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Old August 19th, 2008, 12:10 AM   #241
rheintram
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I wasn't talking about jams.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 12:40 AM   #242
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Buses are crap unless they have dedicated bus lanes and come on time. If you live in a super organised place then you don't know what a pain in the ass it is when the bus comes an hour late.

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Originally Posted by luv2bebrown View Post
its actually high density that causes traffic.
low density = no traffic.
That's true but high density means it's a lot cheaper to build a good public transport system so while you still have traffic jams you have 80% using public transport instead 5%. Also people don't have to use their cars for really simple things like buying a bottle of milk so unnecessary trips are avoided.
Another thing although this is more a personal issue and not everyone would agree. I'd much prefer to sit in a train in the morning, relax and read the paper rather than be stressed that I'm going to be late for work while stuck in gridlock.
Plus it's a waste of gas the other way.

The big problem with this city is the climate, nobody wants to sweat in the ridiculous heat. In that case for PT to work you need the city to be even denser with stations even closer to people.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 04:02 AM   #243
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It's funny how everyone agrees to this absolute nonsense by luv2bebrown! In contrast to what he states low density means more traffic. Of course if you look at an average village somewhere in the woods and at a city like NYC, you will notice more traffic in the latter, but that's like comparing apples with... say the moon (both are somehow round but that's about it).

Low density = long ways and in contrast high density means = shorter ways (of course there are other factors too). The longer the way and the less centralized (or polycentric) important infrastructure is, the more traffic, the more individual car traffic, the harder it gets to create a decent public transport network.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 07:19 AM   #244
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rheintram has a point. higher densities allow for more efficient public transportation. this is especially important in wealthy cities like dubai, where cars are readily available.

mind you, public transportation must be quick, clean, and reasonably comprehensive.

if i were the guy in charge of planning dubai, i'd try to obtain the ROW, and devote and manage as large a budget as possible for PT. i'd also try to rein in the sprawl as much as possible. nothing damages the effectiveness of PT as much as low density sprawl going in every direction.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 07:29 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
It's funny how everyone agrees to this absolute nonsense by luv2bebrown! In contrast to what he states low density means more traffic. Of course if you look at an average village somewhere in the woods and at a city like NYC, you will notice more traffic in the latter, but that's like comparing apples with... say the moon (both are somehow round but that's about it).

Low density = long ways and in contrast high density means = shorter ways (of course there are other factors too). The longer the way and the less centralized (or polycentric) important infrastructure is, the more traffic, the more individual car traffic, the harder it gets to create a decent public transport network.
Rheintram, I completely agree with you.

The low density, lack of public transportation and polycentric nature of Dubai (and in other cities with similar characteristics (including where I live)) mean that almost everyone has to drive and travel long distances to get anywhere. The large number of people on the streets means that there is a lot of traffic.

The reason Mirdif does not have traffic jams has nothing do with the density. The reason is because the streets (I believe) are wider than in Deira and Bur Dubai, and because it is not the central business district of Dubai.

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Anyway, I don't know what we are discussing here, because every major city has traffic jams and bigger then those Dubai has. Even the European or the few North American cities with fantastic public transportations systems, witness traffic jams of Dubai scale or bigger.
I think the reason why we are discussing the traffic jams in Dubai (even if they are smaller than in other cities around the world) is that there are few alternatives for commuters, Dubai has suffered considerable economic losses due to the traffic, and Dubai is growing so fast that the problem keeps on getting worse.

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The big problem with this city is the climate, nobody wants to sweat in the ridiculous heat. In that case for PT to work you need the city to be even denser with stations even closer to people.
Yes, many people do not like the heat. Density would mean several things, including that people to not have to travel long distances and that narrower streets with taller buildings create shade.

People have lived in the Middle East for a long time and have adapted to the hot climate. If people mimic those cities and lifestyles, then possibly the issue of climate can be abated.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 07:34 AM   #246
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since you're in phoenix, you could possibly explain the pitfalls of having a large and quickly expanding city in the otherwise inhospitable desert?

people have argued that dubai, like phoenix or other extremely hot (or cold, as in the case of calgary, etc.) cities are disproportionately car dependent because of the uncomfortable temperatures. yet this doesn't explain why other miserably hot cities (hong kong, singapore, etc.) do not have the same levels of automobile dependence.

