excavation Branch, ASI, Nagpur. It belongs to the mature Harappan period. L.S. Rao called the discovery “the only one of its kind” because “no parallel to the Dancing Girl, either in bronze or in any other medium, was known” until the potsherd was found. Bhirrana is an “exemplary site” because, for the first time in post-Independence India, Hakra ware belonging to the pre-early Harappan period were found as independent, stratified deposits. L.S. Rao also called it a “paradigmatic site” because “to put it in a nutshell, the importance of the excavation at Bhirrana lies in the fact that we have strong evidence for the first time of an unbroken cultural sequence, starting from the village culture represented by Hakra ware and its evolution gradually into semi-urban and urban cultures till the site was finally abandoned.” Excavations at Bhirrana conclusively show that during the period of Hakra ware culture, people lived in circular pits cut into the soil. There were auxiliary pits for cooking and for industrial activities (such as melting copper) and for religious purposes, including animal sacrifices. “In the present state of knowledge,” L.S. Rao said, “the Hakra ware culture belongs to the fourth millennium B.C., or 6,000 years before the present.” In the early Harappan period, people came out of the pits and built houses made of sun-baked bricks. The whole settlement was within a fortification wall. In the mature Harappan period, the entire settlement was once again reorganised and the city layout reoriented with major and minor lanes, by-lanes and streets, which had house complexes. The streets always cut one another at right angles. The discoveries at Bhirrana include underground dwelling pits; house complexes on streets and lanes; a fortification wall; bichrome pottery; terracotta vases, bowls and cups; arrowheads, fish-hooks and bangles, all made of copper; terracotta toy-carts and animal figurines; and beads made of semi-precious stones such as faience, lapis lazuli, agate and carnelian. One of the arrowheads, of the mature Harappan period, still retains a fibre impression of the wooden haft. Several mature Harappan period seals made of steatite were also found in Bhirrana. The animals represented on the obverse of these seals include unicorns, deer with wavy antlers and a bull with outsized horns. The seals have typical Harappan legends. The reverse side of the seals has a knob with perforations. D.R. Sahni discovered Harappa (which is also in Pakistan now) in Punjab in 1921 and R.D. Banerji discovered Mohenjodaro in Sind a few months later in the same year. Both were archaeologists of the ASI. The existence of these sites was known to scholars for about 85 years before their actual discovery. What came to light after the discoveries was that a highly developed civilisation (the Harappan civilisation, or the Indus civilisation) had flourished on the banks of the rivers Indus and Saraswati, around 3000 B.C. It was Banerji who discovered the “Dancing Girl”. The Harappan culture was a highly developed, urbanised culture. People lived in houses that had several rooms, bathrooms and underground drainage. The discovery of Harappa and Mohenjodaro, and the many other sites that were excavated later, revealed the grandeur of this civilisation, and scholars made consistent attempts to find out what had preceded it. This curiosity drove archaeologists to locate more and more Harappan sites. ![]() BENOY K. BEHL/COLLECTION: NATIONAL MUSEUM, NEW DELHI The Dancing Girl, the iconic bronze figurine of Mohenjodaro. Since the 1920s, about 300 Harappan sites have been excavated in Pakistan and India. The sites excavated in India include Bhirrana, Kunal, Rakhigarhi, Banawali, Bedhawa and Farmana in Haryana, Sanauli in Uttar Pradesh, Dholavira and Lothal in Gujarat, Kalibangan and Baror in Rajasthan, and Daimabad in Maharashtra. At its height, the Harappan civilisation flourished over an area of 2.5 million sq km, from Sutkagendor in the Makran coast of Balochistan to Alamgirhpur in the east in Uttar Pradesh and from Manda in Jammu to Daimabad in Ahmednagar district in Maharashtra. Between 1972 and 1974, M.R. Mughal, former Director-General of Archaeology and Museums, Pakistan, explored Bahawalpur in the Cholistan region of Punjab, situated just across the international border from adjoining Rajasthan. Mughal found a lot of pottery on the surface there. The ware was named after the Hakra river, which flows there. Ultimately, Hakra ware was found stratigraphically during the excavations at Jalilpur, on the banks of the Ravi river near Harappa. It was found lying beneath early Harappan deposits. This was the story on the Pakistani side. On the Indian side, although many excavations were carried out at Kalibangan, Banawali, Rakhigarhi and Kunal, they did not yield any independent horizon of Hakra ware culture in their earliest levels. So there was a missing link in the Harappan civilisation archaeology between Pakistan and India. “For the first time now,” L.S. Rao said, “in post-Independence India, stratigraphically positioned Hakra ware culture deposits have been exposed at Bhirrana. They show a typical early village settlement, wherein dwelling pits were cut into the natural soil.” These pits had a superstructure. Interestingly, no post-holes were found on the floor of the pits. (Posts would have supported the roof of these dwelling pits). ASI ![]() The site of the Harappan excavation at Bhirrana. In their article entitled, “Unearthing Harappan Settlement at Bhirrana (2003-04)”, published in Puratattva (number 34, 2003-2004), L.S. Rao and his colleagues, Nandini B. Sahu, Prabash Sahu, U.A. Shastry and Samir Diwan, say the pits are mostly circular in shape with occasional brick lining. “The bricks used are of irregular shape and as such do not conform to the known