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Old October 1st, 2011, 06:54 PM   #8741
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Old October 1st, 2011, 06:55 PM   #8742
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Old October 1st, 2011, 06:56 PM   #8743
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Old October 1st, 2011, 06:56 PM   #8744
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Old October 1st, 2011, 07:00 PM   #8745
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Great photos! Shanghai's skyline really is spectacular, and the Shanghai Tower will make it even more so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by howelee View Post
Thinking about perspective, Shanghai Tower will probably appear to be smaller than the Oriental Pearl from that angle - Shanghai WFC already looks tiny next to it, and yet it's 24m taller than the Pearl!
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Old October 1st, 2011, 07:59 PM   #8746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post
Uh...

So half-built Lujiazui is singled out as emblematic of egotistical politicians and inept planners yet you don't see why a very high density area served by public transit will function?

Much of what you're saying is reflective of postmodern planning theory. Unfortunately postmodern planning theory is heavily influenced and promoted by the real estate industry. The real estate industry cares more about maximizing its profit and not about urban functionality as a whole. Thus it heavily stresses aesthetics (narrow streets and historicist streetside facades) while disregarding substantive factors like density, limiting sprawl, and public transit development. The next time anyone cites Lujiazui as emblematic of bad urban planning, think of the 100000X more common suburbia.
Lujiazui has come a long way from being half-built. Inside the Lujiazui Ring Road pretty much every plot has been or is being developed. Blank building facades and dead spaces will remain so unless there's a sea-change in planning approach. Worse still Lujiazui Park will still be inaccessible Dongyuan, Dongcheng or Dongtai Roads at street level.

While we are on about public transport, line 2 is clearly struggling to cope with the demand, and even line 14 when it's eventually built won't be enough. Also as stations are sparsely spaced out in Lujiazui, the long walk from the office to the station staring at blank walls after blank walls can get very miserable. Yes you need density for public transport to be viable, but good urban realm and ample capacity are absolutely essential for making it enticing for passengers.
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Old October 1st, 2011, 08:51 PM   #8747
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Shanghai is alive.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 01:02 AM   #8748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howelee View Post
This is the best view of Lujiazui, where the IFCs, Jinmao, SWFC and Shanghai tower arent stacking onto each other.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 08:58 AM   #8749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Lujiazui has come a long way from being half-built. Inside the Lujiazui Ring Road pretty much every plot has been or is being developed. Blank building facades and dead spaces will remain so unless there's a sea-change in planning approach. Worse still Lujiazui Park will still be inaccessible Dongyuan, Dongcheng or Dongtai Roads at street level.

While we are on about public transport, line 2 is clearly struggling to cope with the demand, and even line 14 when it's eventually built won't be enough. Also as stations are sparsely spaced out in Lujiazui, the long walk from the office to the station staring at blank walls after blank walls can get very miserable. Yes you need density for public transport to be viable, but good urban realm and ample capacity are absolutely essential for making it enticing for passengers.
There are a lot of blank facades, like on the sides of the megabuildings highrises.
I remember taking the line to Lujiazui and it took ages to walk to the SWFC (not sure if it's changed now).

Also here is a link to a thread about the density of Lujiazui and things we've discussed here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1430448
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 09:11 AM   #8750
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Jin Mao is really a master piece...

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Jinmao Tower in the Eye by fangweisoton, on Flickr
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 11:34 AM   #8751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
I can quote particlez post here, but please realise that Shanghai, as a whole, is very well planned and compact for its size. Lujiazui isn't in any way representable for the city as a whole. And to be honest, living in Shanghai with its fast-paced way of life, millions upon millions of people on the sidewalks, streets, subway escalators, smells and sounds everywhere etc., Lujiazui is a pretty nice break from all that. It is fairly calm and offers some of the most spectacular views (for skyscraper enthusiasts) anywhere on the planet.


Mind you, while Lujiazui may not be extremely vibrant, I can say that it has more people on its streets than most American cities' CBDs do, during most times of the day. And if you think Lujiazui is too calm, Puxi is a 3 minute metro ride away with some of the most crowded and busy streets on the planet.


So Lujiazui (tiny fraction of Shanghai's urban area) is objectively 'poor planning' while the sprawlburbs of NYC and elsewhere in the US is okay because "each to his own"? Shanghai is, in general, much better planned and more sustainable than New York is. Sure, the office buildings in tiny Lujiazui may not meet the streets in an optimal way, but accusing Shanghai of poor planning certainly isn't fair when the vast majority of the city is extremely urban, vibrant, walkable and lively.
You live in Shanghai? Awesome!! What is the vibrancy like around the Nanjing Rd area (not directly on it, but the streets around it that you don't see many photos of on the internet).

Also, may I ask have you visited Zhapu Lu ?? Heres a thread I started to ask a question on Zhapu Lu: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1446775
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 11:46 AM   #8752
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I love it.

However, with all of the problems emerging about China's rail projects, I hope that its towers are safe.
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 11:48 AM   #8753
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sadly it gets dwafed and blocked > jin mao
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 04:01 PM   #8754
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By me.





















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Old October 2nd, 2011, 04:04 PM   #8755
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Some really nice updates, Nordschleife!
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 05:28 PM   #8756
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wow!!!!!wow!!!!!
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:22 PM   #8757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoCoMilk View Post
Jin Mao is really a master piece...

image hosted on flickr

Jinmao Tower in the Eye by fangweisoton, on Flickr
oh God...
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Old October 2nd, 2011, 07:22 PM   #8758
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^Even the security cameras agree!
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:46 AM   #8759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoCoMilk View Post
Jin Mao is really a master piece...

image hosted on flickr

Jinmao Tower in the Eye by fangweisoton, on Flickr
I strongly agree! The facade and overall design of Jin Mao is absolutely breath taking! Shanghai's skyline is so impressive in the sense that all the buildings are so unique and different from a lot of other cities. Once S.T. is complete it might become my #1 of favorite skylines.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 08:08 AM   #8760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Lujiazui has come a long way from being half-built. Inside the Lujiazui Ring Road pretty much every plot has been or is being developed. Blank building facades and dead spaces will remain so unless there's a sea-change in planning approach. Worse still Lujiazui Park will still be inaccessible Dongyuan, Dongcheng or Dongtai Roads at street level.

While we are on about public transport, line 2 is clearly struggling to cope with the demand, and even line 14 when it's eventually built won't be enough. Also as stations are sparsely spaced out in Lujiazui, the long walk from the office to the station staring at blank walls after blank walls can get very miserable. Yes you need density for public transport to be viable, but good urban realm and ample capacity are absolutely essential for making it enticing for passengers.
Alright, another true believer of "aesthetics over pragmatism". And surprise surprise, it's you.

Lujiazui as it stands is far away from its final development. The whole postmodern urban planning arguments are almost solely based around streetside aesthetics and dismissing/ignoring density and transit, similar to Austrian school economics based around the ideal of "free markets" and ignoring empirical evidence. Focusing on specific issues like aesthetics or streetside pedestrian access without regard to context overlooks the ultimate challenge of present-day planning, allowing for functioning areas that are not car dependent.

But if you want to cite half-finished developments that were similarly criticized for:

-tall buildings
-difficult pedestrian access
-wide arterial roads that were difficult to cross,

you'd look at the redevelopment of Hong Kong's Central District in the 80s. It was initially seen as the spawn of Satan by various pundits.

Hong Kong's Central District is special because it's mature. When Central was redeveloped into a high-rise district, it WAS almost impossible to cross the arterials at street level and had monolithic brutalist/modernist aesthetics. Note to you: large, ultra high density areas will often need some grade separation between pedestrians, roads, and trains. You can't get around this. But no SANE person would now argue that Central is dysfunctional, as the gradual provision of pedestrian bridges and more comprehensive transit have allowed for its workers and hotel guests, etc. to circulate easily. It might not be pleasing to your aesthetic sensibilities but it works well.

Futian and Tianhe are a bit more mature than Lujiazui, and lie somewhere between Central and Lujiazui in terms of pedestrian convenience. Again, the various connectors haven't been completed. Unless the planners in Luziajui turn into complete retards, there's no reason to believe that Lujiazui will not progress in a similar fashion. Because the vast majority of Lujiazui's workers arrive via public transit, it makes absolute sense for the landlords to allow for easier pedestrian access. It doesn't matter if it's at grade or above, as the huge numbers of people make the added expense of a comprehensive elevated pedestrian network worthwhile from an economic pov. Rental values would increase for buildings that can be easily accessed by pedestrians.

Then you have humid cooling climates and the advantages of extra empty space for more ventilation/lower temperatures. Streetside ambient temperatures and particulate measurements in Puxi are quite a bit higher than in Lujiazui. It's not a big deal in England, but it helps a lot in the heat and humidity elsewhere.

Or you could continue to cite some idealized gingerbread aesthetics as evidence of "urbanity". Sadly people lap this up. Thus they end up paying for disneyesque suburban houses with cutesy facades which nevertheless are car dependent. You see the irony of citing Lujiazui for its lack of urbanity, while overlooking "urban looking" places which don't FUNCTION properly? Cause the latter is objectively more harmful, and it's maybe 10000X as prevalent as Lujiazui.

Last edited by particlez; October 3rd, 2011 at 08:26 AM. Reason: doubled paragraph
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