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Old January 9th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #9681
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Think before speaking. What has Chongqing to offer in terms of international standard that Shanghai hasnt? Shanghai is a world center of finance, entertainment and culture. You say Shanghai is as dense as any other major city? I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever lived in Shanghai at all or just stayed at some gnarly hotel in Lujiazui. The latter seems more reliable in your case.

Shanghai isnt dense, but it basically has skyscrapers everywhere (not just in Lujiazui) which is very unusual for "any other" city. It has a huge amount of famous landmarks so I dont know where you're getting this whole "identity crisis" from. It's identity and history is superb.
You misunderstood me...I'm NOT saying Chongqing is more "international." I'm saying the developmental style in ChongQing is much more cohesive than certain areas in Shanghai. I agree, that that is only my opinion. I wasn't trying to say it is "FACT."

But you mashed that together with my OTHER point; Shanghai is still creating an identity. I'm not talking about history...or having historical elements. I'm talking about a city that doesn't seem to have carved a definite place for itself yet (in terms of international space). I'm not bashing the city...jesus. But literally every young Chinese kid I speak with, doesn't view Shanghai in that way yet...it has opportunities, but it's missing a lot of cultural (mostly because Beijing gobbles all that up). And no, I'm not saying it has NO culture...

And no, actually, I didn't live in a "gnarly hotel" in LJZ...I lived in a normal apartment in Yangpu. Shanghai is dense...There are probably more people in Yangpu, than in my entire STATE in the US. I don't know why we associate huge high rises with density...Nor does "density" mean that buildings are COMPLETELY sandwiched together.
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Old January 9th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #9682
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Old January 9th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #9683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
You misunderstood me...I'm NOT saying Chongqing is more "international." I'm saying the developmental style in ChongQing is much more cohesive than certain areas in Shanghai. I agree, that that is only my opinion. I wasn't trying to say it is "FACT."

But you mashed that together with my OTHER point; Shanghai is still creating an identity. I'm not talking about history...or having historical elements. I'm talking about a city that doesn't seem to have carved a definite place for itself yet (in terms of international space). I'm not bashing the city...jesus. But literally every young Chinese kid I speak with, doesn't view Shanghai in that way yet...it has opportunities, but it's missing a lot of cultural (mostly because Beijing gobbles all that up). And no, I'm not saying it has NO culture...

And no, actually, I didn't live in a "gnarly hotel" in LJZ...I lived in a normal apartment in Yangpu. Shanghai is dense...There are probably more people in Yangpu, than in my entire STATE in the US. I don't know why we associate huge high rises with density...Nor does "density" mean that buildings are COMPLETELY sandwiched together.
Chongqing's skyline only looks good because of its steepy terrain. If the land was flat like Shanghai they would never have built the buildings to close to each other.

Shanghai is not creating an identity, it is reclaiming and rebuilding its past identity as the center of Asia. It is an extremely international city, almost on the same level as Hong Kong (even though I hate that comparison). It's no coincidence that Shanghai has far more professional overseas expats than Beijing, the whole city is basically one big concession. At the same time, Shanghai's culture is thriving outside its gated communities. What has Beijing to offer except more underground rock bands? Nothing.

BTW, it would be quite interesting to hear where your Chinese friends are from.
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Old January 9th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #9684
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Old January 9th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #9685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganghui View Post
Chongqing's skyline only looks good because of its steepy terrain. If the land was flat like Shanghai they would never have built the buildings to close to each other.

Shanghai is not creating an identity, it is reclaiming and rebuilding its past identity as the center of Asia. It is an extremely international city, almost on the same level as Hong Kong (even though I hate that comparison). It's no coincidence that Shanghai has far more professional overseas expats than Beijing, the whole city is basically one big concession. At the same time, Shanghai's culture is thriving outside its gated communities. What has Beijing to offer except more underground rock bands? Nothing.

BTW, it would be quite interesting to hear where your Chinese friends are from.

