Michigan's brain drain may be only a 'myth'

Lmichigan · September 15th, 2006, 05:28 AM

Michigan's brain drain may be only a 'myth'

Many choosing to stay; others immigrating here

September 14, 2006

Special to the State Journal

If any college graduate could be expected to flee Michigan for a state such as California, it might be Cris Boyer.

Now 25 years old, the 2003 Michigan State University graduate creates video games, speaks Japanese and owns his own company. So what's he doing living in Metro Detroit instead of, say, Silicon Valley?

"I grew up around here," the Royal Oak native said last week. "I really like the area. And I work with a kids group here in the area, and that's something I really wouldn't want to leave."

Boyer's desire to live in Michigan, and similar choices by thousands of others, shows how complicated - and often how mistaken - the notion of a Michigan brain drain can be.

Despite real concerns that people, especially young people, are leaving Michigan, some demographers say the notion of a brain drain - a debilitating loss of educated people - has been oversold to an anxious public hammered by bad news about the automotive industry.

"It's certainly overblown, and to some extent has characteristics of a myth," said Jim Rogers, manager of data for the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, a regional planning agency.

But Michigan is hardly free from demographic worries. The state's population continues to grow more slowly than the nation as a whole.

The idea of a Michigan brain drain arose because, for many years, U.S. Census Bureau figures have shown more college graduates leave Michigan than move in from elsewhere in the country. The net outflow is particularly strong among younger residents.

But that's just part of the story.

Population rising

The state's population continues to increase, thanks to the natural birth rate and an influx of immigrants from overseas.

Perhaps even more important for the state's economic future, Michigan's population of college graduates has been increasing, not declining. Between 2001 and 2004, the Census Bureau's American Community Survey data showed a net increase of 35,700 people with a bachelor's degree or higher choosing to migrate to Michigan.

"Which is news to a lot of people," Rogers said. "That's not the conventional wisdom because this loss of college graduates through migration domestically has been so hyped."

Foreign immigration plays a big part: In terms of state-to-state migration, more college grads leave Michigan than arrive. But the rising number of educated immigrants - mainly men with mechanical engineering degrees tips the balance into the positive column

Many leaving

The brain drain idea has taken root in part because many young Michiganders do leave.

But sometimes, its advantages work in Michigan's favor.

"The cost of living is dramatically lower here than, say, San Francisco or Los Angeles or Seattle, the primary hubs of the industry," video-game creator Boyer said last week.

And sometimes, too, state loyalty plays a part.

Contact John Gallagher of the Detroit Free Press at (313) 222-5173 or gallagher@freepress.com.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/a...WS06/609140343

The anti-cheesehead · September 15th, 2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lmichigan

Foreign immigration plays a big part: In terms of state-to-state migration, more college grads leave Michigan than arrive. But the rising number of educated immigrants - mainly men with mechanical engineering degrees tips the balance into the positive column

I wonder how long the "balance" will stay in the positive column if we keep seeing headlines like

"Another day of pain at Ford
No. 2 automaker to hasten and expand plant closings, trim a third of white-collar jobs and suspend dividend; still, profitability pushed back, U.S. market share to fall behind Toyota."

http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

yeah, I know, Toyota has operations in Detroit, but it has nowhere near the presence that Ford has in Detroit. Toyota will not be hiring enough people in Detroit to compensate for the job losses at Ford and GM because a significant part of their engineering and research is still done in Japan, and that's not going to change.

Lmichigan · September 22nd, 2006, 08:12 AM

There really isn't much more to close, and the immigration is not going to slow down. In fact, it's only speeding up despite the bad manufacturing climate. I personally think we've seen our worst days, or at least very close to seeing them. It seems that every part of the economy put the manufacturing sector is growing. I don't expect the population to fall or even slow down any time soon.

With all of that said, there is no doubt that Michigan is still too reliant on manufacturing, but that's finally beginning to change. It's going to be a painful transition as we're being forced to do it instead of our former leaders having the foresight to try and head off some of the painful transition. But, in this global economy where manufacturing is shipping of blue collar jobs to cheaper areas, there isn't much you can do but watch those jobs be paired off, and hope the seeds you planted in the high tech industries bare fruit.

TroyBoy · September 24th, 2006, 07:17 AM

5 of my 6 cousinings in their 20's have moved out of state.

***i_am_hydrogen*** · September 24th, 2006, 07:43 AM

Aside from its indigenous population, Chicago is largely an amalgamation of people from various midwestern states. A considerable number of people in Chicago come from Michigan. If I had to guess, I'd say that Michigan ranks number one among midwestern states in terms of people who relocate to Chicago. Even Wisconsin and Indiana can't compare. There are so many bars that cater to Michigan football fans it borders on the ridiculous.

nic158 · September 24th, 2006, 06:08 PM

I was in chicago (downtown)for 3 days the other week and i noticed that. I saw more michigan shirts than illinios shirts.

Steely Dan · September 25th, 2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nic158

I was in chicago (downtown)for 3 days the other week and i noticed that. I saw more michigan shirts than illinios shirts.

part of that is the fact that illini football, the joke of the big 10, is an embarassment for the state of illinois. now, if you come back and visit during b-ball season..........

ColDayMan · September 25th, 2006, 02:38 AM

part of that is the fact that illini football, the joke of the big 10, is an embarassment for the state of illinois. now, if you come back and visit during b-ball season..........

Indiana U isn't exactly the Iowa of the Hoosier State either...

Michi · September 26th, 2006, 02:49 AM

I'd say about 1/2 the license plates on I-94 from the Chicago City line to the Michigan State line are Michigan plates...along with Indiana. Very few are Illinois. There are some instances where it seems like the majority are Michigan in Indiana.

Just goes to show what city is Michigan's REAL largest city.

Lmichigan · September 26th, 2006, 03:17 AM

It just goes to show who's the capital 'Big City' of the Great Lakes. There's no mystery.

ColDayMan · September 26th, 2006, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lmichigan

It just goes to show who's the capital 'Big City' of the Great Lakes. There's no mystery.

I wouldn't say that's true about the Lake Erie cities (Cleveland, Buffalo) as they tend to look towards New York City. But for the surrounding states of the Chicagoland (Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin), sure.

Steely Dan · September 26th, 2006, 06:16 AM

^ but new york city, as wonderful as it is, is not a great lakes city and therefore cannot be "the capital 'Big City' of the Great Lakes". chicago's only competition for that title lies across the border in ontario.

ColDayMan · September 26th, 2006, 07:47 AM

The thing is, Cleveland and Buffalo don't A). have competition as they are insular provincial centers and B). have a history with New York City moreso than simple lake geography. I never said Chicago wasn't the "unofficial capital of the Great Lakes" (as it is the largest city) but was just addressing the implication that many other Great Lakes cities go to Chicago for whatever (as indicated in Michi's posts about Michiganders going to Chicago/looking up to it [re: Michigan's REAL largest city]).

I was simply implying that Cleveland and Buffalo generally would look more towards New York City versus Chicago, which I presume is looked at more from the surrounding states. That isn't to say Ohioans don't go to Chicago (Ohioans go everywhere. Ask Phoenix).

Steely Dan · September 26th, 2006, 05:01 PM

^ yeah, i think we're talking past each other. i wasn't trying to say that chicago was the "big city" that all other great lakes city look to as "their" big city, just that it's the de facto capital city of great lakes due to it's size, at least on this side of the border. new york city simply can't be the "big city" for the great lakes because it ain't in the great lakes region. this is all self-evident stuff, i'm just repeating it for clarification.

also, i'd be interested in knowing if buffalonians actually look to NYC as their "big city" as opposed to toronto. from what i've been able to gather these forums, it seems like many buffalonians look at the big apple with some degree of scorn, while at the same time there seems to be a fair bit of interplay between buffalo and toronto (jays fans in buffalo, bills fans in toronto, etc.) despite the international border.

Michi · September 27th, 2006, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lmichigan

It just goes to show who's the capital 'Big City' of the Great Lakes. There's no mystery.

That's the same point I was making.

Michigan, sitting above (or separate) from the flow of all the surrounding states makes it so that Michiganders can go in any direction when they hit the state line. It seems as if there is the most connectivity to Chicagoland no matter what part of Michigan you are from. If not for the slice of Indiana, Chicago would just be a geographic extension of Michigan in which I-94 serves. This obviously isn't physically true, but I think the high Michigan embracing of Chicago shows that psychologically, Chicago is the largest city in Michigan and Detroit...maybe the largest in Essex County, Ontario? And you only go there to support your favorite Michigan sports team.

ColDayMan · September 27th, 2006, 02:00 AM

Well, I meant domestically. It's a no brainer that Buffalo's main "city" (if any exists) is Toronto.

Lmichigan · September 27th, 2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michi

That's the same point I was making.

Michigan, sitting above (or separate) from the flow of all the surrounding states makes it so that Michiganders can go in any direction when they hit the state line. It seems as if there is the most connectivity to Chicagoland no matter what part of Michigan you are from. If not for the slice of Indiana, Chicago would just be a geographic extension of Michigan in which I-94 serves. This obviously isn't physically true, but I think the high Michigan embracing of Chicago shows that psychologically, Chicago is the largest city in Michigan and Detroit...maybe the largest in Essex County, Ontario? And you only go there to support your favorite Michigan sports team.

