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Old February 19th, 2013, 09:29 AM   #2101
CairnsTony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Looks like troll city is back on the NY subway forum.

We do this shit every three months, ladies and gents.
I am quite literally lost for words....

How in your eyes is it trolling if I suggest that old systems can be modernised? Why are you being so confrontational?
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Old February 19th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #2102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The NY subway is a TRANSPORTATION system, not a HERITAGE ride.

It should function and be upgraded to modern standards, if it is to be relevant for decades to come and serve people with expectation of 21st Century. For instance, I wish the feds, state courts or anyone ordered 100% station ADA compliance or else order non-compliant stations to be shut down entirely. It is absurd that in 2013 more than half of the system's stations still keep out those who are physically disabled by not having lifts.
It is good to modernize it's infrastructure but be able to retain it's character as well.

Also make it cleaner!
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Old February 19th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #2103
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It is good to modernize it's infrastructure but be able to retain it's character as well.
No, it is bad. We don't use black-and-white transistor TVs with modern computers. We don't use 1930's surgical tools to give character to an operation room in a hospital. We don't use vintage nuclear reactor design on new power plants. There is no reason why transportation should be an exception.

They should build new ceilings on NYC stations, get rid of ALL wooden and iron stairs (substituting concrete for them), and get rid of those tiles on walls that get dirt on their junctions.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #2104
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You have no concept of what aesthetics are do you?
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Old February 19th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #2105
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You get what you pay for.


*though, it would be far more effective to list this in PPP$
Who uses single fares, though? Stockholm single fares are an absolute rip off, but the weekly, monthly and other such passes are fantastic value and far more useful for people who actually use the transport system (which is actually the majority of people here given our modal share is heavily skewed that way).
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Old February 19th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #2106
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It's just one metric that's common among them all...
If we were to bring in special passes and the like, the comparison wouldn't mean anything because there's no constant.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #2107
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Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
You get what you pay for.


*though, it would be far more effective to list this in PPP$
It should have been better, if you noted that this data is 4 years old (according to the source provided).
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Old February 20th, 2013, 02:05 AM   #2108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
I am quite literally lost for words....

How in your eyes is it trolling if I suggest that old systems can be modernised? Why are you being so confrontational?
The words "literally lost for words" are, by definition, not to be followed by additional words.

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Old February 20th, 2013, 03:14 AM   #2109
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lol
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:05 AM   #2110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
The words "literally lost for words" are, by definition, not to be followed by additional words.

Now that you've had your little joke, care to answer my question?
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Old February 20th, 2013, 02:09 PM   #2111
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Quote:
Looks like troll city is back on the NY subway forum.
I don't understand, don't you want your subway to be cleaner and less noisy? Why do you get defensive when people suggest improvements?
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Old February 20th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #2112
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I don't understand, don't you want your subway to be cleaner and less noisy? Why do you get defensive when people suggest improvements?
Well, Moscow revamped many of it's station with introducing some new materials, but without cardinally modifying the overall look,
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Old February 21st, 2013, 02:26 AM   #2113
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Answering the questions on why NYC's Subway system is old, noisy, and shitty.
Qualifications: A lifelong New Yorker who has visited the Hong Kong MTR, Singapore MRT, Chicago El, Washington D.C. Metro. Interested in, studying, and have worked in transportation.

1) Lack of financial support (aka taxes) from the government, both city, state, and national. Politicians lack a long-term outlook and *commitment* (aka balls) to funding operating or capital projects for transit systems in the U.S., compared to European or Asian places. a majority of funding instead goes towards road/highway projects.