Shanghai sure is getting more and more populair here. I just found out that FIVE of my friends (from Amsterdam) will al be in Shanghai at the SAME time and we didn't even plan it together.

Some are going for work, others for an internship or school. I guess it's a good excuse to join them
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Old January 9th, 2012, 08:54 PM   #9686
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Sanghai crece cada día!!!

Me gusta la Sanghai Tower!
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Old January 10th, 2012, 04:19 AM   #9687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganghui
Chongqing's skyline only looks good because of its steepy terrain. If the land was flat like Shanghai they would never have built the buildings to close to each other.

Shanghai is not creating an identity, it is reclaiming and rebuilding its past identity as the center of Asia. It is an extremely international city, almost on the same level as Hong Kong (even though I hate that comparison). It's no coincidence that Shanghai has far more professional overseas expats than Beijing, the whole city is basically one big concession. At the same time, Shanghai's culture is thriving outside its gated communities. What has Beijing to offer except more underground rock bands? Nothing.

BTW, it would be quite interesting to hear where your Chinese friends are from.
Sichuan, Hebei, GuangDong, Heilongjiang...they don't hate Shanghai, just aren't completely giddy about it (not like I'd imagine similar aged kids in the US to be about New York)

I'm not saying Shanghai has no international appeal, just that it has not completely reached the highest level (London, Tokyo, Seoul) yet. Also, the city is very (relative to others in the country) young, and I think in the near future we'll see it reach its potential.

I'm aware of Shanghai's history, but take, for instance, the fact that there are about 2 million foreign residents in Korea, whereas China only has an expat community of 1 million...(that's the total number in Seoul alone)

Okay, pointless figure, right? I agree, the significance isn't in the direct comparison of the numbers (one is bigger/better than the other), but the implication. Given the attention the Chinese market (Shanghai) has been getting, that number should, and will be, much larger. Especially when you remember the huge difference in populations (ie market size) between Korea and China.

Based upon this, I don't consider Shanghai to have reached it's potential yet, as I don't think it has passed this threshold (it's not completely "open," which is important in an INTERNATIONAL city). Most of that has to do with visa policy (it's virtually impossible to become a permanent resident in China) and the fact that the government, for good reason, is putting a tight[er in comparison to other world cities] cap on the inflow of foreign professionals.

And my point about Beijing is that it has a habit of snatching up all the big cultural venues...there's no large, comprehensive, art galleries, museums, etc. in Shanghai.

I guess, I'm thinking of "international" in terms of the character of the city, not purely economic terms. So, in my humble opinion, I consider Shanghai to be a "World City" but not yet an" international" one (or, maybe the problem is that I'm differentiating those two terms? ). Shanghai has already reached the economic goal, but it's still grasping for the former.

Anyways, I'm excited for this building, love Shanghai, and didn't mean to get off topic.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 05:50 AM   #9688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
whereas China only has an expat community of 1 million...(that's the total number in Seoul alone)

"As of June 2011, 281,780 foreigners were located in Seoul. Of them, 186,631 foreigners (66%) were People's Republic of China citizens of Korean ethnicity ...[...]... The next largest group consisted of PRC citizens who are not of Korean ethnicity; 29,901 of them resided in Seoul. The next highest group consisted of the 9,999 United States citizens."
Wikipedia

Almost 80% of the 281,780 foreigners (you can hardly include these in the 'expat community') in Seoul are Chinese people. The vast majority of these have migrated for ethnic reasons (being of Korean ethnicity), and as they really are Korean-- they may not even be considered 'foreigners' in the first place. And a large chunk of the remaining ~65,000 are probably not 'expats' either. Hong Kong (the Indonesian and Philippino maids alone may outnumber the total number of foreigners in Seoul) , Singapore, Shanghai and Tokyo have the largest expat communities in Asia. That 1 million figure for Seoul is ludicrous.