ratio of early Harappan brick sizes. The inside walls of the pits were mud-plastered. The average diameter of the pit was 2.30 metres…. This unique tradition of pit dwelling, especially in the early Harappan context of Haryana region, was in practice” at Mitathal, Hissar district, and Kunal, Fatehabad. “The distinguishing ceramic of the period is the bichrome ware where the outlines of the motifs are painted in black and the space within is painted in evanescent white,” the authors say. In the transitional period, there was a phenomenal change in the settlement pattern. “The entire site was occupied and the town appears to have been fortified. People started living over ground in houses, built of mud bricks of pink and buff colour, of size 30 × 20 × 10 cm, 33 × 22 × 11 cm or 36 × 24 × 12 cm, conforming to the ratio of 3:2:1…. Besides, a few rectangular mud brick platforms with circular fire pits and hearths were exposed,” the writers say. The Bhirrana excavation in 2003-04 also yielded two inscribed copper celts, each bearing typical Harappan alphabets of the mature Harappan period. ASI ![]() TERRACOTTA HORNS among the exciting finds. Copper smithy, which began with the Hakra ware culture, advanced in technology over a period of time, and bigger objects such as shells, bangles, fish-hooks and arrowheads made of copper were found. There was a flourishing bead industry, and beads were manufactured out of semi-precious stones such as lapis lazuli, carnelian, agate, faience and steatite. It was during the second season of excavation, in 2004-05, that the sturdy red ware with the incised figure of the Dancing Girl was found. In an article in Man and Environment (Volume XXXII, No.1, 2007), the journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies, Pune, L.S. Rao says, “…the delineation of the lines in the potsherd is so true to stance, including the disposition of the hands, of the bronze that it appears that the craftsman of Bhirrana had first-hand knowledge of the former.” The bronze, 11 centimetres in height, occupied a unique position in the sculptural art of the mature Harappan period. “With its tilted head, flexed legs, right hand resting on the hip, and the left [hand] suspended by its side, the bronze sculpture, although nude, enjoys a modest ornamentation with a necklace, wristlets and armlets.” The engraving on the potsherd was a highly stylised figure whose torso resembled that of an hourglass, or two triangles meeting at their apex. In consonance with the bronze, on the potsherd, “the right hand is akimbo, and the left is suspended by its side. Slight oblique strokes on the right upper arm are suggestive of the presence of armlets….” During the Harappan civilisation, seals were made as a mark of trade and commerce. Those made during the early Harappan period were button seals, but later, they were made out of steatite. An important seal, made out of black steatite, has an engraving of an animal with three heads – those of a bull, a unicorn and a deer. A horned deity standing nearby holds the deer’s neck with his right hand, and his left hand is raised. There is a manger in front of the animal. Interestingly, this seal does not have any Harappan legend. ASI ![]() SEALS, FOUND AT Bhirrana, with animals such as a deer, a three-headed animal, a unicorn, and a bull. These seals have typical Harappan legends. Other exciting finds at Bhirrana include terracotta horns and terracotta wheels with painted spokes. Largest site The Rakhigarhi site, discovered in 1963, is the largest Harappan site found in India. For three seasons, from 1997 to 2000, Amarendra Nath, who recently retired as Director of the ASI, headed the excavations there, with important contributions coming from Alok Tripathy and Arun Malik. Since 1963, several archaeologists have visited the site and carried out exploratory work. “The site has acquired importance,” said Amarendra Nath, “because we have been able to extensively identify the purpose behind early Harappan structures and trace the beginning of the emergence of town planning in early Harappan levels, wherein the structures were well laid-out with evidence of a public drainage system.” The use of burnt bricks could also be traced to the early Harappan level at this site. ASI ![]() PAINTED TERRACOTTA TOY wheels were also discovered at the site. Other sites have yielded potsherds with graffiti marks. But Rakhigarhi is important because “here we have graffiti arranged in a sequence, which suggests the beginning of writing in the early Harappan level”, Amarendra Nath said. ASI ![]() THE EXCAVATION OF 2003-04 yielded inscribed copper celts. The finding of a needle suggested that some kind of a stitched clothing was used. As if to confirm this, a potsherd with a painting was found: Amarendra Nath said, “This is a rare painting in the Harappan context, wherein you get evidence of a person wearing a dhoti and a stitched upper garment.” ASI ![]() THE ARTEFACTS UNEARTHED include pottery and potsherds, an ivory comb, bone points and chert blades. A number of sealings and seals were found. (A seal is an original stone object, which is carved in depth. A sealing is an impression of a seal.) One of them is a cylindrical seal, which indicates contact with contemporary urban centres in Iraq. This seal has an engraving of a crocodile on the one side and Harappan characters on the other. Such types of seals have been found in Iraq. The significance of the Rakhigarhi site also lies in its having 11 burials, with the skeletons aligned north to south. The skeletons were laid in pits with grave goods, copper bangles and shell bangles. Arun Malik found an intact skeleton in a pit. The burial site is located north of the habitational site. http://www.frontlineonnet.com/storie...1504012900.htm |
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