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Old August 8th, 2006, 06:30 PM   #1
Similos
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Belgrade Metro : Battle For Heavy Rail heats up!!!

Thank God, there are still a few smart people left in the City of Belgrade - against all beliefs, they did not all emigrate - and right now they are fighting against the city's planned construction "light rail" transit, which is supposed to officially begin in 2008, after decades of delay.

They argue that Belgrade today is one of Europe's largest cities and it deserves a real, "heavy", metro no matter what the price is. A billion euros? Fine! Build it!

Newest article from B92.net/Ekonomist website - long but worth a read

Quote:


Beogradski metro: Na početnoj stanici
8. avgust 2006. | Biljana Korica Vukajlović, Ekonomist magazin
Ako je neko u aprilu prošle godine, kada je javnosti prikazan promotivni film i predstavljena prethodna studija opravdanosti beogradskog lakog metroa, laički pomislio da će kroz nešto više od godinu dana morati da zaobilazi prve građevinske radove na trasi predviđenoj za ovaj šinski sistem, prevario se, naravno.

Verovatno je tada malo ko, međutim, mogao da pretpostavi da će u leto 2006. godine biti u prilici da sluša raspravu o tome da li je prestonici potrebniji “laki” ili klasičan metro, jer činilo se da je ta dilema apsolvirana tri godine ranije kada je usvojen Generalni urbanističi plan Beograda 2021. godine.



U ovom važnom dokumentu, naime, kao jedan od prioriteta razvoja beogradske saobraćajne infrastrukture predviđen je laki šinski sistem (LŠS). Protivnici lakog metroa, među kojima je i sam predsednik Skupštine grada, nedavno su reaktivirali kritike na račun ovog sistema, uz generalnu tvrdnju da je LŠS “bacanje para” jer neće u potpunosti rešiti saobraćajne gužve u centru niti dovoljno skratiti vreme putovanja gradom.

“Potenciranje klasičnog metroa je legitimno nastojanje jednog kruga ljudi da utiču na projekat i njegov konačan izgled sve dok je on na papiru, ali Beograd se odlučio usvajanjem GUP-a i njegovim izmenama prošle godine. Svaka nova ideja morala bi da prođe istu proceduru”, ocenio je Vladimir Depolo, vođa projekta lakog metroa u Direkciji za građevinsko zemljište i izgradnju Beograda, upozorivši da bi to značilo da se sve aktivnosti odlažu najmanje dve godine, nakon čega bismo opet stigli – na početak.

Naime, dokumentacija koja je odavno rađena za klasičan metro verovatno više nije validna, jer su se i u tim sistemima u međuvremenu desile mnoge promene, tako da bi je trebalo obnoviti, smatra Depolo. Ne treba, pri tome, zaboraviti ni činjenicu da je grad u projekat lakog šinskog sistema već uložio preko milion evra, od čega je najveći deo utrošen za izradu prethodne studije opravdanosti, poverenu španskoj firmi Ineko.

“Nevidljivi” radovi


Trasa buduceg lakog metroa

Čelnici grada obećavaju da će gradnja lakog metroa početi 2008. godine, a da će prva linija od Ustaničke ulice do Tvorničke u Zemunu krenuti 2012. godine. Da bi se bilo koji projekat prostorno aktivirao, mora, međutim, da ga sprati urbanistička i razna druga dokumentacija, čija izrada običnim posmatračima uglavnom ostaje nevidljiva.

“Idemo tempom koji smo zacrtali. Urbanistički zavod trenutno radi program za izradu regulacionog plana. To, istina, traje duže nego što smo očekivali, ali nadamo se da će program najesen biti usvojen. Posle toga krenulo bi se u izradu regulacionog plana za potez od Trga Nikole Pašića do stanice u Tvorničkoj ulici, uključujući i depo”, kaže Depolo.

Regulacioni plan koji se bavi rekonstrukcijom infrastrukture duž Bulevara kralja Aleksandra već je urađen. Budući da je u toku projekat urbane obnove, koji finansira Evropska investiciona banka, a jedan od prioriteta je obnova postojeće tramvajske infrastrukture, u delu Bulevara kralja Aleksandra ta rekonstrukcija biće povezana sa izgradnjom lakog metroa. To znači da bi početak radova na obnovi ovog bulevara, koji je predviđen za sledeću godinu, simbolično mogao da predstavlja i početak izgradnje lakog metroa, jer će tramvajska infrastruktura biti pripremljena za novi sistem na površini.


