Tbus

[Metrolink]

electric - that Metrolink advert refers to the total replacement of 40year old track along about 12miles of line between Bury and Victoria - quite impressive batteries you've got there.

Out of interest, if a whole route is closed - say 10miles of it, I presume alternatives would be looked at similarly to Metrolink?

[Metrolink]

oh - and of course the cost of the bus replacement was included in the cost / benifit calculations, you'd know that since you are so up to speed on transport in this country though aren't you?

Oh.....

[majormystery]

The bus contract may be worth £1.5m, but that isnt the cost to the scheme as they will be recouping much of that from the fares paid to travel on the replacement buses whilst the trams cannot run.

[LeedsLad]

From the 'Your Leeds Transport Solution' Thread:

Originally Posted by LeedsLad

http://www.yorkshireposttoday.co.uk/...icleID=1858781
A network of high-quality public transport schemes linking Yorkshire's towns and cities is the key to solving the region's congestion problems, say transport chiefs. Lizzie Murphy reports.
AN early contender for a tram-train system which would use existing rail tracks but could also run through city centre streets would be the Harrogate line that links Leeds, Harrogate and York.
Transport chiefs say the system would be cheaper and more flexible than the current rail network and could link development areas such as the Aire Valley in Leeds, the regenerated five towns area around Wakefield and Leeds-Bradford Airport.
Such a modern system, which is in operation in parts of Germany, could also grow with the area, although it is unlikely to come to fruition until after 2013.
Other schemes include more electric trains, like the 16 currently used on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines, to link the region's key areas and provide long distance connections with London and other centres.
The director general of the West Yorkshire passenger transport organisation Metro, Kieran Preston, said: "With the tram-train network and existing electrified routes this would provide a core high-quality, high-capacity rail-based network.
"We are also preparing additional capacity and higher quality rolling stock on other rail routes across the region."
Electric-powered bus vehicles are also proposed. The trolley buses would take electric power from overhead wires or use a hybrid diesel-electric system which would follow some similar alignments as were planned for the axed Supertram.
Mr Preston added: "This is the next-best option to the Supertram scheme. It has everything the Supertram had apart from rails."
Alongside the Leeds electric bus network, there would be more priority bus lanes and new vehicles. Park and ride schemes would also be revised and improved.
The public transport network would be linked together by a single Smartcard ticket that could be used for all modes of transport for any journey.
A map along the lines of the London Tube map with Leeds at the centre would show the easiest ways of getting from one place to another .
At the same time, roads and motorways would be upgraded to tackle specific bottlenecks, including improvements around Bradford and Airedale as well as better access to Leeds-Bradford Airport.
Mr Preston said: "If we continue with current levels of investment, these current congestion hotspots will grow unchecked until they become congestion black spots far worse than we already experience."
He added: "We are proposing a 21st century transport network that is fit for purpose and will guarantee the sustainable growth and future prosperity of the Leeds city region."
n See Metro's vision in video online>>
lizzie.murphy@ypn.co.uk

The Yorkshire Post has been calling on the Government to offer a fair deal for Yorkshire and improve the region's transport. See our Road to Ruin campaign to sign our petition. Alternatively, have your say with Your Views>>
03 November 2006

[Electric_City]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

electric - that Metrolink advert refers to the total replacement of 40year old track along about 12miles of line between Bury and Victoria - quite impressive batteries you've got there.

Out of interest, if a whole route is closed - say 10miles of it, I presume alternatives would be looked at similarly to Metrolink?

Closing down an entire trolleybus route at the same time for roadworks would be extremely unlikely and, indeed, unnecessary. Instead, it is done a section at a time. As an example, the claimed range on batteries for the Rome trolleybuses is 10km - call it 5km to be on the safe side. Quite a useful distance, I would say. There is therefore no need to anticipate costs for large-scale (diesel)bus replacement schemes with a trolleybus network.

I'm sorry, no matter how much you try, you can't get away from the fact that trolleybuses can overtake and re-route whereas trams can't. This offers much more flexibility when planning any roadworks plus cheaper and quicker installation.

