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Old June 19th, 2013, 02:26 AM   #2281
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Light-rail push for 42nd Street gets rolling

An initiative to replace cars and buses on 42nd Street with light rail has gone nowhere without the mayor on board, but backers aim to convince his successor
unless properly engineered this will not work. The north south traffic on the cross streets can be horrific. There's nothing wrong with the Times Square Square shuttle.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #2282
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I really don't understand why is subway construction so expensive in NYC. I've read the unions being blamed for it, but workers are unionized is Europe too, and their salaries can't explain such a big difference.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by Arnorian View Post
I really don't understand why is subway construction so expensive in NYC. I've read the unions being blamed for it, but workers are unionized is Europe too, and their salaries can't explain such a big difference.
Land costs for stations, a lack of tunnel engineers due to the infrequency of building underground railways*, difficult-to-cut-through rock...

Flapane can't do maths: it's a 2.5 mile line, so that is $1.44bn to $2bn per mile for subway construction. And $200m/mile seems very cheap for Paris or London - even for Madrid it seems cheap. Maybe pure tunneling, with underground stations costing an extra $200m each. This makes a New York mile of subway, at 'Madrid prices' be $600m/mile. New York is 2-3 times the price, but that seems more reasonable than the 7-10 times that the outrageously low figure of 200m/mile costs.

London's 2-mile, 2-station Northern line extension needs a £1bn loan (so 1 milesworth of New York subway), though other costs like trains (which are expensive) being paid for without loans, or absorbed into other projects. Both stations on the extension are simple, with no need for interaction with another line, and Battersea won't require demolition or land purchase (as it's being built as part of a redevelopment with the developers being the ones paying back the loan). New York's prices seem about right with that.

Just for stations, an upgrade of Victoria is to cost £1bn, Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street crossrail stations are about £1bn a piece. Part of this is having to deal with existing passengers while carrying out the works.

London (well, Watford's) Croxley Rail Link - a 1/2 mile viaduct over a canal and a road, 2 miles of surface railway reopening, 2 new stations (one using infrastructure moved from a nearby station that will be closed) will cost £115m. That's with no tunnels, no new trains, simple stations, no demolition (other than along the former rail alignment, which is overgrown and has platforms in the way), little land purchase. It's not like New York is expensive, just that Madrid is cheap!

*London, in an attempt to combat this problem, has built an academy, linked with Crossrail, training ~100 rail tunnel expert constructors. This will be useful for HS2 (which, while not urban, has quite a bit of tunneling), Crossrail 2 and Northern, Bakerloo and DLR extensions all in the pipe for the next 20 years.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #2284
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Flapane can't do maths: it's a 2.5 mile line, so that is $1.44bn to $2bn per mile for subway construction.
Actually, I can.
It's the article which is prone to misunderstandings. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2657543
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #2285
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Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
Light-rail push for 42nd Street gets rolling

An initiative to replace cars and buses on 42nd Street with light rail has gone nowhere without the mayor on board, but backers aim to convince his successor


I don't understand this project. Both the 7 Train and the Times Square / Grand Central Shuttle line run below 42nd Street. Why is there a need for a third line? Put this project on Houston Street, 23rd Street, 34th Street, 79th Street, 125th Street where cross town train service is needed (and doesn't exist). Even the Brooklyn / Queens waterfront is in more need of better transit access than 42nd Street.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:46 PM   #2286
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@ Sotonsi & @ Arnonian

This 42nd street rail project would be a lot cheaper in cost to build compared to other subway projects. The 42nd street rail is above ground and not underground so costly tunneling would not be necessary.

Building a new subway line in NYC is very expensive. There are currently 2 subway projects being constructed.

Phase 1 of 2nd Avenue line and the No. 7 extension line.

The price tag respectively for each of the projects are currently a hefty $5.3 Billion (Phase 1 of 2nd Ave) and $2.1 Billion (No. 7 ext.)

Here is an interesting article about the costs and why it may be so expensive in particular to the 2nd ave subway. (Reader's comments are interesting too)

The costs of Second Ave. construction
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/01...-construction/

Another article comparing costs to other rail projects globally
US Rail Construction Costs
http://pedestrianobservations.wordpr...ruction-costs/


@ sbarns

You are right about the shuttle and the No. 7 extension. I totally forgot about that. lol! I totally agree this project would be outstanding and more necessary for the other major cross streets.

I however think this would be an awesome project for 42nd as well. The idea maybe closing up all of 42nd street and having a one big pedestrian plaza done right with shops and restaurants all along the corridor would be great. This corridor would bring a lot of tourists and regular foot traffic here. It would be great for the area economically imo.

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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #2287
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Don't forget that they are renovating some stations and buying new trains too.
But is it really necessary to ban all the transport on this street?
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #2288
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a good question. I don't know what kind of effect it will have should they decide to ban all traffic on 42nd street. I don't know for some reason when i'm around 42nd street I don't see many cross town traffic there. I may be wrong and I don't know why I perceive it as that so maybe it would not have a big impact. lol. They would definitely have to do a traffic study and see how it would effect midtown area as a whole.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:37 PM   #2289
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Well, it would be the longest pedestrian in the world, LOL
I think it would be better, if the transport was banned partially.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #2290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapane View Post
Actually, I can.
It's the article which is prone to misunderstandings. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2657543
Certainly the article is iffy, though that 'Senior member' on that forum didn't comprehend what you were trying to say I said (which was right), let alone the article.

