London Overground

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

Victim of its own success already... I've tried using the East London Line in the peak a couple of times lately (Northbound from Surrey Quays) and you can't get on trains ex-West Croydon or Crystal Palace... you have to wait for an ex-New Cross one.

The Clapham Junction extension is no doubt going to be mobbed too... but as a Peckham resident I can't wait... according to Zoopla our property has already gone up 10% since we bought it in the summer. Our rail links already are great (12 minutes to Victoria, 8 minutes to London Bridge), but people are fickle / stupid and hold a lot of stock in somewhere "being on the Tube".

This is why I think the suburban lines should be brought under TFL, amonst other reasons (ticketing being the primary). Many of these lines, Waterloo-Chesington South for example, terminate within the M25.

[LondonerMiles]

Hmm that could work, the old Network southeast route brands under TFL, hope it'd not "tubey" though. Johnsons typeface is never going to look right in West Croydon station

[sotonsi]

The big problem is routes that leave Greater London that would be franchised by TfL and (to a lesser extent, perhaps) routes which run on the same tracks as TfL franchised services, but go further afield.

Case in point is the decrease in service north of Moor Park on the Met, and the removal of off-peak fast services - there's no votes in Bucks or Herts, so Pinner and Northwood - where there are votes - get to dictate the timetable at the cost of those further out.

Certainly there's routes that TfL, rather than the DfT should be franchising, but they needs to be some sort of way for conflicts between the needs of Greater London passengers, and the needs of those travelling in from outside, to be resolved fairly - which wouldn't be the case with TfL franchising.

[kerouac1848]

In Paris RATP works on behalf of STIF, who are the transport authority for the whole of the Paris metro region, or Ile-de-France if you prefer, which is not the equivalent of Greater London and the boroughs, but more GL and about 3/4 of the Home Counties area. I think the board is overseen/chosen not only by the mayor of Paris but all leaders of the 8 Departments that make up the region. TfGM also have a similar-ish set-up with multiple councilors voting on operations.

Obviously London does not have an official London administrative region based roughly on its metro area, but still, Tfl's rail department could be overseen/chosen by a board made up of the Mayor and council leaders of counties surrounding, titled London Rail Authority for example. Tfl would manage its operations like it does its other subsidies, but clearly a LRA would have to have a separate legal character from the rest of Tfl operations who would remain solely under the Mayor's remit.

[LondonerMiles]

Routes could be:

Almost all Southern routes out of Victoria/London Bridge
SouthEastern- Hayes, Greenwich and Bexlyheath lines
Great Northern
West Anglia Lines?

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by kerouac1848

In Paris RATP works on behalf of STIF, who are the transport authority for the whole of the Paris metro region, or Ile-de-France if you prefer, which is not the equivalent of Greater London and the boroughs, but more GL and about 3/4 of the Home Counties area. I think the board is overseen/chosen not only by the mayor of Paris but all leaders of the 8 Departments that make up the region. TfGM also have a similar-ish set-up with multiple councilors voting on operations.

Obviously London does not have an official London administrative region based roughly on its metro area, but still, Tfl's rail department could be overseen/chosen by a board made up of the Mayor and council leaders of counties surrounding, titled London Rail Authority for example. Tfl would manage its operations like it does its other subsidies, but clearly a LRA would have to have a separate legal character from the rest of Tfl operations who would remain solely under the Mayor's remit.

London dominates all already. The civil service is not interested in regional structures that span the London Metro area. Why do you think the boundaries of the SE region and the Eastern region are drawn the way they are. A super region that was made up of the richest part of the country could lead to it's tensions between it and central government in regards to tax revenue.

[kerouac1848]

I wasn't arguing it should have one (although I think it should personally, but not the entirety of the HC boundaries), but merely stating its absence shouldn't be a barrier to developing an Overground/London rail authority for local routes jointly overseen by the Mayor and council leaders in order to ease political fears.

[citybus]

Originally Posted by Tubeman

Our rail links already are great (12 minutes to Victoria, 8 minutes to London Bridge), but people are fickle / stupid and hold a lot of stock in somewhere "being on the Tube".

This has got me thinking, people put too much of an emphasis on south london being put on the tube map. Take somewhere like Norwood Junction, it's a relatively unimportant place one stop up from an important interchange (Croydon) yet it has a decent amount of semi fast services along with the slow ones. And yet people not on the ball will swear the torturously slow East London Line saved the area from isolated obscurity.

So what are the existing railway stations south of the river that really do need a 'tube line', the kind of places where anything less than an extra 12 tph just wouldn't be enough to satisfy existing demand.

[cle]

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/New...4J1DHU,21P2O,1

So the Westfield London extension has been approved, and it appears SB overground station is being extended.

I know that RUSes have said 8 cars for Southern and 5-6 for LO, so this will be ready. I'm not sure exactly about the new entrance. I assume at the north end, but even 8 car platforms won't be that long to make a big difference.

How will that end connect to the shopping centre? I assume it'll be how it feeds into the new bridge to Latimer Road area.

Good news though.

[mr_jrt]

Originally Posted by cle

http://www.lbhf.gov.uk/Directory/New...4J1DHU,21P2O,1

So the Westfield London extension has been approved, and it appears SB overground station is being extended.

I know that RUSes have said 8 cars for Southern and 5-6 for LO, so this will be ready. I'm not sure exactly about the new entrance. I assume at the north end, but even 8 car platforms won't be that long to make a big difference.

How will that end connect to the shopping centre? I assume it'll be how it feeds into the new bridge to Latimer Road area.

Good news though.