As I have said before, installing trams makes much more sense when there is the opportunity of using extensive pre-existing rail (or other) alignments which have no services underneath. If this is not an option, then you need to be able to guarantee a very high passenger throughput in order to justify the massive costs associated with exposing and moving the services underneath the existing highway. On the other hand, if neither of these scenarios is appropriate, then electric trolleybuses offer a much more cost-effective alternative.

[Electric_City]

Originally Posted by LeedsLad

AN early contender for a tram-train system which would use existing rail tracks but could also run through city centre streets would be the Harrogate line that links Leeds, Harrogate and York.
Transport chiefs say the system would be cheaper and more flexible than the current rail network and could link development areas such as the Aire Valley in Leeds, the regenerated five towns area around Wakefield and Leeds-Bradford Airport.
Such a modern system, which is in operation in parts of Germany, could also grow with the area, although it is unlikely to come to fruition until after 2013.

Introducing tram-trains on certain lines would, as I have argued previously, be a cost-effective way of solving some of the problems of congestion and pollution in parts of Leeds (and, indeed, other nearby towns and cities). This is, of course, provided the WYPTA can surmount all the hurdles associated with the rules and regulations regarding heavy rail vs light rail transport. It is possible that the strengthening of the Leeds City Region concept may help in this respect. One thing is certain: they will need the full cooperation of the HSE and the government to make the process run smoothly.

Originally Posted by LeedsLad

Electric-powered bus vehicles are also proposed. The trolley buses would take electric power from overhead wires or use a hybrid diesel-electric system which would follow some similar alignments as were planned for the axed Supertram

I am rather concerned about this reference to hybrid buses though. I know that these machines are very much in vogue at the moment but I remain to be convinced as to their cost-effectiveness. They are expensive to begin with, plus there are potential hidden costs associated with the replacement of the (extremely)heavy-duty batteries that hybrids need. These are much more expensive than the auxiliary batteries that trolleybuses use and are subject to constant stresses and demands, meaning that they 'wear out' very quickly.

At best, hybrids are the transport equivalent of the low-tar cigarette.

In contrast, trolleybuses are true electric vehicles which produce no pollution on the street. I am therefore encouraged to have confirmation that their introduction is being proposed by the WYPTA, where appropriate.

[Val Verde]

Originally Posted by Electric_City

Introducing tram-trains on certain lines would, as I have argued previously, be a cost-effective way of solving some of the problems of congestion and pollution in parts of Leeds (and, indeed, other nearby towns and cities).

My question about tram-trains if they are ever introduced are would they have the same performance as current trains as for example the Pacer trains which run on the Harrogate line have a top speed of 75mph. If they have a lower top speed surely it would be rather pointless to implement. Also what would be a passenger capacity of a tram train as opposed to a usual train?

Other than the Harrogate Line is there any other potential routes which i guess could include going from Leeds going along part of the Hallam / Pontefract Line to Rothwell and perhaps a cross city line through Bradford and using the former line through Cleckheaton, Heckmondwicke going on street at Dewsbury and then going back onto track towards Wakefield.

[Electric_City]

I'm not an expert on tram-trains but I do know that, for example, the Siemens Avanto has a capacity of around 240 (similar to the Sheffield Supertram) and a top speed of 100kph (about 62mph).

These vehicles are more expensive than an ordinary tram because they have to meet heavy rail requirements. They are more robust and have a dual-voltage system - 25,000 volts for the main line and 750 volts for the on-street system.

I am not sure of other lines. However, it's early days yet - according to the article, they're not expecting them to be installed before 2013.

[Electric_City]

Regarding earlier posts which talk about the reference to 'hybrid' buses in the press releases. I'm now fairly confident that this is just a crude way of describing trolleybuses which also have a back-up diesel engine to enable them to go for greater distances off-wire.

This is in contrast to the kind of hybrid buses which are being trialled in various cities throughout the world. These have a large diesel motor which feeds a heavy-duty battery, which in turn feeds the electric motors that drive the vehicle. This is a permanent arrangement and does not use overhead wires.

Trolleybuses offer much greater energy-efficiency by using mass-produced electricity from the National Grid.

[LS19]

I just want to pick up on Val verde's post of 3/11.

The Harrogate line is full of steep inclines and many intermediate stations. It is very rare that you see Pacers getting up to 75mph between Leeds and Horsforth, which is the core part of the route.

