daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 21st, 2014, 04:54 AM   #2621
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

I'm surprised how little traffic there is for Downtown!!
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 21st, 2014, 07:48 AM   #2622
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
I'm surprised how little traffic there is for Downtown!!
PATH and Ferries handle Downtown Traffic.
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section

mrsmartman liked this post
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 03:25 PM   #2623
Alargule
Res Uder et Siger
 
Alargule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,202
Likes (Received): 2079

Umm...ok.

I think the real reason is that commercial activities have shifted from Downtown to Midtown. Which might also explain why the switching of the M train from the Nassau Loop to the Sixth Avenue Local has proven to be so succesful.
Alargule no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 03:53 PM   #2624
citybus
Registered User
 
citybus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Belfast
Posts: 1,754
Likes (Received): 230

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnorian View Post
I think extending the 6 train would not be as important as extending some other services.

Also, Lexington Ave. line runs above capacity as it is, adding new stations would make things worse.
That is a good reason for not extending the 6, it's the kind of answer I was expecting but hadn't heard before. Thanks for the clarification.
citybus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 08:55 PM   #2625
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
Umm...ok.

I think the real reason is that commercial activities have shifted from Downtown to Midtown. Which might also explain why the switching of the M train from the Nassau Loop to the Sixth Avenue Local has proven to be so succesful.
Good Point, I should have realized this (I mean it's been going on since they built grand central), but on the other hand, Downtown NYC is still the 3rd or 4th largest CBD in the country, so still, why the lack of ridership?
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016

Last edited by CNB30; April 21st, 2014 at 09:10 PM.
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 09:06 PM   #2626
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Actually, i think I reached a more reasonable conclusion myself: The Subway stations around Downtown are closely packed together, meaning that midtown stations probably service more people per stop (for example Grand central subway station appears to be the main service for most of midtown east). And also, the Midtown stations include many more lines on each stop (look @ the times square stop for example).
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 10:25 PM   #2627
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,637
Likes (Received): 5737

Quote:
Originally Posted by citybus View Post
I've never been on the New York Subway but I was wondering if there was any specific reasons why the 6 line wasn't extended to Co-Op City- Wikipedia lists funding problems as the cause but that's not a very satisfactory answer.
Just satisfactory is usually enough. Why push for "very satisfactory"? This is the NY subway we're talking about.
__________________

mrsmartman liked this post
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 21st, 2014, 10:45 PM   #2628
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
factory"?
Oh, let it be .. manufactured grammar found in these pages is nothing new when folks here 'modify' others' wishes.
__________________
.
hee hee
.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 04:21 AM   #2629
herenthere
I♥H.K.
 
herenthere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC/紐約市/Nueva York
Posts: 427
Likes (Received): 70

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
I'm surprised how little traffic there is for Downtown!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Good Point, I should have realized this (I mean it's been going on since they built grand central), but on the other hand, Downtown NYC is still the 3rd or 4th largest CBD in the country, so still, why the lack of ridership?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
Actually, i think I reached a more reasonable conclusion myself: The Subway stations around Downtown are closely packed together, meaning that midtown stations probably service more people per stop (for example Grand central subway station appears to be the main service for most of midtown east). And also, the Midtown stations include many more lines on each stop (look @ the times square stop for example).
I think the numbers / scale used in that map is based on AM STATION ENTRIES. I think it's safe to say that Downtown has considerably fewer residential density as compared to other stations of NYC. The large dots at Penn Station and Grand Central Station are entries from the commuter trains.
__________________
Proponent of Mass Transit, Livable Streets, and Progressive Politics

mrsmartman liked this post
herenthere no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2014, 04:53 AM   #2630
CNB30
centralnatbankbuildingrva
 
CNB30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: New York (Brooklyn)/Richmond/Philadelphia
Posts: 2,575
Likes (Received): 805

Quote:
Originally Posted by herenthere View Post
I think the numbers / scale used in that map is based on AM STATION ENTRIES. I think it's safe to say that Downtown has considerably fewer residential density as compared to other stations of NYC. The large dots at Penn Station and Grand Central Station are entries from the commuter trains.
Stupid me, no dip, I thought it was based on all day entrances and exits (obviously the small # of downtown entrances appeared mind boggling to me).
__________________
High speed rail=real energy independence!

