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[nwusaad]

Well how about the Algerian Sahraouis that are exactly the same as Moroccan Sahrawis , only they are held in the Polisario camps in Tindouf. Given that they are the same as Moroccans, they might be asked to join the referendum even though they are algerian.

How about the tens of thousands of Sahrawis that are held in the tindouf camps. Some may not want to vote for independence, but with the consequences and threats of Polisario they will be forced to vote for independence. You can not deny this fact since there are many refugees that are held in those camps regardless of their will. (Look at manifestations in tindouf...)

Similarly, Morocco can also integrate thousands of Northern Moroccans and consider them sahrawis, and ask-force them to vote one way.

This is the reason I think the referendum should not be considered.

[nwusaad]

Originally Posted by primastro

And the referendum???
It seems that some countries have the right of non respecto of UN resolutions, those are the USA, Israel and Morocco!

Come on, everyone is obliged to follow UN resolutions. Some countries do not do so on some occasions but it is not honest to make it seem as if Morocco constantly does so, or that no other country has ever done so.

[DonQui]

I might add just like Morocco likes to point out that Ceuta and Melilla are occupied Moroccan territory just like Gibraltar is occupied Spanish territory, that Western Sahara is occupied Saharawi territory.

[nwusaad]

Originally Posted by DonQui

I might add just like Morocco likes to point out that Ceuta and Melilla are occupied Moroccan territory just like Gibraltar is occupied Spanish territory, that Western Sahara is occupied Saharawi territory.

The difference is huge. While Morocco may continue to say that Ceuta and Melilia are colonies... (blabla..) the truth of the matter is that they are part of Spain and recognized by the intl community. There are no maps of the world where they dont have: Ceuta, Melillia (Sp.)
This clarification allows people to freely invest in the place...

Today, there are different maps of Morocco ( where one accounts for half of its territory), and there is no map where Morocco includes Ceuta and Melilia as being part of it. The distinction and problem of Western Sahara is that this inconsistency prevents people from investing there and thinking of long term projects.
At the end of the day it is the local inhabitants of the region that suffer, since the stalemate and inability to resolve the problem prevents prosperity, job creation, and cooperation between people. It is for this reason that many petroleum exploring companies ended their prospections in Western Sahara, no huge coastal projects launched by Morocco ( over 100,000 hotel rooms are launched for new coastal resorts as the Plan Azur), and no industrial investment.

Ok... you can say that either way if it was resolved Moroccan politicians will take all the petroleum found (if there is any...).... but at least people are provided jobs, legislature is unified for investors, and there is a safe atmosphere.
Plus to say that Moroccan govt will just exploit all the petroleum and leave the poor pple in bad conditions is an acceptable argument, but nothing guarantees that Polisario will not do the same. Actually, if independence did occur, Polisario is more inclined to do that. Since they will lack capacity to tax people, and not many companies exist.

[nwusaad]

Ceuta and Melillia are Spanish territories. Perhaps Morocco keeps itthat way to pressure Spain every time there is an issue of contention. If getting the two territories back is such a strategic priority then they would have certainly presented the issue to the UN by now, which they have not.

[Casa]

To coment on sahara issue you can continue in this thread
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=377286


and concerning Sebta and melilia issue a thread has been opened for that
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=382656

[primastro]

Originally Posted by nwusaad

How about the tens of thousands of Sahrawis that are held in the tindouf camps. Some may not want to vote for independence, but with the consequences and threats of Polisario they will be forced to vote for independence. You can not deny this fact since there are many refugees that are held in those camps regardless of their will. (Look at manifestations in tindouf...)

They ran away from Morocco rule and repression because they are for the independence. They are not algerian, they are from the Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic, Algeria is just hosting them as refugees.

[nwusaad]

If they are so confident about this fact, why do they not allow the UN to perform a census of the population living in Tindouf?
If the Polisario is such a transparent organization, I feel that they would allow the UN to perform census of the people living there... Or maybe its just more ideal to keep it unknown so that they can benefit from more humanitarian aid that can then be used for the president to buy luxurious houses in spain and corrupt people in power.

It is noted on the UN website that : "Speakers also said that humanitarian aid, provided by the international community for the welfare of the refugees, was sold illegally and the funds used to purchase weapons. And apart from the systematic violations of human rights and diversion of food aid, Saharawi children were often deported to Cuba, Libya, Angola and Mozambique. Other speakers called for an international inquiry into the fate of many people who had disappeared from the Tindouf camps."
Of course, Morocco and Algeria often construe events for their favor, but we can at least consider UN officials speaking reliable. They do not have any stake in the conflict.

Pristaro: Ill agree with you that Morocco was often oppressive and unjust in history, but you can not say that the Polisario is any better.
I hope the conflict can be resolved so that both people can construct a better future for their peoples.
Personally, I hope that Sahrawis can have as much autonomy as possible under Moroccan jurisdiction.

***** For the Polisario/Algeria- Morocco conflict please post on the pertinent threads.

[primastro]

Originally Posted by nwusaad

If they are so confident about this fact, why do they not allow the UN to perform a census of the population living in Tindouf?
If the Polisario is such a transparent organization, I feel that they would allow the UN to perform census of the people living there... Or maybe its just more ideal to keep it unknown so that they can benefit from more humanitarian aid that can then be used for the president to buy luxurious houses in spain and corrupt people in power.

The problem with the referendum census is that Morocco authorities want to include all the settlers sent to Western sahara after 1975, taht will, of course, vote for Morocco.

Originally Posted by nwusaad

Pristaro: Ill agree with you that Morocco was often oppressive and unjust in history, but you can not say that the Polisario is any better.

I don't know much about Polisario, just that the Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic constitution, made mostly by it, is the most progressist of all the arab ones.

[nwusaad]

Originally Posted by primastro

The problem with the referendum census is that Morocco authorities want to include all the settlers sent to Western sahara after 1975, taht will, of course, vote for Morocco.

The truth is that Morocco does not want a referendum at all, regardless of the fact that there are many Northern Moroccans living there. (The James Baker plan suggested that a referendum take place that would include many Moroccan settlers, but Morocco still refused.) I guess that it is difficult for a nation to accept either alternative. Morocco can not consider losing half its territory, and if Polisario (SADR) did win they would probably not accept to cede after all the casualties that have resulted from it and the investment allocated to the region. Also, if the referendum were to go in the favor of the Morocco, I can see the Polisario standup and exclaim that many Sahrawis were threatened by Morocco ... blablabla (or that many Moroccans pretended to by Sahrawi and voted)

Secondly, we were talking about UN humanitarian aid and the fact that the UNHCR decided to reduce the aid allocated to the Polisario by 60% because they said that the Polisario exaggerates the figures of settlers in order to gain more aid. This aid is later sold in the black market or used to buy armament...
The Polisario ("progressive" SADR) does not allow UN officials to go count the number of refugees living in there. There is belief that there are many non-Moroccan Sahrawis in the camps that live off UN aid, while it is supposed to be directed only to the benefit of Moroccan Sahrawis.

I don't know much about Polisario, just that the Democratic Saharawi Arab Republic constitution, made mostly by it, is the most progressist of all the arab ones.

There are no progressive arab countries, their political systems are archaic and structure is not one of a modern state.
I do not know much about the constitution of the SADR, but given that it has had the same president(Mohamed Abdelaziz) for 30years makes me skeptical how progressive it is.

If it is a progressive constition, I hope it can be presented to the CORCAS and allow the Saharawis to govern their lives under it. Since Morocco is presenting the UN with a proposal for the Sahrawi population to live in the Western Sahara with high level of autonomy but under Moroccan sovereignty.

I hope this issue can be resolved. I am sorry for the Sahrawi population that has been living out of their lands for such a long time, and hope that they can return as well as the Polisario (headed by Pres. Abdelaziz) to their homeland.

P.S. I personally am against the banner posted since it can be provocative to some people, who are sensitive to the Polisario stance.

[primastro]

Originally Posted by nwusaad

P.S. I personally am against the banner posted since it can be provocative to some people, who are sensitive to the Polisario stance.

well, the interesting here is discussion. And in many issues, it is totally impossible that some people don't feel uneasy. But it doesn't mean we can't discuss about them!

[nwusaad]

I agree with you primastro. We should discuss these issues, without becoming too emotional about them.
For most Moroccans, the Sahara question is a very sacred one and they are very attached to it. It is not only the position of the government.
Personally, I feel that giving Sahrawis large autonomy under Moroccan jurisdiction is the best solution for both parties. Since it will reconcile both positions. I hope the Polisario understands that it is the best solution for the Sahrawi population. This way at least they can return into their lands, invest and live in peace, and so that the issue can resolve much of the animosity between Algeria-Morocco.

Primastro: You seem to know much about the issue. Are you Spanish, Algerian, or .... Sahrawi ?
Id think you are probably Spanish though.

[primastro]

Originally Posted by nwusaad

I agree with you primastro. We should discuss these issues, without becoming too emotional about them.
For most Moroccans, the Sahara question is a very sacred one and they are very attached to it. It is not only the position of the government.
Personally, I feel that giving Sahrawis large autonomy under Moroccan jurisdiction is the best solution for both parties. Since it will reconcile both positions. I hope the Polisario understands that it is the best solution for the Sahrawi population. This way at least they can return into their lands, invest and live in peace, and so that the issue can resolve much of the animosity between Algeria-Morocco.

Primastro: You seem to know much about the issue. Are you Spanish, Algerian, or .... Sahrawi ?
Id think you are probably Spanish though.

Yes, I am Spanish. I live very close to Morocco and have been there 6 times, but never to Western Sahara. I don't think I know much about it, I just read sometimes news on the papers and, as you know, they don't always tell you true things or all the things.

And you, where are you from??

Another question: are you sure that under this large autonomy refugees from Tindouf could go back to their homes without any fear? Do their former homes still exist?

[nwusaad]

Originally Posted by primastro

Yes, I am Spanish. I live very close to Morocco and have been there 6 times, but never to Western Sahara. I don't think I know much about it, I just read sometimes news on the papers and, as you know, they don't always tell you true things or all the things.

And you, where are you from??

I am Moroccan as you would have guessed, but live across the Atlantic ocean.

Originally Posted by primastro

Another question: are you sure that under this large autonomy refugees from Tindouf could go back to their homes without any fear? Do their former homes still exist?

Of course primastro. lets think about it politically... the only legitimacy the Polisario (SADR) has is if it continues to state that Sahrawis are not allowed to return to Western Sahara. For Morocco to gain legitimacy and respect, it should incite Sahrawis to return to Western Sahara. The way it is shown in many documents, is that Polisario does not want Sahrawis to return to Western Sahara because it will make their argument for independence weaker.

It is for this reason that many high officials of Polisario (SADR) have had to escape Tindouf to return to Western Sahara. Similarly, many of the refugees still have family in the region so they can not wait to return and meet them again.

I think that for Morocco to gain points, it is important to welcome them openly, they can not do any harm to them.
As for the homes, I do not know the conditions they have lived in before. I think that much investment has been allocated to develop the Western Sahara by Morocco, since there was virtually nothing in the region. (perhaps it is not enormous investments in European sense, but it is for Morocco's budget.)
The CORCAS, which is the pro-autonomy representative of the Sahrawi population has already asked all Sahrawis to return to Western Sahara, and asked to even talk directly with the Abdelaziz (SADR president). But I think he does not want to negotiate...
The CORCAS is represented 100% only by Sahrawi people, and seeks to administer Western Sahara affairs autonomuosly.
---
On a different note, Im glad you have visited Morocco so many times... I hope you have enjoyed it. Id guess you did given that you returned back couple of times.
The advantage with this forum is that you can keep visiting Morocco non-stop Hopefully we will have a more elaborate Western Sahara section that way you can visit as well.

[Casa]

we need to make some banners quick for the green march which is the 6th of november and also for independence day the 18th of november , please post your banners and we will choose the best in order to be posted but it should be quick because one week is left for the green march

[Redalinho]

The banner must show that it's the 50th birthday of Independance and that Morocco is one of the oldest nations in the world ( Founded in 788 by My Idrissi 1st)

[belgiumguy]

A mix from Fez and Dakhla.

[Casa]

[Casa]

please give me ur feedback and also if somebody have another banner please post it soon because we have to choose one and send it to jan at least 3 days before the 18 th of november

[Casa]

as i see nobody posted any banner for indepence day ,which is in november 18 i ll be submitting this banner to jan , i did some little changes i think now is perfect and thanks reda, because i used some of ur pictures