Tram-trains would have a major advantage of much faster acceleration and braking. I am sure that they would also operate at a much greater frequency than every 30 minutes, thus alleviating any capacity issues.

I personally would like to see the Leeds-Bradford Interchange line turned into a light rail system. The trackbed could be slewed at Holbeck to pass over the Harrogate/Shipley lines and onto the old Central viaduct, before dropping down into a new terminus where the station car park is at present.

[Leeds No.1]

Pacers only reach 75mph between Horsforth and Weeton and Weeton and Pannal; after that there is a tight corner and then theres lots of stations through Harrogate/Knaresborough before they can speed up again. I would say the core part of the route is not just to Horsforth but right through to Harrogate or even Knaresborough. In other words; any part that isn't Knaresborough-York, which is single-track, not heavily used...

[Electric_City]

Inside info suggests that the preferred option for the Leeds Tbus-based Supertram replacement will be a model built around the Geneva-style double-articulated trolleybuses, as illustrated on this thread last month. For those new to the thread, these vehicles have a capacity of up to 200 passengers (depending on seating configuration) and are manufactured by Hess/Kiepe.

Here's another shot of one:

[LeedsLad]

Here's a question for Electric... Should the T-Bus route suggested aboce prove popular- how easy is it to 'upgrade' to tram at a later date? It is just a case of putting the tracks in, or do you need to change all the wiring too?

[Electric_City]

Originally Posted by LeedsLad

Here's a question for Electric... Should the T-Bus route suggested aboce prove popular- how easy is it to 'upgrade' to tram at a later date? It is just a case of putting the tracks in, or do you need to change all the wiring too?

It would involve a bit more than that, I'm afraid. You'd have to re-install the wiring (but probably not all of the poles/fittings holding them up) because trams use only one, thickish, wire, whereas tbuses use two, thinner, wires. Trams often need special double wiring at some junctions and stops, too - in order to compensate for the extra current required when pulling away. However, this is not a huge cost.

The main expense comes from the fact that you would have to dig up all of the roads where there are services (sewers, etc.) underneath and move them. Once you have done this and made good, you can then lay the track.

Changing the route for trams in this way is perfectly possible, of course, provided you can justify the additional expense. You would have to be certain that the line would have a very heavy passenger throughput which would need nothing less than very large trams (say, 300 capacity - unknown on British streets as yet). The current upper capacity limit for a trolleybus is 200 - although this may change in time.

In some places (such as Arnhem), they have done the necessary roadworks with the trolleybus line in advance, in case they wish to change the route to run trams in the future. However, if you do this, you are adding a huge initial cost to the installation of the tbus system, which takes away one of its main advantages.

It would be much cheaper to simply increase the frequency of the tbuses in order to cope with demand. This is much easier to do with trolleybuses, since the legendary acceleration and braking capabilities of these vehicles means they can much more readily cope with a tight headway. The only downside to this is that you would need more drivers. Although this is not a huge extra expense, it is still something that must be borne in mind when costing any proposed changes to a system.

[Electric_City]

Some more information coming through now from WYPTA about the proposed Supertram replacement. Apparently, they realise that the Tram-Train option could take time to legalise, so they are going for the Northern route after all. They regard this as being very important.

There is a truncated Southern route, an Eastern route and new ideas for a route into the Aire valley to cope with possible regeneration there.

There are three possible mode options, the preferred one being based on trolleybuses.

I should have more info later on tonight...

[Electric_City]

Ok, here we go...
The three options being put forward by the WYPTA DWG for the Supertram replacement are:

1) 'Preferred Option' £275m (advanced trolleybus)
2) 'Next Best' £225m (diesel-electric bus)
3) 'Lower Cost' £210m (ftr diesel)

Apparently, these don't take into account all the land acquisition costs though.

More to follow...

[Electric_City]

Here's the proposed Northern route:

[Electric_City]

...this is the proposed Southern Route:

[Electric_City]

...and this is the Eastern Route:


I haven't had chance yet to check these against the original Supertram plans but the most obvious differences are with the Southern Route, as you can see.

[Electric_City]

There are also some ideas for the Aire Valley corridor, one of which is this: