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Old June 2nd, 2015, 10:07 PM   #22421
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Old June 3rd, 2015, 11:11 PM   #22422
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Old June 3rd, 2015, 11:28 PM   #22423
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my city (mexico city) looks like a small town compared to shanghai. I need to go to shanghai now. cool pics everybody!
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Old June 4th, 2015, 01:04 AM   #22424
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Shanghai lets me breathless. It looks like a city from the year 2070.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 01:30 AM   #22425
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Can't believe Shanghai Tower is topped out now. It seemed like it was going up within the blink of an eye! The city's skyline becomes truly remarkable and enormous, easily rivalling Hong Kong's position within the Asian realm.

Though, Pudong (in the skyscraper area) definitely needs to become more urban, with actual street-aligned blocks, mixed uses, real street life, apartments, entertainment, more low- and midrises, more variety. It still seems somewhat artificial in some bland, Dubai-ish way. The main problem is that towers are built solitarily, while they would need block perimeter base buildings which shape a real street-level city. This is generally observed in China far too often.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 06:48 AM   #22426
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You also need to take into account whether street life is even viable. In China, people don't often go out for lunch, unlike in the West. They don't even walk outside to get take-out. Most local companies have a cafeteria offering discounted food on premises, so they just venture downstairs for breakfast, lunch, and even dinner. Eating out is expensive. In Lujiazui, the commercial skyscraper area, the malls charge fairly international prices, which are out of range for the average office worker. They balked when I had a RMB 100 meal, considered cheap by Hong Kong standards, considering they're only paying RMB 20 for a big lunch at the cafeteria.

Not sure whether filling the streets with retail and restaurants is viable given this unique office dynamic in China (not just a Shanghai thing). Filling the streets with the cheap street vendors and dirty markets probably isn't the best thing for a prestigious commercial area either.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 09:37 AM   #22427
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Old June 4th, 2015, 02:11 PM   #22428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You also need to take into account whether street life is even viable. In China, people don't often go out for lunch, unlike in the West. They don't even walk outside to get take-out. Most local companies have a cafeteria offering discounted food on premises, so they just venture downstairs for breakfast, lunch, and even dinner. Eating out is expensive. In Lujiazui, the commercial skyscraper area, the malls charge fairly international prices, which are out of range for the average office worker. They balked when I had a RMB 100 meal, considered cheap by Hong Kong standards, considering they're only paying RMB 20 for a big lunch at the cafeteria.

Not sure whether filling the streets with retail and restaurants is viable given this unique office dynamic in China (not just a Shanghai thing). Filling the streets with the cheap street vendors and dirty markets probably isn't the best thing for a prestigious commercial area either.
Is 100RMB 'cheap' by Hong Kong standards? From my experience you would barely ever have to pay half that for any kind of fast food in HK (unless you go for a less 'fast' and more upscale place). Even by London or Paris standards 100RMB is not considered cheap for a lunch and therefore most certainly not by HK standards.

Fast foods like McD tend to be cheaper in Hong Kong than Mainland China which was rather surprising to me (due to different tax rates I suppose?). Of course if you take income levels into account it's a different story.

I think I see erbse's point though. And that's to do with the street-level planning in Lujiazui than anything else. That early 90's planning was one fo the first attempts to create a new CDB from scratch in China and it shows. Take Guangzhou CBD for instance. Or something like Shenzhen Houhai. You can see a big difference in how things work there and Lujiazui.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 03:26 PM   #22429
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Old June 4th, 2015, 03:58 PM   #22430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Is 100RMB 'cheap' by Hong Kong standards? From my experience you would barely ever have to pay half that for any kind of fast food in HK (unless you go for a less 'fast' and more upscale place). Even by London or Paris standards 100RMB is not considered cheap for a lunch and therefore most certainly not by HK standards.

Fast foods like McD tend to be cheaper in Hong Kong than Mainland China which was rather surprising to me (due to different tax rates I suppose?). Of course if you take income levels into account it's a different story.

I think I see erbse's point though. And that's to do with the street-level planning in Lujiazui than anything else. That early 90's planning was one fo the first attempts to create a new CDB from scratch in China and it shows. Take Guangzhou CBD for instance. Or something like Shenzhen Houhai. You can see a big difference in how things work there and Lujiazui.
Compare Lujiazui to Central. If you grab a sit-down restaurant at IFC in Central, RMB 100 is nothing. We're not talking about fast food like Cafe de Coral or McDonald's.

Fast food in Lujiazui will ultimately fail. Their prices and selection can never beat the cheap employee cafeterias anyway.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 04:08 PM   #22431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Compare Lujiazui to Central. If you grab a sit-down restaurant at IFC in Central, RMB 100 is nothing. We're not talking about fast food like Cafe de Coral or McDonald's.

