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Old January 10th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #13441
drunkenmunkey888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Severiano View Post
Try to go for a walk around Lujiazui, its miserable. Wanna snack, too bad go to the mall. Convenient store, B3 JinMao. You are right that the layout of Pudong is not as car-friendly as the US, but it is not as Pedestrian friendly as other urban areas namely Puxi across the river. It isn't walkable, but it doesn't have as much parking as Atlanta. It is the worst of both worlds. LJZ has almost no street side retail, the streets are difficult to cross, each building is on its own plot, all entrances are surrounded by little planters with flowers. If they aren't building for cars, what are they building for?
Eh, it's probably just a modernized version of ancient chinese city planning. If you look at pre-Song dynasty cities, you can see where post-reform chinese cities get their roots. Now i can't say that there is a conscious effort to revive pre-Song city planning, but there are a lot of parallels. Take Tang Chang'an for instance. Notice that it is full of impossibly wide roads, some that are over a hundred (feet or meters i can't recall) wide. For a pre-industrial city, that was probably as inconvenient as modern Lujiazui or Beijing roads are today. Also pre-Song cities had blocks of massive walled complexes much like today's walled apartment compounds. The narrow streets of what is popularly considered traditional chinese cities were only a result of the center of chinese civilization having been forced southward by the Jurchens. They needed to adapt to more mountainous terrain crossed by a multitude of rivers and constrained by heavily wooded landscapes. They could no longer build the vast, wide, and pedestrian unfriendly cities that were prevalent when the chinese civilization was centered in the open central china plain.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 10:12 AM   #13442
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Thats a great panorama! its almost as tall as the SWFC!
At least the top of the cranes
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Old January 10th, 2013, 10:51 AM   #13443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Severiano View Post
Try to go for a walk around Lujiazui, its miserable. Wanna snack, too bad go to the mall. Convenient store, B3 JinMao. You are right that the layout of Pudong is not as car-friendly as the US, but it is not as Pedestrian friendly as other urban areas namely Puxi across the river. It isn't walkable, but it doesn't have as much parking as Atlanta. It is the worst of both worlds. LJZ has almost no street side retail, the streets are difficult to cross, each building is on its own plot, all entrances are surrounded by little planters with flowers. If they aren't building for cars, what are they building for?
Luckily I'm familiar with the places you've cited. Your comparison makes as much sense as Abe Lincoln to Osama, or maybe Precious to Beyonce? They both have ovaries!

The funny thing is; you could have easily compared Shanghai to Hong Kong and Singapore, as their skybridges, PT investment, relatively open street level space, and density are much more similar to those of Shanghai. Strangely both these cities were singled out in the 80s for being pedestrian hostile, as their infrastructure was halfway finished.

Plus in humid cooling climates, it actually makes sense to leave space between buildings (the opposite of wanting tightly compact spaces to preserve heat in heating climates). Or you can check out various textbooks and their psychrometric charts.

One of the funny things is; both downtown Houston and downtown Atlanta have very impressive architecture. But their compromised "urbanity" isn't due to what you've cited, but are dysfunctional because of a lack of PT investment, very low density suburbs, and a general car dependence. Yeah, you don't mention these things, do you?

Since you've pressed ahead with your (idiotic) comparison based on "feeling", let's throw out some FACTS. You do realize Lujiazui's subway connections aren't complete? You do realize Lujiazui's elevated pedestrian network isn't complete? You do realize both its rail transit and its pedestrian skybridges are constantly being built? Houston has a light rail line, and Atlanta to its credit actually has a subway. What proportion of commuters in these cities use public transit? Are resources poured into upgrading their subways? Then it comes to density; how many residences in Shanghai are single-family like in Atlanta or Houston? How many of these residences take up giant lots like they do in Atlanta or Houston? You just want to discuss some facts here.

But since your definition of urbanity sounds like something out of Disneyland, you could continue to ignore empirical evidence in your arguments.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:30 AM   #13444
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So I finally got around to seeing Skyfall earlier today, and the shots of Shanghai in the movie were simply beautiful. The scenes were filmed when ST were around half of Jin Mao's height, so most unfortunately, we don't get to see much of ST. But it was a pretty good movie, and if you guys haven't seen it yet, I recommend you do so, and see those beautiful shots of this beautiful city.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 11:34 AM   #13445
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Hong Kong as dense as Lujiazui? Central the HK equivalent is way more dense save for the waterfront. I do disagree with the walkways in HK, I think it should be on the street. You can compare the Suburbs of HK to Lujiazui. I can't speak for Singapore because I have never been there.

The subway connections are terrible, the walk from exit 6 at Lujiazui station takes you to a mall full of overpriced Japanese food. out to a sidewalk next to a highway, down a then you have to cross a huge empty street with rounded curves( which don't make drivers slow down) then a park (its a construction site now, whatever they put there will probably suck, then to Jin Mao and the Shanghai tower. Oh BTW those walkways were not part of the initail plan, thats why they stick out like a sore thumb, they were decided on after planners realized what a mess they made. Wanna go to north or south Lujiazui? More walking along retailless streets, you can enjoy the flowers though.

You are looking at the plan from a birds angle, you need to look it from the persons angle. What do you see along the street, not what you see from the air. This I why I can walk from Xujiahui to Nanjing Road and not feel boared. I'm going places, there are things to see, I feel my own progress. You do not get this feeling when walking down century avenue. Yes I base this on feeling because I am human, I feel. Im not a communist robot.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #13446
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Severiano what makes you think that your feeling is somehow more important than my feeling or some other guy's feeling? That's a rather subjective measure of urban integrity and effectiveness.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #13447
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Lujiazui sucks, simple as that. People only go there, because they have to (i.e. for work). Puxi on the other hand rulez - dense, vibrant, lively, convenient. You just name it, Puxi's got it all.