I would go as far to say that there are more Koreans, Japanese and Taiwanese alone in Shanghai than the total amount of foreigners in Seoul. There might even be more Taiwanese people in Shanghai than the total amount of foreigners in Seoul as there are figures stating that as much as 5%, or 1.2 million, of the Taiwanese population live in the PRC-- most in the YRD (Shanghai metro) and the Fujian province. On top of this you have a massive European and North American presence, as well as tens of thousands of Africans, Russians, Central Asians and South East Asians.

I agree though that Shanghai definitely has yet to reach its full potential.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 06:41 AM   #9689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
"As of June 2011, 281,780 foreigners were located in Seoul. Of them, 186,631 foreigners (66%) were People's Republic of China citizens of Korean ethnicity ...[...]... The next largest group consisted of PRC citizens who are not of Korean ethnicity; 29,901 of them resided in Seoul. The next highest group consisted of the 9,999 United States citizens."
Wikipedia

Almost 80% of the 281,780 foreigners (you can hardly include these in the 'expat community') in Seoul are Chinese people. The vast majority of these have migrated for ethnic reasons (being of Korean ethnicity), and as they really are Korean-- they may not even be considered 'foreigners' in the first place. And a large chunk of the remaining ~65,000 are probably not 'expats' either. Hong Kong (the Indonesian and Philippino maids alone may outnumber the total number of foreigners in Seoul) , Singapore, Shanghai and Tokyo have the largest expat communities in Asia. That 1 million figure for Seoul is ludicrous.

I would go as far to say that there are more Koreans, Japanese and Taiwanese alone in Shanghai than the total amount of foreigners in Seoul. There might even be more Taiwanese people in Shanghai than the total amount of foreigners in Seoul as there are figures stating that as much as 5%, or 1.2 million, of the Taiwanese population live in the PRC-- most in the YRD (Shanghai metro) and the Fujian province. On top of this you have a massive European and North American presence, as well as tens of thousands of Africans, Russians, Central Asians and South East Asians.

I agree though that Shanghai definitely has yet to reach its full potential.
Well there you go, I must have remembered that data incorrectly. There is so much information, much of conflicting, that I can't keep track sometimes...

I wasn't trying to say there aren't a lot of foreigners in Shanghai, just that they are usually not permanent residents, and that they still constitute a small portion of the city's population and so seem to not yet have contributed a lot to certain aspects of city life (dining, cultural venues, etc).

*Now I'm really curious to remember why I thought there was 1 million in Seoul...so weird. But yeah, most of them ARE Chinese, I'll give you that.
**Edit: I see what happened, I confused the numbers in my memory it's 1 million total in Korea, and like 250,000 in Seoul.

But I hope my reasoning still makes some sense? Just that I don't think Shanghai has reached the point where it needs to to be international (mostly in openness and being shaped more by international forces). So it seems I just made the mistake of separating the idea of a "world city" and an "international city." So from now on, I will just think of it as the latter, since it clearly is (even by my OWN definition).

See? This is why these discussions are helpful, I learned a lesson today.

Last edited by phoenixboi08; January 10th, 2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #9690
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3% of the population of Korea is foriegn born.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #9691
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Why does places like Shanghai need to be International? Why can't it just thrive on its own. The last thing we need in this world is another over-rated stereotyped city to pop up and annoy us.

All this London, Paris, Tokyo thing is so yesterday.......

I'm not saying the cities themselves are dated, but the why they have been represented in the international media is so revolting. I'd hate to see Shanghai be added to that list.

Shanghai should head towards the Hong Kong, Singapore type status. They are popular, outstanding, industrious yet aren't thrown in our face.

I hope you guys get what I mean. Trying to manufacture yet another International cityis dated and is not what we need. People should go to Shanghai for the Shanghai stuff and nothing else.

They don't need foreigners to make it international. It just needs to stand out on its own!!!!
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Old January 10th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #9692
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Well, Singapore is highly international, and has a foreign population of like 40%. It is certainly the model contemporary international city (as is Melbourne, where I live-- a great city but there certainly isn't anything unique in terms of culture or style).

