Archaeology Thread

[VaastuShastra]

Originally Posted by dreadathecontrols

why do i get the feeling that people have conclusions & fit theories around them.

Probably because that is the case, at least when it comes to partisan views.

if sanscrit represents indus script then presumably the aryans were not invaders from the persian plateau, did not massacre the natives & did not write stories that later became holy books about it?

From my understanding of history, here is what experts believed happened:

In the Indian subcontinent, there were multiple cultures, each at different stages of development, depending on their local environment. In the Indus Valley, deforestation allowed farming, and later urban civilization, while elsewhere in India, other cultures remained in a neolithic stage of development. Due to environmental change, the Indus Valley Civilization declined, and urban civilization later rose again around the Ganges Valley, as it was deforested, and permenant settlement took place. How much of the Indus Valley Civilization's cultural practices survived into later India is unknown, but judging from world history, it probably became incorporated into later Indian culture to some degree. During the later Indus Valley Civilization, one of the other Indian cultures that existed was the Cemetary H Culture, which existed to the east of the IVC. Scholars believe this may represent the culture which formulated the Rig Veda, since it existed in the geographical area talked about in the Rig Veda. If so, then the culture of these people seems to have been the one which was ascendant when the Ganges Valley urbanised. Some or most of the people living in the Ganges Valley spoke Indo-European language, introduced from outside the Indian subcontinent (there is no evidence that it was introduced by nomadic invasion, and may have been via an exchange of ideas or trade). These people conquered neighbouring tribes who did not follow the same Indo-European customs, and this seems to be what Vedic literature refers to when it talks about Aryan and non-Aryan people. Gradually, the other tribes adopted Vedic practices (and no doubt Vedic practices adopted their customs) and the Indo-European language family, and the rest is probably familiar to you - the rise of the Mahajanapadas. Cultures in the far south and east of the Indian peninsular were the last to adopt Vedic practices, and like with elsewhere in India, retained their own local gods when these were mixed with the new mythology - this is how religious practices always seem to spread, as shown by how Christianity for example, adopted so many pagan European practices. Whether there was any ethnic component to the Aryans is doubtful, because even if the Aryans had decended from migrants, they had by this time long been naturalised, and furthermore, everyone in the world is a migrant if one goes far back enough, so it shouldnt really matter. Whether the Indus script survived the downfall of the Indus Valley Civilization, or was superceded, is unknown. It is currently believed that the Brahmi script, from which all Indic scripts today derive, was a modification of the ancient Phonecian/Aramatic alphabet, that reached India via Persia. However, recent evidence discovered in Tamil Nadu suggests that either this happened earlier than previously believed, or that it may have originated within India, perhaps even Tamil Nadu itself. On the topic of language, it is unknown what the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization spoke - perhaps a mix of different language families.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

Dear Mr. skganji, I am not sure if you are qualified, seen from your writing, to make the above review. You need to be an Archeologist or Scientist with knowledge in languages, not just one, to predict or make such literary conclusion or in making any comparison. Also Archeological survey of India and worldwide have already predicted only non-Sanskrit connection, not sure which one though. If it would had been Sanskrit pocket, it wouldnt had been a big surprise with the discovery considering its location and there wont be these many head breaking studies going on until now.

Maduraiselvam, Truth is very important in any part of the investigation. Even though I am not an Archeologist and scientist, I am doing my research based on the important evidence found in the sanskrit puranas and the artificats discovered at these sites. I care about the truth, if the Archeologists or scientists are fabricating lies in the name of Archeology , I reject them. Haven't we seen the dubious way with which ASI has worked sometimes in the recent history ?. Coming to the Indus script, there are about 400 seals roughly discovered uptil now , and almost all these seals were deciphered by Natwar Jha and Rajaram in his book.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

T.S. Subramanian, the author of the article 'Bull chasing, an ancient Tamil tradition', is a world famous Archeologist and columnist, and is in the field for more than 20 years. He knows more than 10 Indian languages including Sanskrit. I have seen his research presentations during my PhD time in India. You know where you will stand infront of such a humble and famous professional with your ideas!

