The benefit of hindsight (heritage debate)

[Evertonian]

What defines a heritage site? Do EH even know?

I ask this question to gauge opinion and start what will hopefully be an interesting debate, forgive me if this question has been asked before.

What got me thinking was a comment my dad always used to make about the Cavern club and the "copy" of it on Matthew Street. The shortsightedness of building a carpark on the original, back in the day.

This got me thinking of my own musical heritage. Or 'Cream @ Nation' as it's commonly known.

The place is falling apart (some might say that was always the apeal, buckets of sweat condensation and rain falling between the gap in the roof of the Courtyard). Are EH gonna step in???

Should EH be putting this fine building on a register? I THINK SO!!! Fot it's importance in attracting tens of students to Liverpool, it's place in clubbing history and it's part in the renaissance of the city. A big blue plauque should be placed above the door with James Barton's name on it in my opinion.

I can't bear the thought of it going the same way the Hacienda went.

[T0M]

An interesting proposition.. Cream has undoubtedly played a massive part in the emergance of the British (and world) club scene and is another Liverpool 'first' which is bound to be filling the history books in another ten years time. The trouble is it's in an awkward limbo postion right now, not new enough to be vibrant and thriving and not quite old enough to be heritageized, and in the mean time it'll probably fall down without anyone (bar a few hardcore club-lubbers) really taking any notice. Then in ten years time the site will be bought up by a keen developer and turned into posh apartments called 'Cream Gardens' with a token bar when the main entrance used to be and a gift shop selling Cream Anthems CD's and keyrings. Mark my words, my crystal balls never fail!

[sjwmoore]

I guess the problem with sites related to music is that they can fall out of favour- I remember when Adam and the Ants were MASSIVE - but I doubt anyone today would be impressed by a blue plaque on Adam Ants house......

like you say, only time can tell, the significance is often not apparent in the present

[the golden vision]

No, definitely not."Erics" was probably more influential than "Cream" and the "Hacienda" but nobody under 30 has probably even heard of it. You can't fossilise everything.

[Bachy Soletanche]

But there should be a blue Plaque where Erics was, no?

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by Stephen Robinson

But there should be a blue Plaque where Erics was, no?

Nah.

[The Longford]

Without getting in to a territorial dispute (i worked for both Factory and Cream) The Hacienda was truly groundbreaking both architecturally and culturally. Darren and James would freely admit that they were inspired by the Hac to start Cream.
The Hacienda rewrote the rules and Cream just followed those rules.

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by The Longford

Without getting in to a territorial dispute (i worked for both Factory and Cream) The Hacienda was truly groundbreaking both architecturally and culturally. Darren and James would freely admit that they were inspired by the Hac to start Cream.
The Hacienda rewrote the rules and Cream just followed those rules.

And i'd say Eric's was the precursor to the Hacienda,Where the MR.ANTHONY.H.WILSON,was a regular.(Eric's that is)

[The Longford]

Erics and the Hac are incomparable.

Erics was a rock club that catered for live bands whilst the Hac was a purpose built disco based on the New York model that catered for essentially black music.

The Hacienda's lineage is The Warehouse and Music Box in Chicago and The Paradise Garage and Studio 54 in New York not Erics.

Also Tony Wilson was not the main creative driving force behind the Hac so his influence on the music policy and look at the Hacienda was just one part of a whole.

[the golden vision]

Originally Posted by The Longford

Erics and the Hac are incomparable.

Erics was a rock club that catered for live bands whilst the Hac was a purpose built disco based on the New York model that catered for essentially black music.

The Hacienda's lineage is The Warehouse and Music Box in Chicago and The Paradise Garage and Studio 54 in New York not Erics.

Also Tony Wilson was not the main creative driving force behind the Hac so his influence on the music policy and look at the Hacienda was just one part of a whole.

True,Longy, they are incompatible,was a disco and the other was club that was a par with the cavern.

[The Longford]

Even Mancs talk about Erics in hushed tones so i'm guessing it was pretty special.
Didnt they do a Rock Family Tree (book definitely, tv show maybe) around Erics?

[Pietari]

Steady now.

No one really knows that they are making history untill it passes them by.

What you do today will be history tomorrow.

Liverpool is a very good place to look for examples.

Viva viva viva LIVERPOOL IMHO

[the golden vision]

Don't know,didn't actually go there no,the point was, i don't think Cream,Erics, don't really know about the Hacienda,should be given heritage status, i don't think so myself.

[The Longford]

Originally Posted by Pietari

No one really knows that they are making history untill it passes them by.

I dont know about that really. I was lucky enough to be part of the Hacienda scene in 88/89 and even at the time (without sounding like a pretentious wanker) there was a sense that we were at the centre of something special. A lot of that was pseudo mystical drug induced nonsense but we knew that we were in a special place at a special time and history has already shown that to be true (even if the London based media have rewritten the story of acid house and almost completely written out the north from that history).
The cynic will just say it was a bunch of kids, off their heads, listening to other peoples records but i would argue the global cultural landscape has been completely redrawn by what happened at the Hacienda.

[Pietari]

Originally Posted by The Longford

I dont know about that really. I was lucky enough to be part of the Hacienda scene in 88/89 and even at the time (without sounding like a pretentious wanker) there was a sense that we were at the centre of something special. A lot of that was pseudo mystical drug induced nonsense but we knew that we were in a special place at a special time and history has already shown that to be true (even if the London based media have rewritten the story of acid house and almost completely written out the north from that history).
The cynic will just say it was a bunch of kids, off their heads, listening to other peoples records but i would argue the global cultural landscape has been completely redrawn by what happened at the Hacienda.

