London Overground

[sarflonlad]

Originally Posted by Wild@Heart

I have a question. When MTR Laing & TfL take over the North London Line from Silverlink, are they gonna bother painting the trains in the new Overground livery? I'd imagine not as they're due to receive the brand new Electrostars a year later.

Probably. I imagine TfL wants rid of Silverlink livery. Train companies are particularly good at repainting over rolling stock in new leases. e.g. first capital connect.



Am I the only who is annoyed the Electrostars will have just 2 sets of doors for boarding per carriage? Surely a high capacity, high frequency service needs at minimum 3 sets of doors? The existing ELL trains have 4.

[Wild@Heart]

Originally Posted by sarflonlad

Probably. I imagine TfL wants rid of Silverlink livery. Train companies are particularly good at repainting over rolling stock in new leases. e.g. first capital connect.

Well that's something that gets on my nerves. With the constant merry-go-round of train operators, I dread to think how much money's wasted on painting the trains every few years. I would've preferred a national standard livery with a select area of the train (maybe just the front/back) to stick their brand on. That way the rebranding of trains is easier/cheaper and we have trains that look pretty much the same. Like the way the London bus franchise works.

Originally Posted by sarflonlad

Am I the only who is annoyed the Electrostars will have just 2 sets of doors for boarding per carriage? Surely a high capacity, high frequency service needs at minimum 3 sets of doors? The existing ELL trains have 4.

Yeah it does seem like an oversight, expecially when the Overground is described everywhere as to get "tube style services". For this to be possible you'd imagine trains spending under a minute at platforms - possible with 4-door trains?? I dunno...

[sweek]

Don't they just use big stickers, basically?

I hope to see the Overground roundel on the stations some time soon.

[bazzup]

Please does anyone know if tfl will take over the running of existing stations along the ell route, and if so, will they redevelop them, to accommodate extra passengers?

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by bazzup

Please does anyone know if tfl will take over the running of existing stations along the ell route, and if so, will they redevelop them, to accommodate extra passengers?

Well TfL is involved in the management of London Overground but it is a seperate business entity, like the London Underground TfL is the umbrella organisation that coordinates things......I would hope that they take over management or at least install Oyster machines.

Many stations were built to cope with larger than current crowds with obvious exceptions (Rotherhithe and Wapping) but many will be extended, refurbished or altered to allow more space, one that will be reconstructed is Surrey Quays as they hope to make this a significant interchange between the lines of ELLX after 2012. As for those further out the new stations will i'm guessing be built to accomodate as many as possible. Other than that it's in the lap of the gods i think (or Ken Livingstone at least!)

[DarJoLe]

According to an article in the Metro this morning the London Overground line will start appearing on the Tube map from next month.

[bazzup]

Originally Posted by DarJoLe

According to an article in the Metro this morning the London Overground line will start appearing on the Tube map from next month.

That's great news.

On another note, I spoke to TfL and they confirmed that they do plan to upgrade all stations on the London Overground route, although these plans are at a very early stage, so they could not add anything more. I guess the first thing will be Oyster - and not before time!

[Plaistow]

TFL's head of design, Innes Ferguson, gave a talk on Monday night about the new London Overground.

There will be no Overground branding on stations or trains (other than maps) until that particular train or station has reached an acceptable standard. To start with current Silverlink station signs will be overlaid with a white vinyl with the names in black New Johnson (TFL) typeface. There will even be a small sentence saying: This is a temporary sign.

All stations will be renovated (including some major rebuilding) and once the station has come up to a certain standard it will receive Overground branding and signage.

Station names then be of the London Underground style with the station name on the cross bar and an orange roundel. This compares to the DLR and Tramlink which include a generic roundel with the station/stop name next to it.

The stations will be rebuilt with new canopies, walls, information booths and there will be particular attention to getting rid of clutter. Innes showed us a photo of Hackney Central where CCTV cameras have been positioned next to countdown displays, which are of a different colour to ticket machines etc.