I'd rather Shanghai go the way of Tokyo (or Seoul for that matter) and stay unique and Chinese whilst adopting successful aspects from elsewhere.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #9693
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Out of the current population of Shanghai, how many are:
native Wu speakers?
Mandarin speaking aliens from China?
aliens speaking Chinese languages other than Wu or Mandarin (i. e. Min, Cantonese etc.)?
aliens speaking tongues of non-Chinese people native to China?
aliens from outside China?
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Old January 10th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #9694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Out of the current population of Shanghai, how many are:
native Wu speakers?
Mandarin speaking aliens from China?
aliens speaking Chinese languages other than Wu or Mandarin (i. e. Min, Cantonese etc.)?
aliens speaking tongues of non-Chinese people native to China?
aliens from outside China?
wikipedia says: 98.8% Of Shanghai's residents are of the Han Chinese ethnicity, while 1.2% belong to various minority groups.

so I guess it's mostly han chinese.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 06:26 PM   #9695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post

I'd rather Shanghai go the way of Tokyo (or Seoul for that matter) and stay unique and Chinese whilst adopting successful aspects from elsewhere.
You have Beijing to go the way of Tokyo or Seoul as a uniquely modern Chinese city. Shanghai was founded as a foreign concession and it would only make sense for it to go the way of Hong Kong/Singapore, or possibly even New York. I mean New York has to be by far the most un-American city in the U.S.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #9696
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So I guess the sock consumption is a no go.
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Old January 10th, 2012, 08:17 PM   #9697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepblue01
Why does places like Shanghai need to be International? Why can't it just thrive on its own. The last thing we need in this world is another over-rated stereotyped city to pop up and annoy us.

All this London, Paris, Tokyo thing is so yesterday.......

I'm not saying the cities themselves are dated, but the why they have been represented in the international media is so revolting. I'd hate to see Shanghai be added to that list.

Shanghai should head towards the Hong Kong, Singapore type status. They are popular, outstanding, industrious yet aren't thrown in our face.

I hope you guys get what I mean. Trying to manufacture yet another International cityis dated and is not what we need. People should go to Shanghai for the Shanghai stuff and nothing else.

They don't need foreigners to make it international. It just needs to stand out on its own!!!!
I don't know why a city having foreigners makes it gentrified or lacking in terms of cultural integrity.

My point is that if Shanghai wants to become an international city, it's got a ways to go...mainly by addressing this idea of foreigners being a threat...or a bad thing.

I don't think any city NEEDS foreigners, but if you want to build an international city, you obviously need an open environment in which everyone (whether Chinese or not) can engage. The idea of a city being international just engenders some idea of it being mobile as opposed to static, and able to be forward thinking (as a result of having a large cross-section of ideas flowing freely)

Hong Kong is like THE epitome of an international city....it's an expat haven.
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Old January 11th, 2012, 02:38 AM   #9698
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Can we take this of topic stuff somewhere else, it's really getting annoying for people like me who come here for thinking theres updates but instead we see this shit

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Old January 11th, 2012, 05:57 AM   #9699
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Seems that a Saudi Company (Saudi Shanhae Center) will build 280m twins close to ST. I'll try and post more info later. Anybody else confirm?
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Old January 11th, 2012, 09:17 AM   #9700
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Seems that a Saudi Company (Saudi Shanhae Center) will build 280m twins close to ST. I'll try and post more info later. Anybody else confirm?
I guess you mean developers and investors of those buildings are from Saudi Arabia?
Haha, for a while I was thinking a Saudi construction company would be responsible for construction. It would be really interesting if a foreign company takes up the heavy duty, since China already has great construction infrastructures and and lots of construction companies are really experienced in large projects. A foreign architecture firm wouldn't be a surprise but certainly not from Saudi Arabia.
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