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Old January 9th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #13421
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Old January 9th, 2013, 11:37 AM   #13422
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Oh boy here comes the doomsdayers. They fixed the problem.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 11:44 AM   #13423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
It probably has more to do with general approach to urban planning in China than just soil condition in Shanghai. Shenzhen which has ideal conditions for any kind of highrise construction is not as dense as, Manhattan either (albeit probably denser than Lujiazui in comparable locations).

We did have this discussion numerous times already. It has to do with ideology of urban planning and in my view Chinese are doing the right thing unlike some countries in the West (in particular US and UK).
Wait a minute. The US is even more spread out than China! The only difference is that NY was laid out before the automobile became a huge mode of transport. LJZ is no different in layout than downtown Houston. Bot are a travesty. Not every building is a monument, nor should they be planned out that way. I just got back from Dubai, that place is even worse! But at least they have the cheap oil and lack of population do build like that.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 11:46 AM   #13424
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Oh boy here comes the doomsdayers. They fixed the problem.
Yes i knew, but i posted this because of some posts before.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 12:31 PM   #13425
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Quote:
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Wait a minute. The US is even more spread out than China! The only difference is that NY was laid out before the automobile became a huge mode of transport. LJZ is no different in layout than downtown Houston. Bot are a travesty. Not every building is a monument, nor should they be planned out that way. I just got back from Dubai, that place is even worse! But at least they have the cheap oil and lack of population do build like that.
China is not spread out. While it is one of the largest nations in the world by area, 1.1 billion people live in 27% of the land mass. Its functional density where most people live is 389.7.

Every km there is a new village, every 30 km a new small town of 40k, every 80km a city of 200k to 800k, and so on. There is no 'open space' until you get west of Langzhou, north of Haerbin, Inner Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, etc.

22 eastern provinces contain 1.02 billion people on 2,596,060 km² (27% of the country) for a density of 389.7/km². The closer one gets to the east or south east or coasts, the denser it becomes.

This area is about the same size as the USA east of the Mississippi River. This is a density similar to that of The Netherlands 405.7/km².

Europe has a density of about 31.9/km² with Russia, 75/km² without.
The USA as a whole is (34/km²), the lower 48 minus Alaska and Hawai'i is 40/km²

Put another way China has a density that is exceeded only by these European countries or territories:

Monaco Monaco: Density of population 15 269.5 /km²
Gibraltar Gibraltar: Density of population 2 895.6
Malta Malta: Density of population 1 276.0
Guernsey Guernsey: Density of population 834.2
Jersey Jersey: Density of population 811.7
San Marino San Marino: Density of population 530.3

In the USA only Puerto Rico, the District of Columbia and New Jersey exceed this density figure of 389/km².

-- District of Columbia[4] 10,065 inhabitants per square mile (3,886 /km2)
01 New Jersey 1,189 inhabitants per square mile (459 /km2)
-- Puerto Rico 1,082 inhabitants per square mile (418 /km2)
02 Rhode Island 1,006 inhabitants per square mile (388 /km2)

The USA Northeast MegaCity is only 359.6/km², less than China and it is a small area in relation to the rest of the USA. This area already has the best and fastest HSR for the USA.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #13426
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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #13427
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OMG
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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #13428
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WHAT THE.....
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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #13429
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lol bad quality, but i think its pretty interesting perspective nonetheless D:

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Old January 9th, 2013, 06:01 PM   #13430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Severiano View Post

Wait a minute. The US is even more spread out than China! The only difference is that NY was laid out before the automobile became a huge mode of transport. LJZ is no different in layout than downtown Houston. Bot are a travesty. Not every building is a monument, nor should they be planned out that way. I just got back from Dubai, that place is even worse! But at least they have the cheap oil and lack of population do build like that.
If there is a great example of extreme opposites of urban planning then it must be China and US. It's nonsensical to put them as having anything in common. I don't mean just some isolated areas which may look similar on the surface in some ways but the entire ideology and direction of the urban planning as a whole.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 06:17 PM   #13431
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Not necessarily. I mean, sure, it's simple to just think of sprawl as tract homes, strip malls, and the kinds of places where you must drive, but that's not really useful in trying to really understand what sprawl (and density) is.

For instance, why can a city like LA be considered sprawling but a city like Beijing or Shanghai can't? All three have many characteristics which we'd attribute to sprawl.