2) NYC is very expensive for cost-of-living. Also, unions are quite strong in setting wages and benefits and in influencing the public. As can be seen during contract negotiations, the continual slow progression made by the MTA (transit agency) in revamping work rules, phasing in new technology, or getting workers to pay a higher share for medical bills is always slowed by the Union. [Reference: last contract negotiations; 2005 Strike]

Unions also distort the facts to make the public appeal to their side - the recent suicides/homicides of several people who were hit by an oncoming train, although very, very, very rare, have made the Union to demand that their drivers (and for the MTA to make it a policy) to slow trains to 10/15 mph entering stations. They issued replicas of transit cards with "blood stains" on them to urge the public to follow them, claiming that there is plenty of room to add trains. [http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/02...way-slowdown/], [http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/02...blic-hearing/]

3) Low fares. For the base price of a ticket, you can travel anywhere on the subway or bus system, and it comes with a free transfer within 2 hours. The farebox recovery ratio (Google it) is not enough to cover operating expenses, and the MTA, unlike the Hong Kong MTR, barely invests in property development.

4) Age & *Operational Characteristics*. The NYC Subway system is quite old, and like any other system in the world, would require BILLIONS of dollars of capital money if they ever want to modernize a system to say, Singapore MRT or HK MTR standards. BELIEVE ME - I made the same points after visiting their systems. Much of the system is built beneath aging infrastructure and/or skyscrapers (esp. in Manhattan) and any extensive overhaul work would require shuttering a line for a very long time. Of course, sometimes I hate it when newly renovated or built stations are already showing signs of bad construction - that is a question on Quality Control/Auditing and in budgeting.

LAST but not least, the NYC Subway runs 24/7. Not all lines run at all times, but generally, practically all stations are served. This means most track and station work has to take place at night to avoid disrupting passengers. Aside from Jay Walder (light applause for his short-termed yet highly functional efforts) and his "FasTrack" initiative, this means that any big renovation just cannot be done without closing a line. And NOTE: multiple lines run on the same tracks at times - so if you really wanted to close a station, this could affect multiple lines.

Hopefully this answers some questions; I know that it took me awhile to be a little better educated about this issue. I recommend subscribing to Second Avenue Sagas. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the current state of the NYC Subway as well, but it works. And some of it's historic character, when preserved and kept clean, really does make this system VERY unique.

~herenthere
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Last edited by herenthere; February 21st, 2013 at 02:28 AM. Reason: SAS rec
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Old February 21st, 2013, 11:55 AM   #2114
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But aren't new lines and new tunnels being built?
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Old February 21st, 2013, 08:23 PM   #2115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herenthere View Post
Answering the questions on why NYC's Subway system is old, noisy, and shitty.
Qualifications: A lifelong New Yorker who has visited the Hong Kong MTR, Singapore MRT, Chicago El, Washington D.C. Metro. Interested in, studying, and have worked in transportation.

yadda, yadda yadda...

Hopefully this answers some questions; I know that it took me awhile to be a little better educated about this issue. I recommend subscribing to Second Avenue Sagas. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the current state of the NYC Subway as well, but it works. And some of it's historic character, when preserved and kept clean, really does make this system VERY unique.

~herenthere
This is the best post I've ever seen explain the condition of the NYC subway to those that love to flame on it..

When I was a small boy we lived in NYC and the subway is basically the same now as it was more than 56 years ago. Air-conditioned cars make it nicer today. And the subway is no where near the poor condition it was in the 70s & 80s. My wife and I were in NYC in November 2011 and used the subway to travel around the city..no problem at all. Bottom line the system works and has been working for over 100 years..24/7/365..

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/Schedu...Out_%281904%29
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Old February 22nd, 2013, 09:04 AM   #2116
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Thanks for your thorough and enlightening reply, herenthere!
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Old February 24th, 2013, 02:53 PM   #2117
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Does anyone know exactly how many kilometers is underground from total 337 km of New York City Subway ?
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Old February 24th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #2118
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According to Wikipedia, about 60% of the system is below ground. So about 202.2 km.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 01:12 AM   #2119
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270 km under the ground - Madrid Metro
202 km under the ground - New York Subway
198 km under the ground - Paris Metro
181 km under the ground - London Underground
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Old February 25th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #2120
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270 km under the ground - Madrid Metro
202 km under the ground - New York Subway
198 km under the ground - Paris Metro
181 km under the ground - London Underground
They really do love to tunnel in Spain.
Wish could steal some of their project managers...they're masters at budgeting these large projects.
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