Statistika 1

Izgradnja prve etape od 14,5 kilometara “teškog” metroa, celom trasom ispod zemlje, koštala bi nešto više od milijardu evra, ali zagovornici ovog rešenja ističu da je to manje od ukupne cene izgradnje “tramvaja sa većom šoferšajbnom”, kako nazivaju laki metro i Unutrašnjeg magistralnog poluprstena. Metro bi imao 18 stanica, mogao bi da preveze preko 25.000 ljudi u jednom satu, uz brzinu 34 kilometra na čas.



“Za pravi početak, međutim, postoji delikatan problem na potezu od ulice Gospodara Vučića do Ustaničke, jer ćemo tu dosta objekata morati da rušimo, ne samo zbog lakog metroa, već i zbog saobraćajne regulacije samog bulevara. Na tom delu ćemo eksproprijaciju raditi sukcesivno kako bismo mogli da je finansijski lakše savladamo, ali niko ne može sasvim pouzdano da proceni potrebno vreme za to. Verovatno ćemo, kao i u slučaju mosta preko Ade Ciganlije, angažovati specijalizovane advokatske kancelarije da nam pomognu u nagodbama”, objašnjava Depolo.

Geozavod radi detaljnu geološku studiju trase koja bi trebalo da obezbedi sve relevantne podatke za izradu projektne dokumentacije podzemne deonice i stanica. Posebno se ispituje moguće ponašanje sadašnjih objekata iz okruženja kada bude izgrađena podzemna infrastruktura, da bi se izbegla tutnjava kakva se danas u pojedinoim zgradama može čuti iz tunela beogradskog žeelzničkog čvora.

Konačno, u toku je i obnovljeni postupak za izbor konsultanta koji bi trebalo da pomogne u vođenju kompletnog posla do izgradnje, odnosno specificiranju budućih zadataka. “Istini za volju, nekoliko meseci je izgubljeno pri izboru konsultanta. Ideja o konsultantu prihvaćena je još u aprilu prošle godine, ali smo krajem prošle godine imali neuspeo tender i morali smo da ga ponovimo”, objasnio je Depolo.

Isplativost


Prethodna studija opravdanosti pokazala je da će prva trasa lakog metroa koštati nešto manje od 400 miliona evra, dok bi izgradnja 14,5 kilometara duge linije klasičnog metroa stajala oko milijardu i 200 miliona evra. Zagovornici klasičnog sistema slažu se je to preteška suma za grad, ali očekuju da će se u finansiranje uključiti Republika Srbija.

U direkciji za izgradnju Beograda ističu da je cena gradnje lakog metro maksimalno smanjena tako što se podzemne stanice i tuneli, najskuplji elementi sistema, neće graditi tamo gde ne treba. Biće izgrađeno šest podzemnih stanica, dok klasičan metro predviđa 14 više. U slučaju klasičnog metroa, više bi trebalo izdvojiti i za depo, dok se će depo za laki metro biti dograđen na postojeći tramvajski.

Most koji će se graditi uz postojeći Brankov most, pak, moći će da podnese maksimalno opterećenje tako da će, ako se ikada ukaže potreba da budući laki šinski sistem preraste u klasičan metro, i tada moći da se koristi.






Statistika 2

Prva linija lakog metroa, duga oko 12,5 kilometara od čega četiri ispod zemlje, koštaće oko 400 miliona evra. Prevoziće oko 15.000 putnika u vršnom satu, brzinom 30 kilometara na čas.


Budući sistem, prema Depolovim rečima, ima visoku ekonomski izvesnost, jer će grad nastojati da ima potreban broj putnika kao što je i dimenzionirano.

“Na projektovani broj putnika utiče i način na koji je organizovana ostala mrežu saobraćaja Ako se potpuno stavi u funkciju novog sistema, dobiće se jedan rezultat, a ako se delimično prilagodi, potpuno drugi. Na zapadu, posebno u Engleskoj, nema nikakvog prilagođavanja, čak se i novi projekti puštaju u eksploataciju sa minimalno ili nimalo izmenjenom postojećom mrežom. Kod nas neće biti tako jer će sistemom upravljati grad, odnosno Direkcija za javni prevoz.