And that is a question...not a statement. I really don't know the answer.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 07:23 PM   #13432
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Have you got a bigger size of this photo?



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Old January 9th, 2013, 07:37 PM   #13433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Severiano View Post
Wait a minute. The US is even more spread out than China! The only difference is that NY was laid out before the automobile became a huge mode of transport. LJZ is no different in layout than downtown Houston. Bot are a travesty. Not every building is a monument, nor should they be planned out that way. I just got back from Dubai, that place is even worse! But at least they have the cheap oil and lack of population do build like that.

You're comparing Lujiazui to downtown Houston? Based on what? Towers? Roads? That's like saying Abe Lincoln and Osama are alike because of their beards. Might as well say Shanghai's subway system closely resembles Houston's lone light rail line. Then somehow Dubai is fit into your non-argument?

Considering Shanghai proper has the population density of Manhattan and the populated areas of the urbanized outer districts are only marginally less dense, no SANE person will take your argument seriously.

The weak accusation of China's development emulating autocentric US development is so 2002.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 07:43 PM   #13434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Not necessarily. I mean, sure, it's simple to just think of sprawl as tract homes, strip malls, and the kinds of places where you must drive, but that's not really useful in trying to really understand what sprawl (and density) is.

For instance, why can a city like LA be considered sprawling but a city like Beijing or Shanghai can't? All three have many characteristics which we'd attribute to sprawl.

And that is a question...not a statement. I really don't know the answer.

The traditional definition of urbanity is composed of three factors: population density, access to public transit, and building typology. Thus ideally you'd want high densities, money put into public transit, and various amenities (which more or less comes naturally with higher densities).

Unfortunately many "urbanists" are bankrolled by sprawl profiteers and have ignored empirical evidence and instead have focused on a narrow definition of urbanity. LA's urbanized area is one hell of a lot larger than Beijing or Shanghai. You're also much more dependent on a car than in either place. There is also ongoing investment to extend functional mass transit to the outlying reaches of Beijing and Shanghai, there's no way anyone can live in Moreno Valley or Oxnard and not be dependent on the car.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #13435
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by Tianchi
Oh, that's cool
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Old January 9th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #13436
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Well, those workers in SIFC will have a clear view on the sky gardens.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 01:44 AM   #13437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez View Post

The traditional definition of urbanity is composed of three factors: population density, access to public transit, and building typology. Thus ideally you'd want high densities, money put into public transit, and various amenities (which more or less comes naturally with higher densities).

Unfortunately many "urbanists" are bankrolled by sprawl profiteers and have ignored empirical evidence and instead have focused on a narrow definition of urbanity. LA's urbanized area is one hell of a lot larger than Beijing or Shanghai. You're also much more dependent on a car than in either place. There is also ongoing investment to extend functional mass transit to the outlying reaches of Beijing and Shanghai, there's no way anyone can live in Moreno Valley or Oxnard and not be dependent on the car.
That's my point I guess... I think people use "density" in tandem for other things which confuses the whole conversation.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 04:56 AM   #13438
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Thats a great panorama! its almost as tall as the SWFC!
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Old January 10th, 2013, 06:19 AM   #13439
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anyone can show whats photo result that he was took it??
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Old January 10th, 2013, 07:05 AM   #13440
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Quote:
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You're comparing Lujiazui to downtown Houston? Based on what? Towers? Roads? That's like saying Abe Lincoln and Osama are alike because of their beards. Might as well say Shanghai's subway system closely resembles Houston's lone light rail line. Then somehow Dubai is fit into your non-argument?

Considering Shanghai proper has the population density of Manhattan and the populated areas of the urbanized outer districts are only marginally less dense, no SANE person will take your argument seriously.

The weak accusation of China's development emulating autocentric US development is so 2002.
Try to go for a walk around Lujiazui, its miserable. Wanna snack, too bad go to the mall. Convenient store, B3 JinMao. You are right that the layout of Pudong is not as car-friendly as the US, but it is not as Pedestrian friendly as other urban areas namely Puxi across the river. It isn't walkable, but it doesn't have as much parking as Atlanta. It is the worst of both worlds. LJZ has almost no street side retail, the streets are difficult to cross, each building is on its own plot, all entrances are surrounded by little planters with flowers. If they aren't building for cars, what are they building for?
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