Should've squeezed them for more, perhaps to reinstate the GWR link to the Central line alignment or to four-track Shepherds Bush. Even 12 car platforms would've been something given the lengthening going on at both ends of the WLL (WCML is already 12 car, BML is good for 12 on the fasts and at least 10 on the slows and 12 will come in due course I suspect).

[cle]

The problem is that the rest of the WLL will need to be brought up to speed - unless additional services such as the second Southern TPH are semi-fast or something, but that might ruin even pathing.

12 cars would mean that 4 car trains would sit at one end of the platform - witness City Thameslink or Farringdon in the peaks when you get the occasional 4 car working and people have to sprint down!

[mr_jrt]

Originally Posted by cle

The problem is that the rest of the WLL will need to be brought up to speed - unless additional services such as the second Southern TPH are semi-fast or something, but that might ruin even pathing.

12 cars would mean that 4 car trains would sit at one end of the platform - witness City Thameslink or Farringdon in the peaks when you get the occasional 4 car working and people have to sprint down!

Nah - it's just future proofing. Having 12 car platforms ready (and paid for by someone else!) doesn't mean you have to switch to 12 straight away, just that you can. No big deal about the 4 cars...people will soon learn that the current entrance is the one to use when in doubt

Of the other stations, Olympia should be easy enough (and they can bring the original platform face back into use and restore the loop), West Brompton should be easy enough, and then it's just Imperial Wharf, where I suspect that 12 is as equally hard as 8 given it's location, and it's getting 8.

No, I think the real problem will be at Clapham Junction actually. 16 can handle 8 cars, but I think 17 can only handle 6 from the looks of the aerial photos. Extending 16 and 17 would at the very least entail straightening the platform and building out over the car park and greenery immediately north of the station. Expensive work I suspect.

[Jon10]

Reply to Question to the Mayor in March:

Interchanges in Outer London

Question No: 927 / 2012

Navin Shah

What additional interchanges between the orbital London Overground system and the radial tube and railway lines has the Mayor identified as being feasible at non-exorbitant cost in the foreseeable future?

Written response from the Mayor

I set out the concept of Strategic Interchanges in my Transport Strategy and enhancement schemes are completed, underway or proposed at seven locations on the Overground network:

· Clapham Junction – construction of an extra staircase to Overground platforms and remodelling of Grant Road ticket hall are underway, to improve interchange with radial services

· Hackney Downs / Hackney Central – TfL is working with the London Borough of Hackney to secure funding for a direct walking route between these two stations

· Highbury & Islington – step free access to the Overground platforms has already been delivered and the ticket hall currently being refurbished

· Stratford – significant improvements to interchange have been delivered associated with the 2012 Games and London Overground upgrades

· Walthamstow Queen’s Road / Walthamstow Central – a scheme to provide new direct walking route between stations is being progressed

· West Croydon – a second entrance to provide direct link between Tramlink and London Overground is due to open by the summer

· West Hampstead – step free access to Overground station will be provided by 2014; TfL is working with the London Borough of Camden to secure funding for an enlarged ticket hall.

In addition, of course, the opening of the new London Overground route between Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction in December this year will provide interchange between orbital and radial services at a number of locations, including Peckham Rye, Clapham High Street / Clapham North, and Clapham Junction.
.

[LondonerMiles]

Where there ever any plans of routing the ELLX via Liverpool Street via some sort of connection at the top of Bishopsgate? That would of been a godsend.

[citybus]

I found an article from 10 years ago where an organisation was decrying the choice of routing the ELLX to West Croydon, saying that it really should be East Croydon so as to offer good interchange with the Gatwick line. Can't help think that they have a point.

[LondonerMiles]

Yes I've always thought why not East Croydon, it seems most rail services in South London prefer West for some reason

[sotonsi]

There's 'no space' at East Croydon.

Isn't West also a better station for the town centre?

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by LondonerMiles

Where there ever any plans of routing the ELLX via Liverpool Street via some sort of connection at the top of Bishopsgate? That would of been a godsend.

Yes, been plenty of plans. Offical plans in the 70's would have seen the ELL from Liverpool Street to Lewisham. However of you mean the Overground, it's actually the ELR (even tho pre-opening it was the ELLX)

Originally Posted by citybus

I found an article from 10 years ago where an organisation was decrying the choice of routing the ELLX to West Croydon, saying that it really should be East Croydon so as to offer good interchange with the Gatwick line. Can't help think that they have a point.

Yes, but with withdrawn for performance issues. It wouldn't have turned back to East Croydon but South Croydon like the Milton Keynes service.

Originally Posted by sotonsi

There's 'no space' at East Croydon.

Isn't West also a better station for the town centre?

Sort of but paths from East Croydon are more suitable and better for wheelchair/those with buggies from East than West stations.

[mr_jrt]

Originally Posted by sotonsi

There's 'no space' at East Croydon.

No easy space, no. Plenty of space otherwise. Demolish the building south of the main bridge and you can easily fit another pair (or more!) of tracks through the station. Any further south would be crazy expensive as you'd have to widen the cutting (perhaps you'd only need a single track's worth though) all the way down to South Croydon, but for a pair of terminal platforms at East Croydon it's quite doable. If you gave up any pretence of ever heading south, you could just build terminal platforms on the wasteland and all you'd need are some flyovers...though essentially you'd just be moving the West Croydon terminus closer. The real capacity benefits would come from onward extensions south to the Tattenham Corner and Caterham branches.

[sotonsi]

Originally Posted by mr_jrt

No easy space, no. Plenty of space otherwise.

Absolutely, hence I said "'no space'" rather than plain vanilla "no space".