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Old October 16th, 2006, 02:06 PM   #701
coth
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Alargule. This is metro related thread. No need to spam it with tram and commuter rail maps. If others was posting tram maps here as well, then they were wrong as well.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 05:36 PM   #702
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Since Porto has a 'subway' in the strict sense of the word, I think it is totally legitimate for Daniel to post a map of the Porto Metro system here. And if I recall correctly, you were the one who started this thread, and came up with its name...
That notwithstanding, I don't think the application of a strict definition of the term 'metro' to this thread is very fruitful. Chicago, e.g., has some level crossings with road traffic, but nobody in their right minds would disqualify it for a metro system for that reason alone. And even worse: Tokyo's subway shares many of its tracks with local railway lines, whereas the strict definition of a metro system would not permit such railway sharing. Does that disqualify Tokyo as well?
As long as people aren't posting every silly tram map of every silly city in this world, or come up with maps of local commuter lines or (even worse) bus maps, it's all fine with me. You can broaden the definition of the term 'metro' and the amount to which that can be done is very subjective. So let's just stop this non-sense discussion we already had many times before and allow Daniel to have a go at it.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 09:41 PM   #703
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Alargule
Subway here does not mean strict meaning. Subway here is an american sysnonim for the word Metro. It is an american term for metro systems.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 04:09 AM   #704
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light metro defenition is:

transport that fuctions as a metro in city center (this means, underground lines and stations, FULL speed), and that functions in a light rail in suburbs. by the way: in porto metro system, even in the suburbs, there are a lot of lines where the metro goes at full speed (100kmph)..

Alargule: thanx for the support i dont know why.. but coth only start this thing about beeing a metro or not, with porto. there are other places with "metro do porto" style.. and there are maps here of these systems..
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Old October 17th, 2006, 04:32 AM   #705
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Daniel_Portugal, please do noy mix up terms light metro and light rail. Those are two completelly different term. In your way it is NOT a metro, but a light rail system that have few u/g station. It is also use tram cars. I. e. rapid tram system.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 11:34 AM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
Alargule
Subway here does not mean strict meaning. Subway here is an american sysnonim for the word Metro. It is an american term for metro systems.
Wrong. Most American systems refer to their system as either 'rapid transit' or 'metro':

LA calls all of its lines 'metro X line', with a color the specific line has at the place of the X;

San Francisco has 'BART', which stands for 'Bay Area Rapid Transit';

Miami calls its system 'Metrorail';

Atlanta has 'Atlanta Rapid Transit';

Washington DC simply calls its system 'Metro';

Saint Louis has its 'Metrolink';

the three companies that ran the NY system until 1940 were called 'Interborough Rapid Transit', 'Brooklyn Manhattan Transit' and 'Independent City Owned Rapid Transit Railroad (the Independent)'.

The term 'subway' refers mainly to the fact that the line is underground. But even that isn't always correct, since many lines (e.g. in NY) run aboveground, in which case a line is called 'elevated' or 'el'.
Of course, the term 'subway' has through the years become a synonym for a metro(like) system, regardless of the fact whether it runs underground, at grade or above ground. The same has happened to the German term 'U-bahn', which in most cities refers to an underground tram system (e.g. Cologne, Bonn, Hannover, Düsseldorf or Dortmund), by the way.
And if you're not applying the term 'subway' in its strict sense, then why not do the same for the term 'metro'? You seem strangely biased here...
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Old October 17th, 2006, 02:41 PM   #707
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I do apply subway term in strict sens. I do not apply subway word in strict sense. We talking about terms - subway, metro, tube.

Subway is classic american. Used on old systems.

Moscow is also using rapid transit systems term for whole urban heavy/midlight rail networks - metro and monorail together are called RTS.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM   #708
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Indeed we're talking about terms, but they can't be fenced off neatly from each other either. There are many hybrid systems where more than one term can be applied. Porto is a good example: it has the characteristics of a subway (since it is one) in the city centre, and has the characteristics of a tram system in the surrounding area:



As you can see on this map, Porto now has 14 underground/subway stations, whereas the rest are tram/light rail stops. I wouldn't call that a 'few', especially not on the yellow line, where the majority of all stations is underground.

A comparable system is that of Hannover, with underground segments in the city center and at-grade crossings in the rest of the city:



The network is significantly larger than that of Porto, though, with 19 underground stations and an overall of 200 stops...so it would be neat if Daniel were to admit that if he wants to get Porto listed as a 'metro'-network, he automatically admits cities like Hannover or Dortmund to take place in that list as well.