In my humble opinion I would say that Sanskrit had greater influence than Tamil in ancient India. You seems to have somehow a biased view towards tamil and some prejuidice towars Sanskrit. This may very well influence your understanding of the truth about the interpretation of the Indus seals.

[VaastuShastra]

Originally Posted by skganji

Maduraiselvam, Truth is very important in any part of the investigation. Even though I am not an Archeologist and scientist, I am doing my research based on the important evidence found in the sanskrit puranas and the artificats discovered at these sites. I care about the truth, if the Archeologists or scientists are fabricating lies in the name of Archeology , I reject them. Haven't we seen the dubious way with which ASI has worked sometimes in the recent history ?. Coming to the Indus script, there are about 400 seals roughly discovered uptil now , and almost all these seals were deciphered by Natwar Jha and Rajaram in his book.

And before research, one must be qualified.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by VaastuShastra

And before research, one must be qualified.

Can you let me know what qualification you need to research the truth ?. I believe one must understand the subject matter to make some comments on the subject. I have a masters degree in computer science and I think I am well educated to make my comments on this subject matter.

[VaastuShastra]

I am not researching the truth, im presenting the opinion of the international (mainly Indian) scholary community. You made a very basic error in your first post that made me understand that you do not have much familiarity with the topic, or Indian history in general, beyond what you have read on websites. I suggest that you read an impartial book or two on the subject, like I have. I am not an expert in archeology either, but I have made a point of mentioning this before presenting what I think is the opinion of the majority of scholars. In comparison, you have presented original research as if it is absolute truth. I attribute your lack of sceptical caution to lack of actual familiarity with the topic. Tell me, did you study any scientific subject? I ask this because you should be reading those who apply scepticism and scientific method to their research, not those who make leaps in logic.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by VaastuShastra

Tell me, did you study any scientific subject? I ask this because you should be reading those who apply scepticism and scientific method to their research, not those who make leaps in logic.

I appreciate your clarification. I read lot of ancient material written in Sanskrit. I can read and understand Sanskrit relatively easy compared to others. The problem with some of the western scholars is that they are not interested in giving the credit to Sanskrit for being the language of Indus civilization . I have ready many western scholars who give silly reasons and who scratch the surface and don't deep research to establish the truth. I appreciate the efforts of International community as long as they aren't biased towards western scholars. Unbiased research and truth are very essential in any scientific observation. It looks some western scholars especially from Harvard University have manipulated some Indus seals to reject the claims of Natwar Jha. This is very dissappointing and this is exactly what Max Mueller did to come with his own theory of making Sanskrit an Indo-European language and manipulating certain historal facts about Indian history that suits biblical history .

[VaastuShastra]

You have not looked into the topic hard enough. Your views are the same kind that I had several years ago before I knew as much as I do now about the subject. You may think that you know a lot, like I did back then, but believe me, you have not scratched the surface yet. Your words suggest that you havent actually looked in any detail at the evidence you are denying. Until you do, how can you know whether they are 'silly reasons'? No doubt you believe that international scholarship (including the majority of Indian scholars, so please stop using the term western) is still influeced by fundamentalist and racist colonial era bias, but if you had read recent research you would know that scholarship is more rigorous, and often conducted by Indians who criticise the colonial assumptions themselves. In science, one tries to read work that has been published only within the last few years, in order to be update with theories. I suggest that you read the following works, before commenting further, and you will find your words are more convincing:

- 'India: A History' by John Keay (May 10, 2001)
- 'Understanding Harappa' by Shereen Ratnagar (Oct 1, 2002)
- 'Early India: From the Origins to AD 1300' by Romila Thapar (Feb 1, 2004)

[VaastuShastra]

Note that the first of those books presents the old, now discredited, Aryan Invasion Theory. However, as you will see, the latter two present the most recent findings possible at their time of writing.