I think you're kind of overplaying it. Chicago is a regional draw, no doubt, but Detroit still captures most of Michigan's theater and entertainment crowd.

hudkina · September 27th, 2006, 04:15 AM

If I'm not mistaken, Grand Rapids and even Kalamazoo follow the Detroit sports scene. I'm not sure about Benton Harbor though. Does anyone know whether they follow Detroit or Chicago or if the loyalty is split?

TroyBoy · September 27th, 2006, 04:24 AM

Most people live in southeast michigan anyways.

Michi · September 27th, 2006, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lmichigan

I think you're kind of overplaying it. Chicago is a regional draw, no doubt, but Detroit still captures most of Michigan's theater and entertainment crowd.

It's also heavily abandoned by them.

September 15th, 2006, 05:28 AM	#1
Lmichigan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 2,726 Likes (Received): 6	Michigan's brain drain may be only a 'myth' Michigan's brain drain may be only a 'myth' Many choosing to stay; others immigrating here September 14, 2006 Special to the State Journal If any college graduate could be expected to flee Michigan for a state such as California, it might be Cris Boyer. Now 25 years old, the 2003 Michigan State University graduate creates video games, speaks Japanese and owns his own company. So what's he doing living in Metro Detroit instead of, say, Silicon Valley? "I grew up around here," the Royal Oak native said last week. "I really like the area. And I work with a kids group here in the area, and that's something I really wouldn't want to leave." Boyer's desire to live in Michigan, and similar choices by thousands of others, shows how complicated - and often how mistaken - the notion of a Michigan brain drain can be. Despite real concerns that people, especially young people, are leaving Michigan, some demographers say the notion of a brain drain - a debilitating loss of educated people - has been oversold to an anxious public hammered by bad news about the automotive industry. "It's certainly overblown, and to some extent has characteristics of a myth," said Jim Rogers, manager of data for the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, a regional planning agency. But Michigan is hardly free from demographic worries. The state's population continues to grow more slowly than the nation as a whole. The idea of a Michigan brain drain arose because, for many years, U.S. Census Bureau figures have shown more college graduates leave Michigan than move in from elsewhere in the country. The net outflow is particularly strong among younger residents. But that's just part of the story. Population rising The state's population continues to increase, thanks to the natural birth rate and an influx of immigrants from overseas. Perhaps even more important for the state's economic future, Michigan's population of college graduates has been increasing, not declining. Between 2001 and 2004, the Census Bureau's American Community Survey data showed a net increase of 35,700 people with a bachelor's degree or higher choosing to migrate to Michigan. "Which is news to a lot of people," Rogers said. "That's not the conventional wisdom because this loss of college graduates through migration domestically has been so hyped." Foreign immigration plays a big part: In terms of state-to-state migration, more college grads leave Michigan than arrive. But the rising number of educated immigrants - mainly men with mechanical engineering degrees tips the balance into the positive column Many leaving The brain drain idea has taken root in part because many young Michiganders do leave. But sometimes, its advantages work in Michigan's favor. "The cost of living is dramatically lower here than, say, San Francisco or Los Angeles or Seattle, the primary hubs of the industry," video-game creator Boyer said last week. And sometimes, too, state loyalty plays a part. Contact John Gallagher of the Detroit Free Press at (313) 222-5173 or gallagher@freepress.com. http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/a...WS06/609140343

September 22nd, 2006, 08:12 AM	#3
Lmichigan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 2,726 Likes (Received): 6	There really isn't much more to close, and the immigration is not going to slow down. In fact, it's only speeding up despite the bad manufacturing climate. I personally think we've seen our worst days, or at least very close to seeing them. It seems that every part of the economy put the manufacturing sector is growing. I don't expect the population to fall or even slow down any time soon. With all of that said, there is no doubt that Michigan is still too reliant on manufacturing, but that's finally beginning to change. It's going to be a painful transition as we're being forced to do it instead of our former leaders having the foresight to try and head off some of the painful transition. But, in this global economy where manufacturing is shipping of blue collar jobs to cheaper areas, there isn't much you can do but watch those jobs be paired off, and hope the seeds you planted in the high tech industries bare fruit. Last edited by Lmichigan; September 22nd, 2006 at 08:19 AM.