A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use public transportation

Feel The Bern #2016
CNB30 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 04:39 AM   #2631
Innsertnamehere
insertoronto
 
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,960
Likes (Received): 680

the subway actually seems rather underused.. Stations under 20k are relatively rare in Toronto, but yet stations under 10k seem to be the standard in NYC.. Interesting. I thought many of those numbers would be higher.
Innsertnamehere no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 07:13 AM   #2632
LastConformist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 195
Likes (Received): 119

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
the subway actually seems rather underused.. Stations under 20k are relatively rare in Toronto, but yet stations under 10k seem to be the standard in NYC.. Interesting. I thought many of those numbers would be higher.
That can't even be close to right for Toronto. Average weekday ridership for the whole Toronto system, with 69 stations, is 940,000, which is an mean per station of about 14,000, so stations under 20,000 are the norm, not at all unusual. For comparison, New York City has 5,460,000 average weekday ridership across 421 stations, for an average per station of about 12,000. (Note that the figure on the chart is a *median*, not an average--Toronto's median station is likely much lower than its average as well, as a few stations in the CBD will always be disproportionately patronized.

Toronto still has a slightly higher per-station average, but Toronto's stations are much further apart, so they each service a much larger population. Related to that, a lot of people in Toronto have to commute by bus/commuter rail/car to a train station, whereas in NYC they have a local walkable train station that might see fewer daily riders. NYC also has a few stations in remote areas that are barely used at all (the Rockaway lines, in particular) that drag down the average.
__________________

mrsmartman liked this post
LastConformist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 08:14 AM   #2633
ramakrishna1984
Registered User
 
ramakrishna1984's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1,039
Likes (Received): 788

The New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) is testing two solar-powered kiosks, which provide customers with real-time train, subway and bus arrival information without connecting to the electrical grid.

http://www.railway-technology.com/ne...imates-4219100
__________________

mrsmartman liked this post
ramakrishna1984 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 11:12 AM   #2634
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,072
Likes (Received): 8791

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
the subway actually seems rather underused.. Stations under 20k are relatively rare in Toronto, but yet stations under 10k seem to be the standard in NYC.. Interesting. I thought many of those numbers would be higher.
Actually, if one takes "ridership by kilometre" as shown here if you choose the option to display ridership by km of track, Toronto still doesn't perform particularly well despite the density around most subway stations and the limited extent of the subway compared to other cities. Toronto manages to garner 10,700 people riding the network per km of track, compared to 12,300 for New York City.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2014, 06:42 PM   #2635
Alargule
Res Uder et Siger
 
Alargule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,202
Likes (Received): 2079

How is that figure calculated, I wonder? Number of passenger kms divided by number of revenue service kms?
Alargule no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2014, 12:46 AM   #2636
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,637
Likes (Received): 5737

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Actually, if one takes "ridership by kilometre" as shown here if you choose the option to display ridership by km of track, Toronto still doesn't perform particularly well despite the density around most subway stations and the limited extent of the subway compared to other cities. Toronto manages to garner 10,700 people riding the network per km of track, compared to 12,300 for New York City.
That table is off. The figure given for Toronto is 71.3 km, which appears to be the length of bidirectional track, so at about 142.6 km of track total and 762k daily ridership, we manage about 5,350 riders per km of revenue track (exactly half of what you cited, as expected).

But the 'network length' stated for NYC subway in the table is 368.0 km, which includes areas where there are two, three and four revenue tracks. This number was fed into the denominator to achieve NYC's daily ridership per km, but it is not directly comparable to the Toronto 71.3 km (which I believe is composed entirely of double-track). At a total of 1,056 km of revenue track length in NYC and 4.53 million daily ridership, we arrive at 4,289 riders per km of revenue track in NYC, which is less than 5,350 riders per km in Toronto.
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2014, 02:50 AM   #2637
Innsertnamehere
insertoronto
 
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,960
Likes (Received): 680

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastConformist View Post
That can't even be close to right for Toronto. Average weekday ridership for the whole Toronto system, with 69 stations, is 940,000, which is an mean per station of about 14,000, so stations under 20,000 are the norm, not at all unusual. For comparison, New York City has 5,460,000 average weekday ridership across 421 stations, for an average per station of about 12,000. (Note that the figure on the chart is a *median*, not an average--Toronto's median station is likely much lower than its average as well, as a few stations in the CBD will always be disproportionately patronized.