[VaastuShastra]

Here is the process of academia:

1). People go to a learning institution to become educated in the practical ways of finding data, such as how to conduct a dig, or look at languages for certain features.

2). These people, now qualified, engage in field research, and based upon their research, and reading of the research of others, they present a theory, in the form of an article within a journal.

3). This theory is tested by the rest of the scholary community, in an unbiased fashion, based on available evidence, and may become accepted.

Now here is how many 'popular' historians, with political or religious bias operate:

1). They form a theory which they like, because it makes their chosen political or religious viewpoint look better.

2). They selectively interpret whatever evidence they can find to fit that theory.

3). They publish it outside academic journals, on websites, or in non-academic books.

The second way of doing things has no standards, evidence is not considered sceptically, anyone can make up fantasy.

So, when Indians who are proud of their civilization want to learn about its fantatic history, they will first go to the internet, or to books that are less academic, to find the theories which make them feel best, rather than the more complicated theories, which are less tidy, but far more realistic. They go on sites that say the Indus Valley Civilization is the same age as Krishna's Dwarka, and that it spoke Sanskrit, or that there is a lost Atlantis off the coast of Tamil Nadu, because these things make Indian history sound better. Indian history is already interesting enough without these artificial exagerations, but people go for these glorified and idealised views of the past, because it is more simple and invigorating.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by VaastuShastra

Here is the process of academia:

1). People go to a learning institution to become educated in the practical ways of finding data, such as how to conduct a dig, or look at languages for certain features.

2). These people, now qualified, engage in field research, and based upon their research, and reading of the research of others, they present a theory, in the form of an article within a journal.

3). This theory is tested by the rest of the scholary community, in an unbiased fashion, based on available evidence, and may become accepted.

Now here is how many 'popular' historians, with political or religious bias operate:

1). They form a theory which they like, because it makes their chosen political or religious viewpoint look better.

2). They selectively interpret whatever evidence they can find to fit that theory.

3). They publish it outside academic journals, on websites, or in non-academic books.

The second way of doing things has no standards.

So, when Indians who are proud of their civilization want to learn about its fantatic history, they will first go to the internet, or to books that are less academic, to find the theories which make them feel best, rather than the more complicated theories, which are less tidy, but far more realistic. They go on sites that say the Indus Valley Civilization is the same thing as Krishna's Dwarka, and that it spoke Sanskrit, or that there is a lost Atlantis off the coast of Tamil Nadu, because these things make Indian history sound better.

I have appreciation for your first 3 points and fully support people who follow these academic standards. Coming to the next set of points, I am not affiliated to any religious/political group while making my comments, nor interested in making Indian history better by fabricating unauthentic and fraudulent claims. Some scholars are brushing aside the vast amount of literary works carried in Sanskrit in ancient times like Vyasa's Mahabharata, puranas, vedas and that of Panini's ashthadhyayi . These literary works can give clues to deciphering Indus script. This is very important in the part of the investigation. Just like while investigating a crime, the forensic team cannot neglect the little clues, similarly while deciphering the script, the script's contempary language and the literary work in that language cannot be neglected.

[VaastuShastra]

Sanskrit literature is not neglected at all, and is infact one of the primary sources of data that scholars use.

[skganji]

This inscription says that the Buddhist Monk MidiKiliyakudu donated this Rock Inscription to the Buddhist monks living near the caves in Guntapally village of West-Godavari District. The Script is Brahmi and the language is Prakrit.These details were disclosed to the news reporters by the ASI directory of A.P, Jitendra Das and the Amaravati Museum supervisor.

The link to this telugu article can be found @

http://www.eenadu.net/archives/archi...=8&reccount=34

It was published on December 7th, 2007 in a major telugu newspaper.

[VaastuShastra]

Nice picture depicting the evolution of the pagoda in Asia:

[Jai]

2,500 years ago, a city bigger than Athens in Orissa

1 Feb 2008, 0028 hrs IST,Minati Singha,TNN

Experts say Sishupalgarh is the ‘most visible standing architectural monument’ discovered in India (TOI Photo)

BHUBANESWAR: From under the ruins of an ancient fort on the outskirts of Bhubaneswar, archaeologists have dug out the remains of a 2,500-year-old city which they believe was bigger than classical Athens.

Eighteen pillars were found among the remnants of the grand city at Sishupalgarh, a ruined fortification first discovered 60 years ago. The findings include debris of household pottery and terracotta ornaments, pointing to an advanced lifestyle led by the people who lived there. The polished potteries even have ownership marks on them.

Monica L Smith, head archaeologist from the University of California, who was part of the 12-member team that conducted the excavation, said the site is the "most visible standing architectural monument" discovered in India so far. "It's a huge city that existed about 2,500 years ago."

"The city had four gateways and could have housed up to 25,000 people. Even classical Athens had only 10,000 people," said R K Mohanty from Deccan College, Pune, who was part of the excavation team which also had members from the Archaeological Survey of India and University of California.

"It was a very important city with well-built walls and a big expanse. The pillars we found were part of a gigantic structure, probably used for public gatherings," added Mohanty. Sishupalgarh was once ruled by the Kalinga kings.

[Mahratta]

Vaastu, nobody likes Nihilists. Just wanted to get that out.

Btw, the news of the city at Sishupalgarh is great news - nice to see Kalinga getting the archaelogical attention it needs. Just look at it this way - Rome and Athens make so much money from tourism, as do other ancient cities. India has dozens of cities as ancient, if not more ancient that are equally great. They just need to be properly excavated which is something that is happening at a good pace!

- India A History: John Keay

A very good read by a distinguished historian. However, upon reading it, I realize that ancient Indian scholars are not respected in any way in comparison to their Hellenic and Mideastern counterparts. If I remember correctly, even Keay was dismissing the claims of many Indian scholars while almost maintaing the reputation of Herodotus despite some very bizarre quotes mentioned in the text by the Hellene.

Some other good reads on Indian history I found:
- Arthur Llewellyn Basham (professor of Oriental Studies at the Australian national University) wrote an interesting (albeit dated) book called The Wonder That Was India
The book only reaches upto the time of the invasion of Sindh before it goes into other areas rather than documented history. In the area of North Indian history before the invasion of Sindh (700s?) this book shows a lot of merit and detail.
The following chapters are also very interesting and include vivid accounts and descriptions of the political process and systems of the Mahajanapadas and empires of India as well as a detailed account of the life of individuals in different varnas in India at different time periods. It also covers religion and cults, metaphysics, science in India, the arts, and language and literature. All in all, it was a very interesting read.
That being said, it's an old book. Theories on the AIT are outdated.

[Jai]

from ifpindia.org and hpi

QUSEIR-AL-QADIM, EGYPT, February 20, 2008: A broken storage jar with inscriptions in an ancient form of Tamil script, dated to the first century BCE., has been excavated in Egypt.

Dr. Roberta Tomber, a pottery specialist at the British Museum, London, identified the fragmentary vessel as a storage jar made in India. Iravatham Mahadevan, a specialist in Tamil epigraphy, has confirmed that the inscription on the jar is in Tamil written in the Tamil Brahmi script of about the first century.

Earlier excavations at this site about 30 years ago yielded two pottery inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi from the same era. Additionally, a pottery inscription was found in 1995 at Berenike, a Roman settlement of the Red Sea coast of Egypt. These discoveries proved material evidence to corroborate the literary accounts by classical Western authors and the Tamil Sangam poets about the flourishing trade between the India and Rome, via the Red Sea ports, in the early centuries CE.

[Jai]

Mundeshwari Temple in Bihar – Is it the oldest functional Hindu Temple in the World?

Ma Mundeshwari Temple in Kaimur District of Bihar was recently in news due to the planned renovation and restoration by Archaeological Survey of India (ASI). Newspaper reports suggested that Mundeshwari Temple was built in 108 A D. Since then rituals and worship have been taking place at the temple without a break. Thus making it the oldest functional temple in the world.


^ Ma Mundeshwari Temple

The use of the term ‘oldest’ is a bit risky when talking about temples associated with Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism). Simply because no one has been able to clearly state how old Sanatana Dharma is. Say this temple is the oldest and immediately another person will be come with something much older.

So the safest option is to say that Ma Mundeshwari Temple in Kaimur District of Bihar is one of the oldest Hindu temples in the world.


^ Ma Mundeshwari

Ma Mundeshwari Temple is situated atop the Kaimur Hill (608ft). The temple is in an octagonal shape. The sanctum sanctorum of the temple has an idol of Devi – Mundeshwari. There is also a ‘Chaturmukha Shivling’ in the sanctum sanctorum. A clear indication that Shiva and Shakti were worshipped here. Also an indication that the temple might be part of the Tantric cult which is quite popular in the Eastern part of India.


^ Idols at Mundeshwari

Apart from Shiva and Shakti, the temple also has idols of other popular gods in the Hindu pantheon including Ganesha, Surya, Vishnu and Mother Goddess. Temple materials and idols can be found scattered near this very rare octagonal shaped temple.

Experts believe that the temple was built during the Shaka Era.

Interestingly, the present caretaker of the temple is Muslim, yet another example of the religious harmony at the grassroots level in India. The temple attracts devotees during festivals like Ramnavami and Shivratri.

[Indymaestro]

Good topics.

But call me when Archaeologists are allowed to study the Taj Mahal complex without hindrance from the government or the so-called "Waqfs" who claim some kind of ludicrous claim to the site - and who have no place whatsoever in the affairs of buildings or sites within India, whether they be Mohammadan or not.

[Unconsciousfocus]

Ancient weapons dug up in India
By Amitabha Bhattasali
BBC News, Calcutta

Archaeologists in the eastern Indian state of West Bengal have discovered small weapons made of stone which are around 15,000-20,000 years old.
The artefacts - dating to the Stone Age - were found during excavations in Murshidabad district, near Bangladesh.
Archaeologists say the find is potentially significant as it suggests man's presence in the area dates back much earlier than previously believed.
Finds such as this on the floodplains of the River Ganges are very rare.
However, there is ample evidence of stone age activity in India's upland regions.
Stone age weapons are not usually found in such an old soil layer:


'Raw materials'
The weapons - which include small axes - were discovered at Ekani-Chandpara village near Sagardighi, which is an ancient site.
This is one of a number of pots found at the site:

Archaeologists say the weapons were found from a soil layer belonging to the mid-Pleistocene period - much below the Holocene layer where present human habitation takes place.
"We have not only discovered the weapons at this site, but raw materials and the scraps were also found," Dr Gautam Sengupta, director of the State Archaeology Department, told the BBC.
"This proves that the weapons were made at this place itself."
Another reason why the find is so significant, archaeologists say, is because Stone Age weapons are not normally found at such an old soil layer in the Gangetic alluvial plains.
However it is well known that raw materials for making weapons are easily found in the plateau region and most Stone Age discoveries are from this area.

Chance
So far, no human fossils or remains other than some charcoal have been found at the site.
Scientists have yet to confirm how old the charcoal is. "The history of civilisation in this region has suddenly gone back by around 20,000 years," one archaeologist said.
After the discovery, two eminent geo-archaeologists - Prof SN Rajguru and Dr Bhaskar Deotare - visited the excavation site and confirmed that the weapons date back to the smaller Stone Age.

The discovery was made by chance, Dr Sengupta said.
"We were digging the site for some archaeological evidence of the Sultanate period. We were expecting some ancient artefacts related to Sultan Hussein Shah," he said - referring to a former ruler from the area.

"We did find those, but our archaeologists kept on digging to unearth some more historical evidence of that period and now we have found these Stone Age weapons," Dr Sengupta said.
After winding up the excavation at Ekani Chandpara in a couple of weeks, archaeologists are planning to launch a search for ancient human habitation in a wider area.

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7315386.stm