Prema našim proračunima, najveće opterećenje od oko 12.000 putnika u vršnom satu očekuje se na kritičnoj, ali veoma kratkoj deonici od koja počinje kod Pop Lukine ulice i završava kod stanice Hajat. Na svim ostalim sekcijama je ispod tog nivoa. Čak je unutar saveta projekta bilo mišljenja da smo dobili isuviše visoku projekciju i da ona teško može da se ostvari”.


Direkcija, kao vođa celog projekta, očekuje da će se u finasiranje lakog metroa uključiti Evropska investiciona banka. Njena značajna uloga, prema Depolovim rečima, je i da ohrabri grad da uđe u javno-privatno partnerstvo. U tom slučaju bi se i filozofija projektovanja izmenila.

Ako bi se, primera radi, izabrao model kojim bi privatni partner dobio pravo izgradnje i eksploatacije, najracionalnije bi bilo da on uradi glavne projekte i prema njima izvede radove, jer bi time direktno mogao da opredeli troškove eksploatacije.

Ipak, svi mogući scenariji u domenu su strateške i političke odluke Beograda koja će zavisiti najviše od toga koliko je već sada zadužen. Treba pri tome, imati u vidu da je Beograd već sada ušao u ozbiljne investicije u sektoru saobraćaja, počev od mosta preko Ade Ciganlije, do planirane gradnje mostova na donjem špicu Ade Huje i kod Vinče, kao i kapitalni remont Pančevačkog mosta i Gazele…

Beograđanima ostaje da sačekaju početak gradnje. Tada će, valjda, biti izvesnije i koliko će budući metro biti težak.

http://www.b92.net/srbija2020/info.p...yyy=2006&mm=08
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Old August 8th, 2006, 06:39 PM   #2
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A light rail system will almost certainly become a reality over the next few years. A true "heavy rail" system that some people are dreaming about will remain a dream for a couple of decades at least. I suggest some people wake up.
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Old August 8th, 2006, 10:20 PM   #3
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mito,korupcija,prevara

Quote:
Ne treba, pri tome, zaboraviti ni činjenicu da je grad u projekat lakog šinskog sistema već uložio preko milion evra, od čega je najveći deo utrošen za izradu prethodne studije opravdanosti, poverenu španskoj firmi Ineko.
Koja ce najverovatnije i da gradi metro.Zanimljivo!
Quote:
dok bi izgradnja 14,5 kilometara duge linije klasičnog metroa stajala oko milijardu i 200 miliona evra. Zagovornici klasičnog sistema slažu se je to preteška suma za grad, ali očekuju da će se u finansiranje uključiti Republika Srbija.
Sto nije tacno,1 km normalnog metroa kosta 65 miliona evra,a ne 82 po ovoj racunici.Oni izmisljaju razloge zasto ne treba graditi normalan metro.Od toga da nece biti putnike(sto je najidiotskija konstatacija),pa do toga da je to sve skupo(u svim gradovima sveta gde postoji metro ,drzava je UVEK sufinansirala ,a u nekim slicajevima i kompletno platila izgradnju metroa),tramvaj nema tacan red voznje za razliku od metroa koji je nezavistan sistem,samim tim ljudi ce izbegavati tramvaj jer je nepouzdan tj., netacan.Takodje tacnost metroa,promenilo bi cene nekretnina na periferiji i u centru i njihove odnose,sto urbanistickoj mafiji ne odgovara.
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Ako bi se, primera radi, izabrao model kojim bi privatni partner dobio pravo izgradnje i eksploatacije, najracionalnije bi bilo da on uradi glavne projekte i prema njima izvede radove, jer bi time direktno mogao da opredeli troškove eksploatacije.
Tu bi se dobro opet omastili.
Quote:
treba pri tome, imati u vidu da je Beograd već sada ušao u ozbiljne investicije u sektoru saobraćaja, počev od mosta preko Ade Ciganlije, do planirane gradnje mostova na donjem špicu Ade Huje i kod Vinče, kao i kapitalni remont Pančevačkog mosta i Gazele…
Ja ne vidim da se most na Adi poceo graditi
Evo imam jedan predlog za gradsku vladu da dozvole gradjanima da izaberu dal' ce metro ili tramvaj,na isti nacin na koji su birali most preko Ade.Skupoca mosta se opravdavala izborom gradjana.
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Old August 8th, 2006, 10:37 PM   #4
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It's typical for a lot of Serbs to not know much about a subject, yet pretend that they are experts. It's also not uncommon for them to find some sort of non-existent conspiracy in everything.