Toronto still has a slightly higher per-station average, but Toronto's stations are much further apart, so they each service a much larger population. Related to that, a lot of people in Toronto have to commute by bus/commuter rail/car to a train station, whereas in NYC they have a local walkable train station that might see fewer daily riders. NYC also has a few stations in remote areas that are barely used at all (the Rockaway lines, in particular) that drag down the average.
http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planni..._2012-2013.pdf

There are the ridership stats for Toronto if you want to take a look. total ridership numbers are a bit high because transfer stations are double counted. (they count a person each time they use a platform, so transfer stations count people making a transfer) you can exclude those stations, (St. George, Bloor-Yonge, Kennedy, and Sheppard-Yonge) and there are still 2 stations hovering around the 100,000 mark and quite a few over 50,000.

13 of Toronto's 69 stops are below 10,000.

Toronto's ridership figures also include a JFK airtrian tech line used as a metro, which is drastically lower capacity and not really a subway, and contains 3 of the 4 emptiest stations on the system. If you don't count it just 9 stations are under 10k.

Toronto's system is also only 68.3km long. (For now, it'll be closer to 90km by the end of the decade)

Last edited by Innsertnamehere; April 25th, 2014 at 03:00 AM.
Innsertnamehere no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2014, 02:54 AM   #2638
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastConformist View Post
For comparison, New York City has 5,460,000 average weekday ridership across 421 stations for an average per station of about 12,000.
It might be helpful knowing what fraction of ridership limit their travel to express services so that dem arithmetic sorcerers might conclude some loftier figure .. and, therefore, also makes their stations INSTEAD (quote)much farther apart(/quote).

If you pitch an angle, Canada, then make sure you cover all bases, ensuring they be the CORRECT ones, please.
__________________
.
hee hee
.

mrsmartman liked this post

Last edited by trainrover; April 25th, 2014 at 03:00 AM.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2014, 11:18 AM   #2639
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,072
Likes (Received): 8791

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
That table is off. The figure given for Toronto is 71.3 km, which appears to be the length of bidirectional track, so at about 142.6 km of track total and 762k daily ridership, we manage about 5,350 riders per km of revenue track (exactly half of what you cited, as expected).

But the 'network length' stated for NYC subway in the table is 368.0 km, which includes areas where there are two, three and four revenue tracks. This number was fed into the denominator to achieve NYC's daily ridership per km, but it is not directly comparable to the Toronto 71.3 km (which I believe is composed entirely of double-track). At a total of 1,056 km of revenue track length in NYC and 4.53 million daily ridership, we arrive at 4,289 riders per km of revenue track in NYC, which is less than 5,350 riders per km in Toronto.
That is if you are calculating by single track, not by length of system (which doesn't distinguish between single, double or more tracks). Judging from the lengths there on that website, they are calculating system length without distinguishing between number of tracks. It seems odd to me to calculate ridership per km of track as you have given that a system that is quad tracked will still feel more crowded if it has 1.5 times as many people on a section as a section of track that has double tracks. It's the density of people within a given area that makes the system busy, not by how many people there on each track - especially true in the case of NYC where (as you state) a part of the system has quad tracks for express trains. You'll have to take up your complaint about the calculation with Micro - he's a member here on SSC, not me. It's his website I pulled those figures from.

Last edited by Svartmetall; April 25th, 2014 at 11:24 AM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2014, 12:26 AM   #2640
Woonsocket54
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Woonsocket54's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: East Millinocket, Maine
Posts: 5,637
Likes (Received): 5737

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
That is if you are calculating by single track, not by length of system (which doesn't distinguish between single, double or more tracks). Judging from the lengths there on that website, they are calculating system length without distinguishing between number of tracks. It seems odd to me to calculate ridership per km of track as you have given that a system that is quad tracked will still feel more crowded if it has 1.5 times as many people on a section as a section of track that has double tracks. It's the density of people within a given area that makes the system busy, not by how many people there on each track - especially true in the case of NYC where (as you state) a part of the system has quad tracks for express trains. You'll have to take up your complaint about the calculation with Micro - he's a member here on SSC, not me. It's his website I pulled those figures from.
My concern was more you stating "Toronto manages to garner 10,700 people riding the network per km of track" which I am not sure is consistent with micro's methodology (micro website says "network length" which isn't the same as "track length"), apart from the separate question of whether micro's methodology is useful for comparison purposes.
Woonsocket54 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
метро, metro, new york city, subway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium