Archaeology Thread

[MaduraiSelvam]

Evidence of first Indian settlers found in Tamil Nadu

New Delhi (PTI): A team of Indian scientists have discovered genetic evidence that tribal villagers living in Tamil Nadu were among the first migrants from Africa to settle down in India.
Geneticists led by Prof Ramaswamy Pitchappan of Madurai Kamaraj University have found out that the marker gene in the group of people from a small village Jyothimanickam near Madurai matched those of the first settlers in India. The findings point to the fact that the villagers are among the direct descendants of the first settlers.
Pitchappan who conducted the research in collaboration with Oxford Research University found that DNA of Virumandi Andithevar, a 30-year-old systems administrator from the village, matched M130, the chromosome marker, which gives proof that the first human migration into India took place around 70,000 years ago.
"The M130 is the oldest marker in India and there is no other marker older than that for India. The DNA samples from, Virumandi and others were found to have this marker and we were able to deduce that they were among the first human settlers in India, who obviously spread from Africa," Pitchappan who is Prof Emeritus at the Madurai Kamraj University told PTI.
The findings will be aired on Discovery Television, where historian Michael Wood will narrate the story of the world's most ancient civilization in the six part series 'The Story of India' beginning on April 16.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/h...0804151442.htm

[MaduraiSelvam]

self edited

[Unconsciousfocus]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

Evidence of first Indian settlers found in Tamil Nadu

New Delhi (PTI): A team of Indian scientists have discovered genetic evidence that tribal villagers living in Tamil Nadu were among the first migrants from Africa to settle down in India.....
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/h...0804151442.htm

I wonder how these people looked like and why do they look different from the indigenous inhabitants of Africa?....

[MaduraiSelvam]

Originally Posted by Unconsciousfocus

I wonder how these people looked like and why do they look different from the indigenous inhabitants of Africa?....

haha they wont look different sir. They are normal people like us, but villagers. Well human evolution has many fantastic adaptations during the course of time. They dont look like africans anymore.

[Balas]

Originally Posted by skganji

In my humble opinion I would say that Sanskrit had greater influence than Tamil in ancient India. You seems to have somehow a biased view towards tamil and some prejuidice towars Sanskrit. This may very well influence your understanding of the truth about the interpretation of the Indus seals.

You seem to have a similarly biased opinion that IVC script is Sanskrit, which again is questionable. I think as Vaasthu had said we need to recognize that there are different school of thoughts here. I had recently attendted a workshop by Prof. Asko Parpola, a Norwegian professor, who has dedicated his lifetime in the study of IVC. He came out with interesting counter points to some reasercers conclusion that IVC is not a written language script. He is of the thought that IVC script is mostly proto-Dravidian in nature.

I think overall anyone who has spent even little time on this subject would realize that, the amount of discoveries in terms of potshed that carry these script are very less in nature, and many agree that more digs need to be carried out to enlarge the set of literals from which a possible decipherement of the language is possible.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Balas

You seem to have a similarly biased opinion that IVC script is Sanskrit, which again is questionable. I think as Vaasthu had said we need to recognize that there are different school of thoughts here. I had recently attendted a workshop by Prof. Asko Parpola, a Norwegian professor, who has dedicated his lifetime in the study of IVC. He came out with interesting counter points to some reasercers conclusion that IVC is not a written language script. He is of the thought that IVC script is mostly proto-Dravidian in nature.

I think overall anyone who has spent even little time on this subject would realize that, the amount of discoveries in terms of potshed that carry these script are very less in nature, and many agree that more digs need to be carried out to enlarge the set of literals from which a possible decipherement of the language is possible.

I haven't naively put forward my opinion regarding the Indus valley Script representing Sanskrit. The city of Dholavira sign board has been deciphered with a reasonable meaning in Sanskrit by Natwar Jha and N.S.Raja Ram. Infact they have translated hundreds of Indus Valley seals into Sanskrit meanings with a reasonable meaning. I would recommend the works of Natwar Jha and N.S Raja Ram who have spent a long time on deciphering these signs. Coming to Asko Parpola's work, I haven't studied them and I cannot comment on them. I think many signs of IVC have symbols associated with Vedic society. Especially, the Unicorn, the swastika, Symbol etc which have a very significant importance during the Vedic civilization. I lost faith in some of the research done by western scholars for their ignorance towards India's past.

[Balas]

Originally Posted by skganji

I haven't naively put forward my opinion regarding the Indus valley Script representing Sanskrit. The city of Dholavira sign board has been deciphered with a reasonable meaning in Sanskrit by Natwar Jha and N.S.Raja Ram. Infact they have translated hundreds of Indus Valley seals into Sanskrit meanings with a reasonable meaning. I would recommend the works of Natwar Jha and N.S Raja Ram who have spent a long time on deciphering these signs. Coming to Asko Parpola's work, I haven't studied them and I cannot comment on them. I think many signs of IVC have symbols associated with Vedic society. Especially, the Unicorn, the swastika, Symbol etc which have a very significant importance during the Vedic civilization. I lost faith in some of the research done by western scholars for their ignorance towards India's past.

If you have lost faith in western scholars, then I would recommend works of Iravatham Mahadevan, who has written volumes on the IVC scipts and their association with Tamil words. For instance, the fish like symbol, which he associates with the dual meaning in Tamil of the same word "Meen" referring to both fish and the stars. Similarly bull fighting with that of the bull fighting prevalent in TamilNadu even in these years.

I by no means dispute Raja Ram's works for I am no expert, but I would certainly recommend you to be open to the various thoughts and then comeout with your own line of thinking through questioning and research.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Balas

If you have lost faith in western scholars, then I would recommend works of Iravatham Mahadevan, who has written volumes on the IVC scipts and their association with Tamil words. For instance, the fish like symbol, which he associates with the dual meaning in Tamil of the same word "Meen" referring to both fish and the stars. Similarly bull fighting with that of the bull fighting prevalent in TamilNadu even in these years.

I by no means dispute Raja Ram's works for I am no expert, but I would certainly recommend you to be open to the various thoughts and then comeout with your own line of thinking through questioning and research.

I don't have full faith in his work either. He looks like is trying to please his western counter parts . I have partially read his interpretations on some of the Indus symbols and got dissappointed with his interpretations. I felt that there is no truth in his interpretation. This is my Point of view . I don't disrespect his work , as he is doing some interesting work in archeology . I believe that just like Latin and greek have enjoyed great status in Rome and greek , I feel that Sanskrit also must have enjoyed a similar status in IVC. If that is not the case, why do we have voluminous work in this language by scholars like Aryabhatta, Panini, Kali Dasa, Kautilya, Adi Sankara Charya. All these authors have composed their literary works just after the IVC dissappeared. Also, literary works like Mahabaratha , the Vedas , puranas, itihasas have been well in use in ancient India. Interestingly all this literary work is composed in Sanskrit. I don't understand why Sanskrit is ruled out of IVC by so many scholars. We also know that Sanskrit was extensively in use during Buddha's time even though he preferred Prakrit language to avoid the dominance of the Brahminism.

[Arasu]

Originally Posted by skganji

If that is not the case, why do we have voluminous work in this language by scholars like Aryabhatta, Panini, Kali Dasa, Kautilya, Adi Sankara Charya. All these authors have composed their literary works just after the IVC dissappeared.

IVC declined around 1900 BC where as the above quoted works/authors lived during or after 4th century BC. There is a gap of 1500 years. Your statement that these authors composed their work just after the IVC 's disappearance seems far fetched. As you appear to have done a lot of research on the topic, I am not sure if the above statement is intentional or out of ignorance.

Of all the quoted texts, Rig Veda should be the closest to IVC in the time scale as it is stated to have been formulated around 1500 BC or later. From Rig Vedic texts, it doesn't make appear that vedic people have been leading an urban life.. On the other hand, it is clear that these people had been leading a pastoral life and if any thing they were celebrating destruction of forts i.e urban civilization.

[VaastuShastra]

Originally Posted by Jai

2,500 years ago, a city bigger than Athens in Orissa

Nice find man - by far one of the most important and interesting discoveries ive heard of in years.

Another city to rival Pataliputra, Mathura, Kannauj, Vijaynagara and Delhi.

Ive not been paying attention to Indian archeology recently mainly because of the amount of ignorant partisans that appear every time someone makes a thread.

Serious acacdemic discussion on Indian archeology is hard - every time a topic is made, someone with little or no understanding of history or archeology beyond populist books and websites comes on and posts bullshit.

[VaastuShastra]

Originally Posted by skganji

I lost faith in some of the research done by western scholars for their ignorance towards India's past.

There are western scholars who know far more about India's past than you or me probably ever will.

But because they are white, and present a theory that you do not like, you automatically call them biased.

The world isnt so simple.

In many cases, theories which are dismissed as 'colonial bias' by Indians, are infact far more rigorous and logical than the nationalist alternative.

The only reason that young Indians such as yourself think its 'colonial bias' is because you havent read serious texts, such as Romila Thapar's 'Early India'.

If you saw the methods by which real Indian archeology is conducted, you would have more perspective.

It is not at all shameful to admit that India is made of many distinct cultures with distinct languages and has been successfully invaded many times - because that is how history has happened everywhere - every civilization and state on this planet was made in similar ways.

There is no need to stubbornly claim a single origin and 5000 year continued history. History is interesting enough already - and more realistic.

But alas, Indian nationalists call unbiased scholarship 'Marxist or 'colonial' or 'western' or 'psuedo-secular', because lacking a world perspective on history, they assume that to admit anything less than Indian cultures being an unchanging 5000 year tradition, would place them on a lesser footing vs 'The West' and 'China'.

The reality is, no country on this earth was not made by massive inflow and outflow of migrants, ideas and technologies.

[VaastuShastra]

Originally Posted by Jai

2,500 years ago, a city bigger than Athens in Orissa

More on that:

[Arasu]

Originally Posted by VaastuShastra

There are western scholars who know far more about India's past than you or me probably ever will.

But because they are white, and present a theory that you do not like, you automatically call them biased.

The world isnt so simple.

In many cases, theories which are dismissed as 'colonial bias' by Indians, are infact far more rigorous and logical than the nationalist alternative.

The only reason that young Indians such as yourself think its 'colonial bias' is because you havent read serious texts, such as Romila Thapar's 'Early India'.

If you saw the methods by which real Indian archeology is conducted, you would have more perspective.

It is not at all shameful to admit that India is made of many distinct cultures with distinct languages and has been successfully invaded many times - because that is how history has happened everywhere - every civilization and state on this planet was made in similar ways.

There is no need to stubbornly claim a single origin and 5000 year continued history. History is interesting enough already - and more realistic.

But alas, Indian nationalists call unbiased scholarship 'Marxist or 'colonial' or 'western' or 'psuedo-secular', because lacking a world perspective on history, they assume that to admit anything less than Indian cultures being an unchanging 5000 year tradition, would place them on a lesser footing vs 'The West' and 'China'.

The reality is, no country on this earth was not made by massive inflow and outflow of migrants, ideas and technologies.

Well said Vastu Shastra! For millenia we have been spreading myths and half truths. Only myths and puranas have been passing around for history. Atleast now, let us find and learn the truth and learn to come to terms with it whatever it may be. Only then this nation of more than a billion can make some impact in the world affairs. If not, other countries are going to leave us far behind while we wallow in darkness. The coming generations will have to go abroad to learn their own history.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Arasu

IVC declined around 1900 BC where as the above quoted works/authors lived during or after 4th century BC. There is a gap of 1500 years. Your statement that these authors composed their work just after the IVC 's disappearance seems far fetched. As you appear to have done a lot of research on the topic, I am not sure if the above statement is intentional or out of ignorance.

Of all the quoted texts, Rig Veda should be the closest to IVC in the time scale as it is stated to have been formulated around 1500 BC or later. From Rig Vedic texts, it doesn't make appear that vedic people have been leading an urban life.. On the other hand, it is clear that these people had been leading a pastoral life and if any thing they were celebrating destruction of forts i.e urban civilization.

You are true regarding the authors and the time period they lived. Rig Veda and other Vedic texts mentions many times about the Sarawathi River which ran parallel to the Indus river. I believe that both the societies established on the banks of these two rivers shared similar culture . Since, the inhabitants in the banks of Saraswathi river followed the Vedic culture and it is very abvious that IVC also shared this same culture. It is very clear that all the Vedic texts were written in Sanskrit.I don't think Sanskrit just went into oblivion in just a matter of 1500 years. This is why all the authors who belonged to 4th century B.C still continued their works in Sanskrit.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Arasu

Of all the quoted texts, Rig Veda should be the closest to IVC in the time scale as it is stated to have been formulated around 1500 BC or later. From Rig Vedic texts, it doesn't make appear that vedic people have been leading an urban life.. On the other hand, it is clear that these people had been leading a pastoral life and if any thing they were celebrating destruction of forts i.e urban civilization.

Forgive me if it sounds rude, but I would like to disagree with you on the time period of RigVeda. All the Vedas were existent orally for a long time in the Indian Sub-continent . However they were composed by the Sage Vyasa around 3000 B.C to save them from extinction . I don't accept that RigVeda is formulated just around 1500 B.C.

[VaastuShastra]

Originally Posted by skganji

Forgive me if it sounds rude, but I would like to disagree with you on the time period of RigVeda. All the Vedas were existent orally for a long time in the Indian Sub-continent . However they were composed by the Sage Vyasa around 3000 B.C to save them from extinction . I don't accept that RigVeda is formulated just around 1500 B.C.

You are correct that the Rig Veda has an older oral history.

But this does not mean it is the same as the Indus Valley civilization, as you would see if you read about the period in greater detail.

Current evidence suggests that more than one culture existed in India at this time, and the Vedic religion came from one of the non-IVC cultures.

Like early Chinese city states, the Indus Valley civilization seems to have followed a form of Shamanism or Animism, and only started adopting elements of the Vedic culture toward its downfall.

[Jai]

Originally Posted by MaduraiSelvam

haha they wont look different sir. They are normal people like us, but villagers. Well human evolution has many fantastic adaptations during the course of time. They dont look like africans anymore.

The show they're referring to is the Story of India by Michael Wood, originally airing on the BBC. It's a brilliant series, probably hands down the best documentary ever filmed about Indian history.

The scene with the villagers is seen in the first episode. They look just like normal Indians. They actually interview the person with the ancient marker. He seems pretty awed with having such an amazing lineage. You can watch the same in parts 1-2 of the 1st episode here:

Part1:


Part2:


The rest of the 1st episode:
Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6,

Youtube has all six episodes of the series (divided into 6 parts like above.) Just search "Story of India." If you like it, I recommend buying the DVD. It has some of the most beautiful camerawork of ancient temples and sites in widescreen HD. They were the first to be allowed to film inside many of the sites. Totally worth every penny

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Arasu

Well said Vastu Shastra! For millenia we have been spreading myths and half truths. Only myths and puranas have been passing around for history. Atleast now, let us find and learn the truth and learn to come to terms with it whatever it may be. Only then this nation of more than a billion can make some impact in the world affairs. If not, other countries are going to leave us far behind while we wallow in darkness. The coming generations will have to go abroad to learn their own history.

I would recommend a sincere investigation into our puranas and other vedic texts before you outcaste them as myths.

[VaastuShastra]

So I take it you have read them cover to cover?

[harsh1802]

Originally Posted by VaastuShastra

So I take it you have read them cover to cover?

Longtime....no see?