Btw great progress here, now the hot phase begins where the tower is going to surpass SWFC.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #13448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK999 View Post
Lujiazui sucks, simple as that. People only go there, because they have to (i.e. for work). Puxi on the other hand rulez - dense, vibrant, lively, convenient. You just name it, Puxi's got it all.

Btw great progress here, now the hot phase begins where the tower is going to surpass SWFC.
That's rather strange because even late at night I was observing very busy environments in some parts of Lujiazui. Of course I have photos and videos too.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #13449
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2013.1.9 by butternbear

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Old January 10th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #13450
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GREAT SHOT FROM JINMAO TOWER
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Old January 10th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #13451
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image hosted on flickr


Marshall Strabala (above), Chief Architect of the Shanghai Tower, stands in front of the colossal facility in a photo published in That's Shanghai magazine (January 2013 edition) with a story profiling him called "Doyen of Design." When finished in late 2014, Shanghai Tower will be China's tallest building and the world's second tallest building. Strabala also is Founder and Design Partner of 2DEFINE Architecture, a global architectural firm with offices in Shanghai, Seoul and Chicago http://www.define-arch.com.

Read the story at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/archite...7623881091573/ or on That's Shanghai's website at: www.thatsmags.com/shanghai/article/view/11967

Last edited by ChicagoIcon; January 11th, 2013 at 09:38 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 08:12 AM   #13452
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I don't know why I check this everyday. I can see the damn thing from my office.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 08:57 AM   #13453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Severiano View Post
Hong Kong as dense as Lujiazui? Central the HK equivalent is way more dense save for the waterfront. I do disagree with the walkways in HK, I think it should be on the street. You can compare the Suburbs of HK to Lujiazui. I can't speak for Singapore because I have never been there.

The subway connections are terrible, the walk from exit 6 at Lujiazui station takes you to a mall full of overpriced Japanese food. out to a sidewalk next to a highway, down a then you have to cross a huge empty street with rounded curves( which don't make drivers slow down) then a park (its a construction site now, whatever they put there will probably suck, then to Jin Mao and the Shanghai tower. Oh BTW those walkways were not part of the initail plan, thats why they stick out like a sore thumb, they were decided on after planners realized what a mess they made. Wanna go to north or south Lujiazui? More walking along retailless streets, you can enjoy the flowers though.

You are looking at the plan from a birds angle, you need to look it from the persons angle. What do you see along the street, not what you see from the air. This I why I can walk from Xujiahui to Nanjing Road and not feel boared. I'm going places, there are things to see, I feel my own progress. You do not get this feeling when walking down century avenue. Yes I base this on feeling because I am human, I feel. Im not a communist robot.
I've walked around Lujiazui and can say I feel the same as you do. Hong Kong and Singapore much more warm and cozy for the pedestrian. I say give Lujaizui time because I doubt it will be the way it currently is forever. I can't wait for it to become almost as lively as Nanjing Rd....I say "almost" and maybe I'm dreaming here.

This is going to be a fun tower to visit. I'd love to sit and relax in one of the sky parks.
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Old January 11th, 2013, 10:03 AM   #13454
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On the subject of Strabala:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDc3OTMxMjI4.html
Someone linked this one before; an interview with a pretty dim Nancy Merrill.


And here's another interview from November:
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:19 PM   #13455
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I don't know why I check this everyday. I can see the damn thing from my office.
Which office are you in?
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Old January 11th, 2013, 03:24 PM   #13456
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To cut a long story short LA and Beijing are about the same size in terms of footprint. However LA has a small highrise centre and is surrounded by lowrise sprawl, whereas Beijing has a relatively lowrise, historic centre with accordant height regulations, surrounded by highrise sprawl. This is the doughnut effect. China doesnt have the McMansion style suburbs en masse yet - the 2000 newcomers each day have to be housed in highrises.
But that's what I'm getting at...I think when people say a city is "dense" (or, when they say a city "sprawls"), what they're saying by proxy is that that city is "tall" (or "lowrise"). It just seems to me this kind of ruins the discussion if you employ this kind of metric for it, no? What I mean, is that, when we talk about "density" some of us are talking about specific qualities that place it in category A and others are talking about specific qualities that differentiate it from category B. I'm not convinced the logic of both always lines up...I think we often have two distinct discussions going on: one about land use and the role of transport infrastructure and the other about what that development should look like.

Basically, I don't think we should necessarily employ the term "density" as some sort of antithesis of "sprawl": they can be mutually exclusive and often are.

If that makes sense at all...?

Though, I'm sure this is only a few posts away from getting blasted as off topic. But I do think this is really prescient...and fits in the broader topic and would appreciate it if it could on intermittently?
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Old January 12th, 2013, 07:21 AM   #13457
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By xsw999

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Old January 12th, 2013, 08:15 AM   #13458
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Nce wallpaper material
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Old January 12th, 2013, 09:43 AM   #13459
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Have you got a bigger size of this photo?



Here you go... enjoy...

By my selected memories-between east & west from flickr


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I love Beijing ChaoyangMen, Rising Skyscrapers beyond it!


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Old January 12th, 2013, 10:37 AM   #13460
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Are the cranes officially above the WFC?!
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