Anyone have some real reasons why Belgrade should construct a real metro or are they all related to megalomania?
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Old August 9th, 2006, 12:11 AM   #5
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I could tell you a 1000 reasons.
For one, try & name me at least one European city of Belgrade's size that doesn't have a real metro?

These LRT's are fine for low-density, spread out places like Scarborough (5-6 stations, low-capacity trains) ....for Belgrade, we need a real metro, not a mere tram on steroids.

Svi ovi sto propagiraju LRT u gradskoj vladi nemaju nikakve veze sa saobracajem - dok su svi strucni ljudi iz tog polja podrzavaju pravi metro.

Sve u svemu, podseca me na jednog proslog direktora JAT-a, koji u svom zivotu nije seo u avion - nego je cisto postavljen na polozaj zbog stranacke pripadnosti a ne kvalifikacija.
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Old August 9th, 2006, 12:16 AM   #6
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Personally, I'm totally against this whole plan of building the LRT. Just the fact that it doesn't even enter Zemun, shows that it hasn't been planned well from the start.

As far as Im concerned...Belgrade should build either full metro or nothing at all. Belgrade so far has survived rather well with its fleet of buses, trolleys and trams. Until the economy is good enough to support the construction of a metro like in Moscow or Warsaw, we could buy more modern & environmentally-friendly Ikarbus buses, introduce new trams (CroTram or new Skoda's) and add more lines.

Introduction of a new scheme of river taxis would also help

SAY NO TO LRT!!!
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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:05 AM   #7
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Yeah, that's the way to think about it. If Belgrade doesn't get a real metro, we shouldn't bother finding a solution to the present and worsening traffic problems in the city.

It clearly says in the feasability study performed by the Spanish firm that the system will not have more than 14000 users every hour (and only in the most congested section of the line, other sections will have much less) within the next 20 years. Building a metro that would serve 25000 users is a waste of money because it will cost a lot more to construct, take forever to finish, cause the city to lose money once it begins to function, strain the ability of the city to continuously maintain and modernize the system, and is completely unnecessary. The LRT system could be built in a much shorter time period, yet would solve the exact same problem in a much more effective way. And eventually the system can be upgraded to the full metro you're dreaming about.

This analysis was done by Ineco, not by some city officials, which you were hinting at. I'll trust their ideas and opinions more than those of self-proclaimed experts that have been pushing the idea of a heavy rail metro system since the time of Tito and are now attempting to stall any new plan because it will be replacing theirs. Gone are the days where the Communists are going to start a project and then continue delaying its completion for 20 to 30 years. Gone are the days when Milosevic announces projects for a Serbia in the 21st Century and they amount to nothing. Gone are the days when someone like Milosevic opens a half-finished Arena. These people have helped to leave everything in Belgrade only half done because even in those supposed "glorious" times their plans were unachieveable. The new people in power will actually finish something because they're slightly more down-to-earth and know what Serbia can and cannot currently do. Living in reality is a nice thing. They are showing results because they're not living in the clouds.

LRTs are growing in popularity around the world and a lot of cities that are implementing new systems are deciding on this type. Although smaller cities than Belgrade, I doubt that Frankfurt, Porto, Antwerpen, Hannover, Cologne, etc. made any sort of mistake by choosing to build an LRT. I believe Sydney also has an LRT.

It's completely unnecessary for the future lines to go underground in certain parts of New Belgrade as there are wide avenues with a large space in the middle that is intended to accomodate the tracks. Furthermore, traffic will be regulated and tracks will go underground where necessary, thus making the LRT completely independent from automobile traffic. And to satisfy your need for underground sections, most of the line in the Old Town will be underground and the second and third lines will also be mostly underground.

Another thing that makes me disagree with these "experts" is that they claim that with the construction of a full metro, the UMP will no longer be required. Completely wrong. If it's going to have the number of passengers mentioned in the study, the majority of Belgrade residents will still be travelling by car and the problem of traffic congestion will not be solved. Even if the number of passengers turns out to be higher (only slightly in any case), car traffic congestion will still remain. The LRT and UMP must be built together to fully solve the traffic problems in Belgrade. However, since the UMP would cost almost as much as the LRT, if a full metro was built there is no way that the UMP would also be constructed in the forseeable future.

That's why I say NO to a metro, and YES to the combination of LRT and UMP.

BTW try renting a car and driving through Belgrade and you'll see that buses are the major cause of traffic congestion. Therefore, introducing new buses instead of an LRT would only make the problem worse. Trams would do the same thing unless they had independent tracks on all their lines.