Fast food in Lujiazui will ultimately fail. Their prices and selection can never beat the cheap employee cafeterias anyway.
Are you saying office workers in Central spend in excess of ¥100/€15 to have lunch during the lunchbreak?

Anyway, you just confirm my point about Lujiazui. Lack of quality planning and activities is the main reason why dining and street-life is lacking. Because it lacks attraction to those who are not working there unlike other locations I mentioned. Due to insufficient thinking (or experience) about planning back in the early 90's.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 04:12 PM   #22432
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Quote:
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Are you saying office workers in Central spend in excess of ¥100/€15 to have lunch during the lunchbreak?

Anyway, you just confirm my point about Lujiazui. Lack of quality planning and activities is the main reason why dining and street-life is lacking. Because it lacks attraction to those who are not working there unlike other locations I mentioned. Due to insufficient thinking (or experience) about planning back in the early 90's.
Yes. Most people easily spend well over $100 to sit down in a restaurant for lunch. Food courts are not common in Hong Kong. Cafeterias are also not common so some go for fast food or cha chan teng. Fast food is no longer cheap - easily $40, and cha chan teng can easily hit $80 these days. People don't generally like to buy take away and bring back to the office so sit-down in a restaurant is the preferred option. The income profile for the typical office worker in Central has increased as cheaper support jobs move to the suburbs, while commercial rents continue to skyrocket, kicking out the cheap eateries rapidly. Food trucks like you see in New York are illegal.

Lujiazui has quiet streets, but it is actually a very well-mixed neighbourhood. Cheap housing already borders the beautiful SWFC, while higher-class residentials front the riverfront steps from the new Shanghai Tower.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 04:20 PM   #22433
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Quote:
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Yes. Most people easily spend well over $100 to sit down in a restaurant for lunch. Food courts are not common in Hong Kong.
This would be somewhat contrary to London where salaries in relevant industries tend to be considerably higher than in HK yet spending on lunch is like 3 times higher in HK. Do Hongkongers care that much more about food? That's also a very different situatiuon from Singapore where typical lunchbreak takes place in a nearby public faceteria/food court and costs around SG$10. It's kinda hard to believe that office workers in Hong Kong would spend something in a range of 2-3 times more than Singaporeans do.

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Lujiazui has quiet streets, but it is actually a very well-mixed neighbourhood. Cheap housing already borders the beautiful SWFC, while higher-class residentials front the riverfront steps from the new Shanghai Tower.
Which is what I was saying: Lujiazui hasn't got the planning that is needed to knit it all together as Guangzhou CBD or Shenzhen's new business/office areas. You just won't bother going for a walk in Lujiazui ar you would in Shenzhen Houhai or Guangzhou CBD. All about planning practices. Something that perhaps can still be amended in Lujiazui in a mid to long term. Not much to do with habits of office workers as such.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 04:48 PM   #22434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
This would be somewhat contrary to London where salaries in relevant industries tend to be considerably higher than in HK yet spending on lunch is like 3 times higher in HK. Do Hongkongers care that much more about food? That's also a very different situatiuon from Singapore where typical lunchbreak takes place in a nearby public faceteria/food court and costs around SG$10. It's kinda hard to believe that office workers in Hong Kong would spend something in a range of 2-3 times more than Singaporeans do.
Chinese people are very picky about food. There is a rich gastronomic history but the fact that developers can't edge enough profits out of food courts means peoples' lunch choices need to shift and are fundamentally different from the office workers in New York and London. Besides, the economy is driven by finance, and the stock brokers historically loved to enjoy their long lunches at a dim sum restaurant, not be crowded indignently in a food court setting. That's why when the exchange decided to shorten the lunch hour, there was fierce opposition. Notice there is not a single food court in Central's biggest and most reputable buildings - IFC, Landmark, Bank of China, and HSBC. Singapore has plenty of food courts and I could easily get a good meal for SGD $5, but that is not the case in Hong Kong. We spend much more here for lunch in a nicer, sit-down setting, just as we spend much more here for housing. But our average wages here are higher.