But as far as the discussion goes between me and you, coth: just as words aren't used in their strict sense, terms can't be applied in their strict sense to many systems, either.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM   #709
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Alargule,
I'm sure coth meant that the term subway is an American invention, and is the equivalent of what is often called metro in other parts of the world. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't systems in the US that are called "Metro".
Chicago's system isn't a true metro system by definition - but it's still heavy rail compated to Porto's system which is trams (ie. "not even close").

I have no problems with Daniel_Portugal posting maps of Porto's tram-system in this thread - but to call it a metro system (despite it's official name, which is a brilliant idea for attracting passengers, in my opinion) is plain wrong. The only problem by giving a tram-system 'metro' as official name, is that people actually believe it is a real metro, as in this case with many of the Porto forumers.

Nobody has called Hannover's excellelent light rail system a 'metro', right?
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Old October 17th, 2006, 03:01 PM   #710
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I never defended the use of the term 'metro' in its colloquial meaning for Porto's system. Even more: I've had some arguments with Daniel about that definition as well. Porto's system is a hybrid: it has metro-like infrastructure in the centre, light-rail like trains and tram-like alignments in some suburbs.
So, to call the application of the word/term 'metro' for Porto's system 'plain wrong' is not something I agree to for 100%, but only for as far as the system has characteristics of other systems (e.g. tram and light rail) as well. Therefore, I don't think Porto should be denied a place in this thread, the exact reason why this discussion was started in the first place.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 03:04 PM   #711
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Furthermore: a system isn't only defined by the material it uses. Sure, Porto uses tram/light-rail rather than heavy metro, but you can't really call the VAL-trains serving cities like Rennes or Turin 'heavy' either (the name itself refers to the material as being 'léger' or 'light'). Just as important is the infrastructure: Porto has two tunnels in the city center.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 03:29 PM   #712
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and so what? there are tones of tram systems which are going under the ground. volgograd and kryvoi rog have both systems that are more close to metro than to tram, but still those are just rapid trams.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 03:43 PM   #713
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Fine. Include their maps here. I don't care, or actually, I do, but then the other way round: I find it very interesting to see what kind of hybrid systems/variations have been built everywhere in the world. That's what would make this thread interesting, and it'd bring to the fore systems people otherwise wouldn't even have heard of.
This shouldn't be a nitpickish, 'metro-only' thread. That's boring: you might as well surf to www.urbanrail.net and pick out all the systems with a red square on the map...

Volgograd has some very nice underground stations, btw:

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Old October 18th, 2006, 03:24 AM   #714
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look at these images.. examples of underground stations, naturally full of people, naturally high tech design:






NOW, and this is the most important in my opinion. please take a look at NOT-underground lines. SEE? this line is NOT-underground, but it is 100% DEDICATED. you know what this means? it means that the TRANSPORT (call what you want) can go at FULL speed, DESPITE the fact of beeing NOT-underground. MOST of the NOT-underground lines are similar to THIS ONE. ONLY in FEW places they aren't 100% dedicated.




Conclusion: what all this means? it means that this TRANSPORT is much more fast and efficient than TRAMS that functions always with cross-transit....

finally: for now Porto Metro have 62km of lines... in a near future (i hope) will have more than 130km (and 138 stations)... beeing ofcourse, a big covarage of urban area.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 10:24 AM   #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Portugal View Post
examples of underground stations, naturally full of people, naturally high tech design
So?

Quote:
it means that this TRANSPORT is much more fast and efficient than TRAMS that functions always with cross-transit....
It is a Tram-network. Nothing else.
Just accept it - no-one has said anything bad about this system, rather the opposite (I think it looks great) - but it's still a tram-system and will never be anything else.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 05:21 AM   #716
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i dont care what you think or not...

... i just seen that coth said that things with a bit of depreciation, like if he's talking about something inferior.

and the fact is: great line coverage and a fast transport is not inferior. the images above show that very well. apart of that, call this system what you want.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 12:56 PM   #717
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Old October 20th, 2006, 12:58 PM   #718
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Now, I'm just curious if coth will make a remark about this map as well...since Mumbai's rail network isn't a metro system in the 'strict sense'...
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Old October 20th, 2006, 01:26 PM   #719
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Useless here as well. That what i say.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 04:43 PM   #720
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i dont know mumbai system, so i dont know if it is correct to be here or not... but porto metro yes.

urgel23: all the area of your map is urbanized? or are the lines at the right of the map, suburban style lines, linking smaller urban aglomerations to the main one?
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