He talks about the $360m-$510m being the total cost, not a per-mile cost of the light-rail - well duh, hence why I divided by length to get a fair comparison between the two.
Quote:
According to vision42, the 2.5-mile light-rail line would cost between $360 million and $510 million, roughly one-tenth what subway construction costs per mile.
This is quite clearly a comparison, therefore to be a legit comparison, both prices need to be per mile. Especially as it gives you a length for the light-rail. Otherwise you are comparing cost verses cost/distance, which is apples and oranges.

If it was comparing the cost of 2.5 miles light-rail v 1 mile subway, then it would say: "According to vision42, the 2.5-mile light-rail line would cost between $360 million and $510 million, roughly one-tenth of what a mile of subway construction costs".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
@ Sotonsi & @ Arnonian

This 42nd street rail project would be a lot cheaper in cost to build compared to other subway projects. The 42nd street rail is above ground and not underground so costly tunneling would not be necessary.
And the relevance of that no-brain statement is? Do you understand what the dispute is here? It's simply that New York subway costs are not $3.6-$5bn per mile.
Quote:
Building a new subway line in NYC is very expensive. There are currently 2 subway projects being constructed.

Phase 1 of 2nd Avenue line and the No. 7 extension line.

The price tag respectively for each of the projects are currently a hefty $5.3 Billion (Phase 1 of 2nd Ave) and $2.1 Billion (No. 7 ext.)
Both about the same as equivalent projects in London: the Bakerloo extension via the Old Kent Road (admittedly an option rejected due to there being a cheaper route with better benefits) and the Northern line extension, when you account for various discrepancies between the two (shorter trains, smaller profile trains, additional rolling stock cost partially hidden, etc).

Looking, the costs of the Flushing extension are $1.6bn a mile ($2.1bn/2.1km) and the Second Ave Subway, per the source given, is $1.7bn a mile. This fits in with my reading of the badly-worded article.

Yes, it is expensive, but it's not that dissimilar from the expensive parts of Europe, nor is it anywhere near $5bn/mile!

Oh, and $5bn isn't that hefty - Crossrail was topping $30bn when the pound was high - now about 20 (£13bn, having dropped from £17bn about 4 years ago).
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Old June 19th, 2013, 08:18 PM   #2291
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
difficult-to-cut-through rock...
Yup, and schist in many cases. I hear that's a nightmare to have to cut through. But you basically have no other choice but to cut through schist because its the next level below all of the pipes and sewers of the city.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #2292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Certainly the article is iffy, though that 'Senior member' on that forum didn't comprehend what you were trying to say I said (which was right), let alone the article.
[...CUT...]
If it was comparing the cost of 2.5 miles light-rail v 1 mile subway, then it would say: "According to vision42, the 2.5-mile light-rail line would cost between $360 million and $510 million, roughly one-tenth of what a mile of subway construction costs".
I'm not sure he didn't comprehend it (actually, the average level among native speakers on wordreference.com is pretty high), however a good writer should me as much clear as possible.
Linguistics is a complex matter, and writing a good article is not as easy as it may seem. As a non native speaker, I wanted to hear someone else's opinion. The text I quoted from vision42, and we agree on this, could be misinterpreted. Feel free to create an account on wordreference and ask for other opinions or add yours.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #2293
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So the entire planned 2nd Avenue Subway from Phase I to Phase IV, wont be completed til... 2060?
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Old June 20th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #2294
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By that time conversion of metro systems to low-speed maglev will be done in other countries.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #2295
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This thread is about..

The New York City Subway



Long video but... Excellent!

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Old June 20th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #2296
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"Elevated platform, Canal Street" as featured in 1949, from 17'41" to 20'10":


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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:53 AM   #2297
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Excellent "Film Noir" trainrover! I've seen that film..recently on one of my roku box channels..
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 02:32 AM   #2298
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I was hoping that you must've seen it
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 03:55 AM   #2299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarn View Post
I don't understand this project. Both the 7 Train and the Times Square / Grand Central Shuttle line run below 42nd Street. Why is there a need for a third line? Put this project on Houston Street, 23rd Street, 34th Street, 79th Street, 125th Street where cross town train service is needed (and doesn't exist). Even the Brooklyn / Queens waterfront is in more need of better transit access than 42nd Street.
Manhattan is so narrow - even if you have to walk across the entire width of the island it's only about a mile. I don't see much need for east west lines.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 05:55 AM   #2300
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Manhattan is so narrow - even if you have to walk across the entire width of the island it's only about a mile. I don't see much need for east west lines.

A little wider than that.

How wide is midtown Manhattan?

Quote:
Approximately 2 miles (3.22 kilometers). According to the measurements I got using Google Maps and a tape measure, Manhattan Island is exactly:

2.06 miles (3.32 km) or 10,888.88 feet (3,318.93 meters) wide at 33rd Street

2.06 miles (3.32 km) or 10,888.88 feet (3,318.93 meters) wide at 40th Street

2.02 miles (3.25 km) or 10,666.67 feet (3,251.20 meters) wide at 47th Street

2.02 miles (3.25 km) or 10,666.67 feet (3,251.20 meters) wide at 52nd Street

2.10 miles (3.38 km) or 11,111.11 feet (3,386.67 meters) wide at 58th Street
Manhattan at its widest is at 14th street. 2.3 miles.
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