September 24th, 2006, 07:17 AM	#4
TroyBoy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 793 Likes (Received): 0	5 of my 6 cousinings in their 20's have moved out of state. __________________ OMG!!! ACH NEIN!!! DER ERLKONIG KOMMET I GET HIGH OFF OF BEING HIGH

September 26th, 2006, 02:49 AM	#9
Michi about Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Central Detroit Posts: 846 Likes (Received): 0	I'd say about 1/2 the license plates on I-94 from the Chicago City line to the Michigan State line are Michigan plates...along with Indiana. Very few are Illinois. There are some instances where it seems like the majority are Michigan in Indiana. Just goes to show what city is Michigan's REAL largest city. __________________ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ You are not the poo. I am!* ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~*^~

September 26th, 2006, 06:16 AM	#12
Steely Dan facist lord of the cosmos Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: old style city Posts: 2,598 Likes (Received): 5	^ but new york city, as wonderful as it is, is not a great lakes city and therefore cannot be "the capital 'Big City' of the Great Lakes". chicago's only competition for that title lies across the border in ontario. __________________ "I wish they'd hurry up and just destroy humanity already........... it's the waiting that I can't stand" - Philip J. Fry Last edited by Steely Dan; September 26th, 2006 at 06:33 AM.

September 24th, 2006, 07:43 AM	#5
*i_am_hydrogen* muted Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago Posts: 7,192 Likes (Received): 8	Aside from its indigenous population, Chicago is largely an amalgamation of people from various midwestern states. A considerable number of people in Chicago come from Michigan. If I had to guess, I'd say that Michigan ranks number one among midwestern states in terms of people who relocate to Chicago. Even Wisconsin and Indiana can't compare. There are so many bars that cater to Michigan football fans it borders on the ridiculous.

September 24th, 2006, 06:08 PM	#6
nic158 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: mke Posts: 138 Likes (Received): 0	I was in chicago (downtown)for 3 days the other week and i noticed that. I saw more michigan shirts than illinios shirts.

September 25th, 2006, 02:38 AM	#8
ColDayMan King of Flyover Country Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Columbus Posts: 974 Likes (Received): 0	part of that is the fact that illini football, the joke of the big 10, is an embarassment for the state of illinois. now, if you come back and visit during b-ball season.......... Indiana U isn't exactly the Iowa of the Hoosier State either...

September 26th, 2006, 03:17 AM	#10
Lmichigan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mid-Michigan Posts: 2,726 Likes (Received): 6	It just goes to show who's the capital 'Big City' of the Great Lakes. There's no mystery.

September 26th, 2006, 07:47 AM	#13
ColDayMan King of Flyover Country Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Columbus Posts: 974 Likes (Received): 0	The thing is, Cleveland and Buffalo don't A). have competition as they are insular provincial centers and B). have a history with New York City moreso than simple lake geography. I never said Chicago wasn't the "unofficial capital of the Great Lakes" (as it is the largest city) but was just addressing the implication that many other Great Lakes cities go to Chicago for whatever (as indicated in Michi's posts about Michiganders going to Chicago/looking up to it [re: Michigan's REAL largest city]). I was simply implying that Cleveland and Buffalo generally would look more towards New York City versus Chicago, which I presume is looked at more from the surrounding states. That isn't to say Ohioans don't go to Chicago (Ohioans go everywhere. Ask Phoenix).

September 26th, 2006, 05:01 PM	#14
Steely Dan facist lord of the cosmos Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: old style city Posts: 2,598 Likes (Received): 5	^ yeah, i think we're talking past each other. i wasn't trying to say that chicago was the "big city" that all other great lakes city look to as "their" big city, just that it's the de facto capital city of great lakes due to it's size, at least on this side of the border. new york city simply can't be the "big city" for the great lakes because it ain't in the great lakes region. this is all self-evident stuff, i'm just repeating it for clarification. also, i'd be interested in knowing if buffalonians actually look to NYC as their "big city" as opposed to toronto. from what i've been able to gather these forums, it seems like many buffalonians look at the big apple with some degree of scorn, while at the same time there seems to be a fair bit of interplay between buffalo and toronto (jays fans in buffalo, bills fans in toronto, etc.) despite the international border. __________________ "I wish they'd hurry up and just destroy humanity already........... it's the waiting that I can't stand" - Philip J. Fry Last edited by Steely Dan; September 26th, 2006 at 05:19 PM.

September 27th, 2006, 02:00 AM	#16
ColDayMan King of Flyover Country Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Columbus Posts: 974 Likes (Received): 0	Well, I meant domestically. It's a no brainer that Buffalo's main "city" (if any exists) is Toronto.

September 27th, 2006, 04:15 AM	#18
hudkina Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 4,570 Likes (Received): 8	If I'm not mistaken, Grand Rapids and even Kalamazoo follow the Detroit sports scene. I'm not sure about Benton Harbor though. Does anyone know whether they follow Detroit or Chicago or if the loyalty is split?

September 27th, 2006, 04:24 AM	#19
TroyBoy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 793 Likes (Received): 0	Most people live in southeast michigan anyways. __________________ OMG!!! ACH NEIN!!! DER ERLKONIG KOMMET I GET HIGH OFF OF BEING HIGH

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