There will also be artistic displays at all stations to discourage vandalism and attempts to intergrate with local buses and taxis.

Although the 378s have two sets of doors, a breakthrough for Britain will be the open gangways between carriages meaning that passengers can walk the entire length of the 3-car (or 4-car, depending on route) train without having to open connnecting doors. Currently the only opportunity to do this is on the DLR, Tramlink and bendy buses. As previously stated by TFL, the seats will be longitudial rather than the usual 2+2 arrangement of the 376s.

From a personal point of view, I think they will debut the brand at the new Shepherd's Bush station on November 11 when Overground take over the system. It's brand new, completed and is a perfect candidate to display Overground signage. However, that's just a personal forecast.

Current trains are unlikely to be given Overground livery, although they will be cleaned and of course the Silverlink name will be removed.

As stated earlier in this thread, Overground services will appear on Tube maps from next month.

I think Overground are right not to dilute the brand. Other TOCs like First Capital Connect and SouthEastern set about adding their logo and colour scheme everywhere without sorting out the basics. Southern bucked this trend. It was known as SouthCentral until it rolled out new trains and satisfactory station refurbishment. (But if the concept drawings at Innes' talk were to be believed, expect much bigger station refurbishment schemes from Overground.)

[sweek]

Thanks for that information!
Do you know how the Overground will appear on the tube map? In the orange-white-orange stripe as we've seen on future maps? Would the lines we have now appear on it, and will the Dalston to Shoreditch section and the southern extensions appear as under construction, maybe?

Oh well, I don't expect you to know all of this, but I am wondering.
This does mean that PAYG will work as of November I hope. I haven't seen any readers yet at Harringay Green Lanes, which is the only overground station I visit. There are nice new ticket machines, though.

[Plaistow]

I think the Overground will be represented as the two narrow orange lines (rather like the DLR is shown as two narrow blue/green lines) but I'm not sure about the southern section. Presumably, at the start the East London Line will continue to be shown as a solid Underground line until it closes in December.

Although on the Tube map, the Overground will look like one system, there was no mention of whether the existing lines (eg NLL, GOBLIN, WLN) would be shown as separate lines on platform maps / inside Overground trains.

For example the DLR appears as one line on Tube maps, but on DLR platforms the different routes (such as the lines to Lewisham, Bank, City Airport etc) are clearly shown.

Oyster pre-pay is a priority and will be introduced. I can't remember if it will be rolled out from day one or not but I think it will be within the first four months. (But don't quote me on that!)

There was no mention of what branding we can expect at Southern stations (such as Anerley or Forest Hill) once the Overground takes over the completed East London Line in 2010. I presume the stations will continue to have Southern (or a future operator) branding but a totem pole outside will also feature the Overground logo. That's pure speculation, though.

There was no mention of whether the new 172 diesel units on the GOBLIN will feature long seating or open gangways between carriages.

[sarflonlad]

All very exciting! Roll on next month's map... is it wrong to get excited by that?

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by Plaistow

I think the Overground will be represented as the two narrow orange lines (rather like the DLR is shown as two narrow blue/green lines) but I'm not sure about the southern section. Presumably, at the start the East London Line will continue to be shown as a solid Underground line until it closes in December.

sounds sensible - it's what TfL have on their 2010 map.

For example the DLR appears as one line on Tube maps, but on DLR platforms the different routes (such as the lines to Lewisham, Bank, City Airport etc) are clearly shown.

the services on Overground are fairly simple - the DLR is far more complex in terms of routes and so on. Overground will be shown as two lines on the map - the Watford DC lines and the Orbital services. The Orbital services are in effect like the Northern Circle - there are two branches in the east (Circle and H&C) and two branches to the west (again, circle and H&C). The ELL is kind of like the Met, if the Met terminated at Euston Square and had it's own tracks from there to Baker Street. Therefore the 'this platform to' diagrams would show the routes seperate during the split bits, but the core bit would have them as 2 branches. The in train line diagrams would be like the C stock ones - cover all the lines (ignoring Watford), as they would serve all the lines (well when Goblin is electrified, and the WLL electrification sorted out).

There was no mention of what branding we can expect at Southern stations (such as Anerley or Forest Hill) once the Overground takes over the completed East London Line in 2010. I presume the stations will continue to have Southern (or a future operator) branding but a totem pole outside will also feature the Overground logo. That's pure speculation, though.

one would guess that a roundel or two might appear on each platform, just for the sake of branding - after all, this whole Overground branding thing is to get the roundel into places it's never been for bonus points to TfL/Ken. Heh, it even looks like the Underground one! There wasn't really a reason why it couldn't have been branded like a standard TOC. They won't appear straight away, but I'm sure TfL will have Southern put them up at some point.

[bazzup]

Plaistow, that's really interesting thanks.

Did they confirm that this programme of redevelopment will be extended to southern stations on the ELL extension by 2010 please?

[Plaistow]

No indication, I'm afraid. My own personal view is that any existing East London Line stations that are owned by London Underground will be refurbished where necessarily, along with NLL, GOBLIN, WLL etc.

However, I presume that stations south of New Cross / New Cross Gate will remain in Network Rail control and as such will retain their Southern (if they still run the franchise in 2010) branding. Overground logos are bound to appear outside of the station and on maps but I can't see Southern giving up a station. But I could be wrong. There was certainly no official explanation at the talk. Who knows, by that stage the Overground brand might have spread into south London.

It was pointed out that at Canada Water for example, which is relatively new, the large red and blue Underground platforms signs on the ELL (not Jubilee) will become Overground orange and blue coloured signs. However, the strip of orange that runs on the walls above head of height won't be changed because the shade is almost the same as the new Overground orange as this would be seen to be a waste of money.

[bazzup]

Originally Posted by Plaistow

No indication, I'm afraid. .

Oh well, we live in hope, thanks for the update. I'm mainly concerned about the upgrades to the stations south of New Cross, rather than the cosmetics, although that would be nice too.

[SELondoner]

I have seen an artist's impression of an Overground-branded Forest Hill, although I agree with the comment above that Southern are unlikely to want their identity subsumed. Clearly TfL have some ambitions in that direction though.

As for when to re-brand, I think they are dead right to go low key initially. People may go and try it when the see it on the tube maps and then go and complain that it's crap, denting TfL's image. They must make it clear that it is a TfL service but at the same time keep it a little arms-length, i.e. "TfL's running this train now, but don't blame us that it's grotty, we've bought new ones to replace it from next year."

[Brilliant]

The production of the first Electrostar Overground trains has started at Bombardier in Derby on September the 25th 2007.

Link.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/6076.aspx

[dronkula]

Completely off topic, but something I've noticed on tube maps now is they have a little box warning you about engineering works.

However, they're not called 'Engineering works' - they're called 'Improvement Works' now. Sneaky.

[gothicform]

i believe the cost of rebranding your average intercity franchise is 2 million pounds. you could buy 1.5 turbo stars for every time you repaint your engines!

[sweek]

The absolutely great blog London Connections has given us some more news from a TfL board meeting on, among other things, the London Overground.

- The upgrade plans for the North London Line are due to be agreed with Network Rail this month, for delivery in 2010-11. This presumably includes resignalling, 3 and 4 tracking in places and platform extensions for 4 car trains. The associated improvement in service is called "SLC2k" and is due in January 2011.
- The superstructure design for the bridge over Shoreditch High Street has been approved.
- The 3 extra Overground trains ordered in July are said to be dual voltage and intended for the North London Line, rather than for the East London Line as stated at the time
- Stations on the Gospel Oak to Barking line will get shelters by March 2008, and initial repairs at all Overground stations will be completed by May. The full upgrade programme will run until November 2011, however.

http://londonconnections.blogspot.co...ing-notes.html
Nothing big here or whatever. Check out the rest of the site for more news on Transport in London.