Last edited by PyRoMaNiAc; August 9th, 2006 at 01:16 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:24 AM   #8
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Skorašnja istraživanja i merenja u Beogradu daju nešto drugačiju sliku od prognoza koje su rađene u prethodnim decenijama. Rezultati pokazuju da su i dalje najopterećenije deonice javnog prevoza most u Brankovoj ulici i Bulevar Vojvode Mišića. Najveća opterećenja koja se javljaju kreću se u obimu između 8.000 i 9.000 putnika na čas. Istovremeno najoptimističnije prognoze ne predviđaju za narednih 20-ak godina povećanje veće od 50%. U tom smislu se na najopterećenijim deonicama ne očekuju vrednosti veće od 13-14.000 putnika na čas.

Ova opterećenja nedovoljna su za klasičan metro. Generalni plan Beograda za 2021. godinu konačno je definisao šinski sistem koji će zadovoljiti potrebe grada za narednih par decenija. Činjenica da je rast Beograda znatno usporeniji nego što je ranije planiran, svest o ekonomskim mogućnostima grada kao i spoznaja savremenih tehnoloških rešenja koja postaju dominantna u svetu i koja omogućavaju postepenu nadgradnju postojećih sistema opredelili su stručnjake za potpuno novo rešenje. U pitanju je laki šinski sistem koji je u sebi spojio sve dobre karakteristike klasičnog metroa i savremenog tramvaja.

Sistemi lakog metroa potvrđeni su u svetu. Sa svojih 70-80% potpuno vođene nezavisne trase, kapacitetom od oko 20.000 putnika na sat po smeru koji se prevoze eksploatacionom brzinom od 30 km/čas, ovaj sistem odgovara na potrebe i mnogo većih i naseljenijih gradova u svetu: Mančester, Melburn, Keln, Hanover, Frankfurt imaju samo laki metro. Standardne stanice imaće atraktivnu, lepo uređenu zaštitu od vremenskih nepogoda, automate za kupovinu karata, klupe, informacione stubove, postolje za bicikle i osvetljenje kao i druge komercijalne sadržaje. Pošto će platforma stanice biti u nivou vozila biće olakšan pristup starim osobama kao i osobama sa invaliditetom.

Njegove posebne pogodnosti su postepena adaptacija postojećeg tramvaja uz mogućnost pune integracije postojećeg šinskog sistema i mogućnost nadogradnje do klasičnog metroa ukoliko se za tim ukaže potreba. Svuda u neposrednoj blizini lakog metroa biće podstaknut ekonomski razvoj, a značajno će se uvećati tržišna vrednost stambenog i poslovnog prostora. Generalnim planom predviđeno je da se formiraju tri linije lakog metroa

1. Ustanička ulica - centar grada - Tvornička
2. Banovo brdo - Prokop - Pravni fakutlet
3. Banovo brdo - Ada Ciganlija - Novi Beograd
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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:33 AM   #9
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The Glorious Future of Belgrade Metro* (*-as imagined by Pyro )


























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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:35 AM   #10
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Say YES to LRT

If you listen to people who had to oppurtunuty to build metro 30 years ago you'll wait for another 30, believe me!
No offense KM, but we don't need smart-asses who live in Canada to say what to do in Belgrade. The fact is we're poor, we don't have money nor time to build metro (12 years for the first line, OMG who's ready to wait for so long). The fact is the cities that have more money than Bg have decided for LRT rather than metro. And another thing the size and importance of our city for the world is overrated by the most Serbs, the feasibility study done by Ineco shows the best what I mean.
The most stupid thing among metro supporters is that they're against UMP (inner city ring). Yeah those people in Prague and Vienna (both of them have a real metro) are really dumb for building it, they should listen to Serbs with diplomas and no money or reference list, the smartest f*cking nation in the whole universe. So till the rest of my life I'll have to waste my time to go to visit my friends in Zeleznik like I did today - going from Bolec all the way down town (to the train station) to catch bus 511 and over crowded Bulevar Vojvode Misica to Zeleznik. The same thing I have to do when I'm going to Krnjaca to visit my best friend - go down town and then again to the suburbs - who the f*ck needs inner city ring - it's more fun this way!
So I'll wait till I'm a grandfather to ride in a metro, while all the Serbs all over the world will be happy and wave serbian flags and rise three fingers for all world to know about greatest serbian construction success - we've built 3km of metro in less than a 30 years, yeepee!!!
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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:38 AM   #11
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I hope I didn't offend you. That wasn't my intention.