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Which is what I was saying: Lujiazui hasn't got the planning that is needed to knit it all together as Guangzhou CBD or Shenzhen's new business/office areas. You just won't bother going for a walk in Lujiazui ar you would in Shenzhen Houhai or Guangzhou CBD. All about planning practices. Something that perhaps can still be amended in Lujiazui in a mid to long term. Not much to do with habits of office workers as such.
Futian and Zhujiang New Town are not exactly lively places either. The streets are quite deserted. But I think this is climate driven - when half the year is too hot and humid to linger outside. To be fair, Shanghai has crazily hot summers but at least their summer is a few months shorter. I was sizzling under 37C in Shanghai last summer, and it wasn't anything atypical for their season either.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 05:33 PM   #22435
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Futian and Zhujiang New Town are not exactly lively places either. The streets are quite deserted. But I think this is climate driven - when half the year is too hot and humid to linger outside. To be fair, Shanghai has crazily hot summers but at least their summer is a few months shorter. I was sizzling under 37C in Shanghai last summer, and it wasn't anything atypical for their season either.
Futian perhaps yes (I wasn't talking about it though. I was talking about Houhai which is far more lively even though it's much more recent and far from complete as an area) but Zhujiang New Town not only gets lively in the evening but is a very well thought out and planned place. Perhaps you were there a few years back when it was a bit quiet on the ground level? You can see a typical situation there in the late hours of the day (from 2:00): https://youtu.be/-aKTu1DFhiM?t=2m1s. Mind you this is AFTER most office workers finish work.

There are dining options there (probably will be many more in the future as more projects get completed) and they are frequented by tourists and passers by (i.e. not only office workers). This is so because there are attractions throughout the place (not just waterfront) and it is well connected by transport links as well as easy pedestrian or car access. Compare that to Lujiazui where transport is patchy, no local light rail transit, less convenient pedestrian access. And there you go: you don't have many places to eat out and the whole place is somewhat deserted and unattractive for purposes other than going to work. While the opposite is much more true in Guangzhou Zhujiang CBD despite the entire development being much newer and still not complete.

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Old June 4th, 2015, 06:28 PM   #22436
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Futian perhaps yes (I wasn't talking about it though. I was talking about Houhai which is far more lively even though it's much more recent and far from complete as an area) but Zhujiang New Town not only gets lively in the evening but is a very well thought out and planned place. Perhaps you were there a few years back when it was a bit quiet on the ground level? You can see a typical situation there in the late hours of the day (from 2:00): https://youtu.be/-aKTu1DFhiM?t=2m1s. Mind you this is AFTER most office workers finish work.

There are dining options there (probably will be many more in the future as more projects get completed) and they are frequented by tourists and passers by (i.e. not only office workers). This is so because there are attractions throughout the place (not just waterfront) and it is well connected by transport links as well as easy pedestrian or car access. Compare that to Lujiazui where transport is patchy, no local light rail transit, less convenient pedestrian access. And there you go: you don't have many places to eat out and the whole place is somewhat deserted and unattractive for purposes other than going to work. While the opposite is much more true in Guangzhou Zhujiang CBD despite the entire development being much newer and still not complete.
Actually, there is now a long pedestrian bridge stretching all the way from Oriental Pearl to SWFC (the last stretch from IFC out just opened last year), and it gets quite busy at night with people flowing through from the waterfront. 2 subway stations lie within walking distance from this new pedestrian corridor, which also connects to the large central park.

The key to a successful urban plan is mixed use, not how crowded it gets. Dhaka is crowded, but it is hardly a good example of good urban planning. Lujiazui is a mixed use community and its central axis is not a deserted wasteland after office hours. After all, the Bund looks quite good from the Pudong side at night, and the observation decks open late.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 06:56 PM   #22437
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Old June 4th, 2015, 07:06 PM   #22438
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Actually, there is now a long pedestrian bridge stretching all the way from Oriental Pearl to SWFC (the last stretch from IFC out just opened last year), and it gets quite busy at night with people flowing through from the waterfront. 2 subway stations lie within walking distance from this new pedestrian corridor, which also connects to the large central park.

The key to a successful urban plan is mixed use, not how crowded it gets. Dhaka is crowded, but it is hardly a good example of good urban planning. Lujiazui is a mixed use community and its central axis is not a deserted wasteland after office hours. After all, the Bund looks quite good from the Pudong side at night, and the observation decks open late.
The bridge was retrofitted and not built according to initial plan right? Also it is a... eh... bridge? Not quite the same as actual ground-level environment i.e. no easy access to nearby objects and attractions. It's perhaps better than what it was before but it is fundamentally not a problem solving solution.

I don't really get what point you are trying to make here regarding 'mixed use'? Both Lujiazui and Zhujiang CBD are all mixed-use and heavily surrounded by residential apartment towers so there isn't much difference in this respect. The difference is in planning practices and quality on the ground level and this is where the difference in liveliness and things like dining options on the street level come from in Lujiazui vs Zhujiang CBD. Have you actually been to Zhujiang New Town during the past year or so?

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Old June 4th, 2015, 07:23 PM   #22439
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Don't think Lujiazui is really planned to be a very active area at street level. (more like WTC - Wall Street in NY)

Areas like Xintiandi, Tianzifang, The Bund or Nanjing Road will always favor street life.
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Old June 4th, 2015, 08:50 PM   #22440
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