Ting is Longford, history is `so much yesterdays news` and who are todays makers?

Viva Viva Viva new news.....rebirth

[Tony Sebo]

there are loads of major social and cultural happenings that are no longer represented by the buildings that housed them, but are none the less still as vital to our identity (both in Liv and Manc)

I would say that the unique impact of the Beatles gives the cavern a special place in the 'should have saved that' panoply, but if the shed that housed Cream goes, who gives a toss, the memories and cultural history will still register? Also the Cavern was housed in a great warehouse and is the main part of the reason that it should not have been dropped and the cellar filled in. It was demolished to make way for a ventilation shapft for the rail underground that never quite made it off the drawing board!

We took a derive around the CBD last night and the history was still electric, still as powerful and relevant, though most of the buildings in which it took place have long gone... most of them replaced by better (though a few replaced by much worse) A blue plaque on the replacement building is enough to complement the writen records of most important events.


We should be careful when we say 'historic'... it really grates me when the echo says 'the historic'.... what ever, when the reality they just mean slightly old..... and usually shite!

[T0M]

Cream will be historically valuable for different reasons than Erics or the Hacienda, and where it may not have been as pioneering in terms of creating a scene or genre, what it did do was take that scene mainstream like no other club, and 'commericalised' it, repackaging it, whacking a logo on it and distributing it to millions around the world. To the music 'purists' that's nothing to be proud of, but in music history it's incredibly important. Branding and delivery are key elements of musical and cultural evolution.

Look in any design book or cultural commentary on the 90's and you'll find the iconic cream logo. It's iconic for so many reasons, but the main one is simply a combination of very good marketting and mass appeal. Cream took a subculture and gave it main stream appeal and global distribution. And in many ways that's what the Beatles did. They weren't the most original group to ever emerge, but it was their global appeal (as well as some quality writing and performing) which changed history. But at the moment we're still too 'close' to Cream to know the full extent of it's historic significance, because the era isn't quite over yet.

As for the building, it won't survive because the people who make decisions about it's future will do so at least ten years before we really know whether it was worth keeping for historic purposes. Ie. in ten years time it might make a profitable museum of modern club culture, but it can't sit vacant for ten years not making any money. So in ten years they'll build the museum somewhere nearby 'using the same sweat drenched concrete breeze blocks and corregated iron from the original building'

[Evertonian]

Originally Posted by the golden vision

No, definitely not."Erics" was probably more influential than "Cream" and the "Hacienda" but nobody under 30 has probably even heard of it. You can't fossilise everything.

I've heard about Erics and it's impact but the point i'm trying to make about Cream (in actual fact it's more the building i'm concerned with) is that it was more than a club....the layout and structure of the building being a major part of it. In the early to mid 90's no-one gave a fuck about Liverpool and it was considered a city living in the past....basking in the glory of a band that left Liverpool as soon as they humanly could and very, very rarely came back.

The music industry had written us off as obsessed with a 40 year old sound and considered that the city had no musical innovation.

Then Cream came along and by the late 90's surveys were being conducted that showed that over 50% (I forget the actual figure) of ALL university students in Liverpool had come to live in the city and study there as a DIRECT result of Cream.

Liverpool and JMU used to promote their Uni's with Cream logos in their prospectus' and as a major reason to come to Liverpool....in much the same way the historic clubs EFC & LFC have been used to promote the city.

To the point where James Barton cleverly put out flyers and posters saying "It's the reason....I go to uni here".

Now, in my opinion the SINGLE most damaging thing this city has experienced is the brain drain away from Liverpool. In a very considerable way Cream helped to reverse that and many, many of teh intelligent class decided to stay on in Liverpool as a result of being introduced to our wonderful city and people.

With the greatest, greatest of respect....I don't think Erics did that. The Hacienda for Manchester, yes....although that was part of a bigger "Madchester"/"Baggy" scene and a record label as opposed to the club itself being the driving force.

I think the problem is dance music suffers from being seen as temporary and not as culturally important as rock and therefore people wouldn't consider Cream to have been MASSIVLEY important in Liverpool's current renaissance....but it really has been.

[Tony Sebo]

I agree with all of that, cream was immensly important in reinvigorating our culture, identity and impression of the place amongst a new generation of people...but!

Knocking down that horrible post war shed for something spectacular, then sticking a plaque on its wall would surely suffice? In many way trying to perpetuate in some physical way goes against the ethos of this type of movement?

What happened in the transit sheds on Princes Dock was much more important to the city than Cream even, but I hear no arguments for retaining (or rebuilding?) them, instead of putting up decent stuff there.

When something has gone its gone... it is important to mark these things and remember them, but not to preserve everything associated with them... this is the trap of WHS.

[The Longford]

Originally Posted by Tony Sebo

Knocking down that horrible post war shed....

Come on Tony, you'll have to do better than that (although i know t'olden days isnt your thang)!
That shed was actually built during the war and apparently was built to house a holding tank for fuel (what for - i dont know) and the curved roof was the only defense against bombs.
Whether the neighbours knew and thought about thousands of tonnes of highly flammable fuel being stored on their doorstep and the only thing between it and a dirty great bomb was a tin roof is probably lost in history.
I presume the internal tank was removed and the shed around was left and adapted after the war.
History lesson over!