As a joke, Belgrade's future full metro* (* as imagined by KM)



















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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Homer Jay
Say YES to LRT

If you listen to people who had to oppurtunuty to build metro 30 years ago you'll wait for another 30, believe me!
No offense KM, but we don't need smart-asses who live in Canada to say what to do in Belgrade. The fact is we're poor, we don't have money nor time to build metro (12 years for the first line, OMG who's ready to wait for so long). The fact is the cities that have more money than Bg have decided for LRT rather than metro. And another thing the size and importance of our city for the world is overrated by the most Serbs, the feasibility study done by Ineco shows the best what I mean.
The most stupid thing among metro supporters is that they're against UMP (inner city ring). Yeah those people in Prague and Vienna (both of them have a real metro) are really dumb for building it, they should listen to Serbs with diplomas and no money or reference list, the smartest f*cking nation in the whole universe. So till the rest of my life I'll have to waste my time to go to visit my friends in Zeleznik like I did today - going from Bolec all the way down town (to the train station) to catch bus 511 and over crowded Bulevar Vojvode Misica to Zeleznik. The same thing I have to do when I'm going to Krnjaca to visit my best friend - go down town and then again to the suburbs - who the f*ck needs inner city ring - it's more fun this way!
So I'll wait till I'm a grandfather to ride in a metro, while all the Serbs all over the world will be happy and wave serbian flags and rise three fingers for all world to know about greatest serbian construction success - we've built 3km of metro in less than a 30 years, yeepee!!!
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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:40 AM   #13
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I....cekam? Jel ima tu neka slika ili ne?

Offend me? Ma daj bre, svako ima pravo na svoje misjlenje...a i zasto bi me ovako nesto uvredilo?
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Old August 9th, 2006, 01:49 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Similos
I....cekam? Jel ima tu neka slika ili ne?

Offend me? Ma daj bre, svako ima pravo na svoje misjlenje...a i zasto bi me ovako nesto uvredilo?
I actually like this thread because it allows for debate and the debate happens to be about something actually related to the subject matter of this website. It doesn't happen very often in the EE forums. However, these discussions have to be realistic.
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Old August 9th, 2006, 02:08 AM   #15
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Pa dobro braco, gradite onda vi taj svoj "LRT" ali bez Zemuna i bez para nasih poreznika Nama ce taj novac trebati za izgradnju sopstvene tramvajske mreze, posto taj vas LRT uopste izgleda nece ni prelaziti granicu Novog Beograda i Zemuna.

Cisto da vam docaram....ovo je mapa centralnog dela Zemuna...



- Crveni krug - Tvornicka ulica, planirana zadnja stanica LRT-a.
- Plavi krug - Cisto radi teme, moje stambeno naselje "Save Kovacevic", sa nekih 15-tak hiljada stanovnika
-Zelena strela - put prema Batajnici, Zemunsko naselje sa skoro 100.000 stanovnika

Eto, samo toliko
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Old August 9th, 2006, 11:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PyRoMaNiAc
This analysis was done by Ineco, not by some city officials, which you were hinting at. I'll trust their ideas and opinions more than those of self-proclaimed experts that have been pushing the idea of a heavy rail metro system since the time of Tito and are now attempting to stall any new plan because it will be replacing theirs..
Interesantno je da taj Ineco treba i da gradi LRT u Beogradu.

Cinjenica je da svi,SVI gradovi u Evropi velicine Beograda imaju PRAVI metro
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Old August 9th, 2006, 02:26 PM   #17
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Posted by Pyromaniac..It's typical for a lot of Serbs to not know much about a subject, yet pretend that they are experts. It's also not uncommon for them to find some sort of non-existent conspiracy in everything.
Watch your nation,not mine.Every policy is conspiracy,problem is in your missunderstanding of policy.No offence KM.
Quote:
The LRT system could be built in a much shorter time period, yet would solve the exact same problem in a much more
Hey,pal first line of NY metro was built for four years almost 100 years ago.T was long 33 km.
Quote:
The new people in power will actually finish something because they're slightly more down-to-earth and know what Serbia can and cannot currently do. Living in reality is a nice thing. They are showing results because they're not living in the clouds.
Serbia is in transition.Serbia is very successful in economic reforms,average growing of GDP is about 7% in past years Gold and money reserves will be about 10 billion $ to the end of year.That is fact,not dream.Belgrade becoming business and transport hub for this part of Europe.
BTW Bulgaria is already building metro in Sofia.
Quote:
car traffic congestion will still remain
I would always prefer metro than car .Now I don,t have choice.
Quote:
If you listen to people who had to oppurtunuty to build metro 30 years ago you'll wait for another 30, believe me!
No more comunism and Milosevic in Serbia.But their ideas still exists.
Quote:
we've built 3km of metro in less than a 30 years, yeepee!!!
Do you beleive that Bulgaria is more successful than Serbia.I don't.
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Old August 9th, 2006, 02:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col
Interesantno je da taj Ineco treba i da gradi LRT u Beogradu.

Cinjenica je da svi,SVI gradovi u Evropi velicine Beograda imaju PRAVI metro
Ineco isn't going to construct the LRT. I don't know where you got that from. At most, they could do the technical documentation and design the actual line (not just its line of travel). And even that is questionable because the city has to announce another tender for that. That company doesn't carry out construction works (it's not their field), they only perform the engineering design projects necessary for the form of infrastructure.

This again brings me back to my comment about Serbs pretending that they're experts and know everything, in the process finding some conspiracy with people trying to steal money or something, when in reality they know very little. Do some research before you start making accusations. I'll go a bit off topic, but I'll give another example of this. Trigranit will be responsible for completing Prokop and in return will have the rights to construct an office-commercial centre on the platform above. I go on a Serbian railway fan forum where people should be well informed about things happening in that field, and you have people complaining about how Serbian Railways shouldn't be investing in real estate, that the company won't be able to invest 200 million Euros, and that it's going to get those 200 million Euros from the government and then put it in their own pockets. Hello!!! In the news it clearly said how this arrangement was going to function. Serbian Railways isn't investing in real estate, but Trigranit is. In return, Serbian Railways will get a completed Prokop Station and 10000 square metres of office space in the staion. Serbian Railways won't be investing another cent in the project. And there's no way of them pocketing the money because they're not getting any of it. Another example would be when Mobtel was sold. The majority of people were happy with the price. However, some claimed that it could have been sold for more. Now if you compare it to the sale of Mtel in Bulgaria, which has more customers than Mobtel, you'll see that the Serbian government got approximately 750 Euros per customer whereas for Mtel the Bulgarian government got around 550 Euros. Therefore, it was a very good deal, and was higher than the market value in the region.

Maybe some other cities in Europe that are Belgrade's size have a full metro. Why does that matter though? One has to look at when they were built. Maybe at the time, the LRT concept wasn't as widespread or as developed as it is now. Also, maybe those cities have more money or studies projected much higher passenger numbers than in Belgrade. We are not here to compete with other cities to see who can build a bigger and nicer subway system. Belgrade has to look at how much it can afford and the best solution for the growing traffic problems. If the LRT can be as effective as a metro yet will cost 1/3 of the price, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. As Homer Jay mentioned, Belgrade cannot wait another 30 to forever years so that it can construct a full metro. These problems need to be solved immediately or there will be a traffic collapse. Are you suggesting that instead of constructing three lines for the LRT within the next 10 years or so, we should wait another 30 years so that it will take a few decades to construct those three lines?

I'll repeat the UMP idea as well. If Belgrade were to construct a full metro, the UMP idea would be dead. There wouldn't be any money for it because it costs as much as the full LRT system with three lines. However, the problems that the UMP will solve, cannot be solved by a full or light rail metro alone. Seeing as how those "experts with no reference lists" (as Homer Jay said ) are claiming that the UMP isn't required, I don't see how we can trust their opinions at all.

I suggest you read Homer Jay's post again:
Quote:
Say YES to LRT

If you listen to people who had to oppurtunuty to build metro 30 years ago you'll wait for another 30, believe me!
No offense KM, but we don't need smart-asses who live in Canada to say what to do in Belgrade. The fact is we're poor, we don't have money nor time to build metro (12 years for the first line, OMG who's ready to wait for so long). The fact is the cities that have more money than Bg have decided for LRT rather than metro. And another thing the size and importance of our city for the world is overrated by the most Serbs, the feasibility study done by Ineco shows the best what I mean.
The most stupid thing among metro supporters is that they're against UMP (inner city ring). Yeah those people in Prague and Vienna (both of them have a real metro) are really dumb for building it, they should listen to Serbs with diplomas and no money or reference list, the smartest f*cking nation in the whole universe. So till the rest of my life I'll have to waste my time to go to visit my friends in Zeleznik like I did today - going from Bolec all the way down town (to the train station) to catch bus 511 and over crowded Bulevar Vojvode Misica to Zeleznik. The same thing I have to do when I'm going to Krnjaca to visit my best friend - go down town and then again to the suburbs - who the f*ck needs inner city ring - it's more fun this way!
So I'll wait till I'm a grandfather to ride in a metro, while all the Serbs all over the world will be happy and wave serbian flags and rise three fingers for all world to know about greatest serbian construction success - we've built 3km of metro in less than a 30 years, yeepee!!!
Welcome to reality.
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Old August 9th, 2006, 03:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serb-knight
Watch your nation,not mine.Every policy is conspiracy,problem is in your missunderstanding of policy.No offence KM.
No, there is no conspiracy. You claim that Ineco is going to construct the LRT. They're not. All they were responsible for was the feasibility study. Another tender will be announced to choose the engineering firm responsible for the system design. Another tender will be announced for the construction firm responsible for building the system. Another tender will be announced for the company responsible for providing the system with vehicles. Ineco isn't even in the field of actually construction. Where did you get the idea that they would be the ones building it?

You claim that the Serbian government should help with the financing of the subway project. I disagree. I'd rather have the Serbian government invest in other projects in Serbia and even Belgrade, but not this one. Maybe they could even help with the UMP. If the problem can be solved with a much less expensive solution such as the LRT, Belgrade will be able to finance it with its budget and loans. The EBRD and EIB have already said that they are willing to offer good loans for the construction of the LRT. They are not willing to do the same for the "real metro".

You claim that the LRT is not an independent system and that it has no fixed schedule. Go check out Porto, Frankfurt, etc. and tell me if that's the case. All stations announce the arrival of the next train. These systems always have lines that are completely independent from car traffic. That means cars won't interfere with it and it won't interfere with cars. This problem is solved everywhere either with synchronizing the lights or placing the line underground at intersection where the problem cannot be solved otherwise. And of course, in most of the downtown it'll be underground and totally independent from traffic.

You also mentioned the Ada bridge. I don't really see why that was important to mention, but your impatience is completely unfounded. First of all, when the design was chosen, only the architectural design was received. That means that the same firm had to then be hired to perform a general study to determine the approximate costs, general design, etc. Once that was done, the city had to find financial coverage for the project. They finally concluded a loan agreement with the EBRD and EIB about two-three months ago. Now a tender needs to be announced for the construction firm that needs to do the entire design and then begin construction. This all takes time and two to three years since getting the architectural solution is quite reasonable for these circumstances. I can't believe that some people expected construction to start immediately after getting an architectural design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serb-knight
Serbia is in transition.Serbia is very successful in economic reforms,average growing of GDP is about 7% in past years Gold and money reserves will be about 10 billion $ to the end of year.That is fact,not dream.Belgrade becoming business and transport hub for this part of Europe.
BTW Bulgaria is already building metro in Sofia.
Yes, Sofia is building a metro, but it's taking forever to build. I'm not familiar with their traffic situation, but maybe it doesn't need an immediate solution and they can wait a really long time to have their entire system completed. Anyways who cares if they have a full metro? If we are integrating into Europe then we should also adopt it's interesting idea of building what is necessary rather than just competing with other cities like little children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serb-knight
I would always prefer metro than car .Now I don,t have choice.
You might live near the future metro line, but the people that don't will still have to drive or take a bus to work or get to the nearest metro station. There's going to be people that aren't willing to give up driving. Either way a large percentage of car traffic will remain and that's why the UMP must also be built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serb-knight
Do you beleive that Bulgaria is more successful than Serbia.I don't.
Who knows? Maybe they are or maybe they aren't, but a metro isn't necessarily an indication of how successful a city and country are. Again I am happy that Belgrade isn't trying to show off with this project, but is instead truly trying to solve the traffic problems in Belgrade by introducing the LRT and UMP.
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Old August 9th, 2006, 03:18 PM   #20
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There is nothing wrong with a light train/tram system that is partially underground. Used it in Stuttgart recently and thought it was great. If it is cheaper and therefore affordable and feasible. Why not? Better to have a functioning system than grandiose plans that never go anywhere. Just my two cents worth ...
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