people use PT when it makes sense to use it. i hope dubai and all the other rapidly expanding cities don't fall into the autocentrism that has severely compromised the urbanity and sustainability of NA cities.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 01:03 PM   #247
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Have you looked up Singapore and Hong Kong on the map?
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Old August 19th, 2008, 01:10 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
since you're in phoenix, you could possibly explain the pitfalls of having a large and quickly expanding city in the otherwise inhospitable desert?

people have argued that dubai, like phoenix or other extremely hot (or cold, as in the case of calgary, etc.) cities are disproportionately car dependent because of the uncomfortable temperatures. yet this doesn't explain why other miserably hot cities (hong kong, singapore, etc.) do not have the same levels of automobile dependence.

people use PT when it makes sense to use it. i hope dubai and all the other rapidly expanding cities don't fall into the autocentrism that has severely compromised the urbanity and sustainability of NA cities.
However those cities don't reach 50 degrees Celsius. Do you know how hot that is?
It is like stepping into a sauna every time you go outside. The wind burns your face. You sweat like a pig within 2 minutes, and so on.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 05:26 PM   #249
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Let me explain you why city is expanding over barren lands and why the illusion of low density distant communities.

The core of Dubai (Deira and Bur Dubai) are very dense already and the presence of the International Airport almost inside the city makes it impossible to go tall in these area and to support the growing population that follows the boom in business, they had to expand out of the existing urban area.

The so called SZR, where the towers are, was developed because it was the closed area to the city but of course it made more sense to build parallel to the highway (well distant from it actually and with separate service roads serving them) then in blocks. All the new residential and commercial areas under development might seam distant but all of them are part of the puzzle that will be the Dubai 2020 vision. Everything is planned for development and urbanizing and a vast network of Metro Lines, Trams, Buses and water transport (through the vast network of canals under development) is conceived and is starting being implemented. Many new residential areas are actually near business area and planned so to reduce and split the amount of the traffic generated.

There are hundreds of kilometers of Metro and likewise of trams under development, there are thousands of buses ordered for entering the service soon. Also dozens of water ferries are ordered as well and more will follow when more water canals are completed.

What seams now as distant communities will become one day just totally different neighborhoods of an urban city but of course with integrated suburban entities like any other city.

Till then I would still drive my car ... end of the story.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 07:20 PM   #250
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^my post wasn't meant as an indictment against dubai. there's a LOT of land available. there are funds for a comprehensive PT system, yet there are many potential pitfalls with an availability of land; namely greedy developers in collusion with inept/corrupt politicos will allow for ever-increasing amounts of land to be developed as cheaply and as profitably as possible. it's what has occurred in other car-oriented places surrounded by flat land. the ensuing drop in density allows the car to take over. think of any north american city's postwar development. even if a comprehensive PT infrastructure could be magically overlaid, people would still use their cars. PT just isn't effective over lowered densities.

at any rate, no one expects dubai to have the small footprint of hong kong or singapore. those cities however, come close to ideal for PT. btw, those two are already pretty much insufferable, not only because of the heat, but because of humidity. i just used them as examples of functioning public transit despite a hostile climate. similarly, the wendell cox type libertarians have argued against PT funding throughout the american sunbelt (from florida to arizona, transitioning from miserably hot and humid, to flat out hot). one of their main points is that commuters want to avoid the elements.
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Old August 19th, 2008, 10:43 PM   #251
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^not that it's immediately pertinent to this discussion, but using 'hot weather' as a justification for automobile dependency is a pet peeve of mine. a comfortable, mediterranean climate is NOT a prerequisite for urbanism.

granted, things like streetside cafes won't work in dubai, and its hot climate will force dubai to have different aesthetics from what many self-righteous architecture hacks associate with urbanism. but people confuse temperate european streetside aesthetics with urbanism. thus you get car-dependent yet aesthetically pleasing 'lifestyle' centers being touted as the answer to contemporary north american sprawl. it's silly, but people buy into it. inhospitable climates may require skywalks and underpasses and a dense, efficient PT system. but if they are implemented (and there is ample evidence to indicate that they will) dubai will escape the problems of the car.

Last edited by particlez; August 19th, 2008 at 10:52 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2008, 04:36 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
similarly, the wendell cox type libertarians have argued against PT funding throughout the american sunbelt (from florida to arizona, transitioning from miserably hot and humid, to flat out hot). one of their main points is that commuters want to avoid the elements.
What, are Americans a bunch of ******* pussies? Unless you have a garage at your home and have the luxury of a spot in a parking garage at work, you will have to deal with the elements when driving. And low density sprawl has lots of vast parking spaces, which requires that people walk from their car to their destination in the elements as well.

It was a conscious choice to make communities sprawly and auto-dependent, a very bad one. SUch a decision was based on circumstances unique in history, lots of cheap fuel and plenty of available land near the city. Both of those conditions no longer are true.
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Old August 21st, 2008, 03:42 PM   #253
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Palm Monorail handover ceremony in Japan

- Nakheel staff travel to Japan for training -
- Handover of monorail vehicles as they commence journey to Dubai -

Dubai, 21 August 2008: Nakheel, a Dubai World company and one of the world’s largest and most innovative real estate developers, marked the official handover of the Palm Monorail vehicles with a ceremony at Hitachi Kasado Works, Tokuyama City, Japan. Final inspections, conducted by leading railway system manufacturer Hitachi Ltd, are now completed, with the monorail trains commencing their journey to Dubai, where they will arrive in October to commence a period of live testing.

The Palm Monorail is the first monorail project to be constructed in the Middle East. Nakheel recently sent members of their Palm Monorail operation and maintenance team to Japan to receive management and technical training from the Osaka monorail. The 5.45km long transport system will run between the Gateway Station at the trunk of Palm Jumeirah and the Atlantis’ Aquaventure Station on the crescent, calling at two intermediate stations on the way at Trump International Hotel & Tower, and the luxury retail centre Palm Mall.
(Nakheel)

[IMG]http://i35.************/2d8rwch.jpg[/IMG]

Image (left to right):
Gaku Suzuki, Vice President and Executive Officer President & CEO of Industrial Systems, Hitachi; Marwan Al Qamzi, Nakheel Managing Director; and Mitsukazu Nakata, Nakheel Project Director, Palm Jumeirah Monorail and Gateway Towers Project.











I think it's way too early to start operating this. Need to wait at least 2 or 3years for more apartments and hotels to be built, and also connect it to the metro or else nobody will use it.
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Old August 22nd, 2008, 02:10 PM   #254
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Malec, the primary reason for that is to send people to the Atlantis Hotel, not to serve the villa residents, which will always rely to their own luxury cars for moving around.
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Old August 22nd, 2008, 09:38 PM   #255
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Pictures from acassim


[IMG]http://i35.************/10r0lmf.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i38.************/34rahia.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i34.************/notqw0.jpg[/IMG]

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Old August 22nd, 2008, 09:50 PM   #256
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thanks for the good update, project looks impressive. When i see the Japanese (quality engineering) Ceo of Hitachi responsible for the trains, it is a good sign which Londoners can only wish for, the London Public transport trains (tube ond over ground) are very unrelible ( constant signal failure), expensive and dirty. people who come to london and think the tube is great must come from a really bad country to loke london tube
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 07:46 PM   #257
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As a Londoner, channel, you are should be aware of the age of the London underground. Take it into consideration when you judge and/or compare it with a modern system such as the one under construction in Dubai. And keep in mind that it will take any newly constructed system centuries to reach the density, length and ridership of Londons under- and overground system.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 10:58 AM   #258
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Quote:
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thanks for the good update, project looks impressive. When i see the Japanese (quality engineering) Ceo of Hitachi responsible for the trains, it is a good sign which Londoners can only wish for, the London Public transport trains (tube ond over ground) are very unrelible ( constant signal failure), expensive and dirty. people who come to london and think the tube is great must come from a really bad country to loke london tube
Really it is silly to compare a metro that has taken over 100 yrs to build with a system that will initially have only two lines by late next year! The Tube for all the imperfections and problems is actually a great metro system and many cities in the world do not come close in scope of coverage and uniqueness.

There is also that thing called hmmm how should I say, culture and heritage with the Tube. Dubai for all its glitz and big project hype is a bit sterile on both fronts and I expect the modern, spacious, automatic Dubai Metro to also be a bit the same.

BUT you do have to give credit to Dubai for finally realising they needed mass transit (both metro and trams) and for committing to building it quickly and efficiently.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 01:02 PM   #259
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There is also that thing called hmmm how should I say, culture and heritage with the Tube. Dubai for all its glitz and big project hype is a bit sterile on both fronts and I expect the modern, spacious, automatic Dubai Metro to also be a bit the same.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time ... how far can people go with nonsense talk just to make themself feel better with what they have (or can't have).

It's a f*****g train to send you places for god sake, what "culture and herritage" has to do with it in any way.
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Old August 24th, 2008, 01:12 PM   #260
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The Jabal Ali Station looks Awesome... and the one after the MoE station (going towards Jabal Ali) seems to be nearing completion as well....
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