daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 7th, 2014, 12:53 AM   #2681
HARTride 2012
Registered User
 
HARTride 2012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 13,855
Likes (Received): 1976

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
some recent photos of mine

WORST SUBWAY STATION EVER!
HARTride 2012 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 7th, 2014, 01:15 AM   #2682
I(L)WTC
Cono Sur ♥
 
I(L)WTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Buenos Aires / Copenhague
Posts: 11,997
Likes (Received): 8760

OMG
__________________
"A las 12 me convierto en calabaza" - Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner- .

GRIDO Emblema de la decada ganada


I(L)WTC liked this post

mrsmartman liked this post
I(L)WTC no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #2683
speedy1979
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 90
Likes (Received): 136

Quote:
Originally Posted by HARTride 2012 View Post
WORST SUBWAY STATION EVER!
Is this chambers street on the bmt line?
speedy1979 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 02:13 AM   #2684
Fan Railer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 660
Likes (Received): 567

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy1979 View Post
Is this chambers street on the bmt line?
Yes
Fan Railer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 03:21 AM   #2685
Airman Kris™
Infrastructure Geek
 
Airman Kris™'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Memphis ~ Southwest Florida
Posts: 190
Likes (Received): 129

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
I can not believe they did not take a couple day's work out to refinish the tile on the columns...my word. Atleast power wash them.
__________________
American
Airman Kris™ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 04:38 AM   #2686
HARTride 2012
Registered User
 
HARTride 2012's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 13,855
Likes (Received): 1976


Yes, exactly, at the very least, give this station a good washdown and replace broken tiles. Otherwise, it will remain on my list of hideous subway stations.
__________________

mrsmartman liked this post
HARTride 2012 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 09:33 AM   #2687
Geography
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 447
Likes (Received): 104

How is the NYC Subway's financial situation? What's the farebox ratio? Do they make an operating profit at least?
Geography no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 10:56 AM   #2688
DaeguDuke
Meat popsicle
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,582
Likes (Received): 1888

The number of subway systems across the world that make an operating profit is limited to a few in Asia I believe.

Roads don't make a profit, public infrastructure just needs to be useful and not hugely expensive. A better question would be how much is NYC/NYstate willing to fund it?
DaeguDuke no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 12:20 PM   #2689
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 3,658
Likes (Received): 1638

It's around 50%, wiki has a list of major systems' farebox recovery ratio. Some figures are badly out of date though.
__________________

mrsmartman liked this post
kerouac1848 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #2690
Tower Dude
Registered User
 
Tower Dude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 76th Street Station
Posts: 1,044
Likes (Received): 593

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
A lot more than you think. Honestly, there is a LOT more that goes on with major capital construction projects than is up for public knowledge.
Well that is highly disconcerting.
__________________

"Make no small plans they lack the magic to stir men's blood!" - Daniel Burnham

"The scale is Roman and will have to be sustained."
- Charles Follen McKim (In a letter to a friend concerning the design of Penn Station)
Tower Dude está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2014, 01:33 PM   #2691
Subsequence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 198
Likes (Received): 50

...

Last edited by Subsequence; March 8th, 2017 at 04:12 PM.
Subsequence no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2014, 03:08 PM   #2692
Subsequence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 198
Likes (Received): 50

Second Ave. Subway Delays Cast Doubt on 2016 Completion, Consultant Says

...

Last edited by Subsequence; March 8th, 2017 at 04:10 PM.
Subsequence no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2014, 09:31 PM   #2693
Geography
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 447
Likes (Received): 104

Quote:
The number of subway systems across the world that make an operating profit is limited to a few in Asia I believe.

Roads don't make a profit, public infrastructure just needs to be useful and not hugely expensive. A better question would be how much is NYC/NYstate willing to fund it?
What are the profitable Asian metros doing that the NYC metro isn't?
Geography no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 15th, 2014, 10:24 PM   #2694
j-biz
rasorio caelum civitatem
 
j-biz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,310
Likes (Received): 2799

I can't speak too generally, but I know that Tokyo's transit profits are a result of investment diversification. I'm not really sure urban rail alone is capable of profit ANYWHERE. Here's an interesting article from CityLab that explains it well: The Secret to Tokyo's Rail Success

Not exactly a model New York could readily adopt, unless the MTA disbanded and transit was re-privatized.
j-biz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 12:45 AM   #2695
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8810

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-biz View Post
I can't speak too generally, but I know that Tokyo's transit profits are a result of investment diversification. I'm not really sure urban rail alone is capable of profit ANYWHERE. Here's an interesting article from CityLab that explains it well: The Secret to Tokyo's Rail Success

Not exactly a model New York could readily adopt, unless the MTA disbanded and transit was re-privatized.
No, most private rail lines in Japan do not cross subsidise from their other businesses (real estate or retail). They are intrinsically profitable from their rail operations. The real estate and retail are what help to bring passengers to the rail, and that is what the article even says there. What it does not necessarily say is that they would not be profitable without the retail and real estate involvement. It is effectively TOD all run by a private company to ensure that as much is activity concentrated around their rail business as possible, thus maximising their effectiveness as a transport system.

Here you go - in English, the revenue from Tokyo Metro. As you can see, the metro rail operations are profitable alone without cross subsidy from other businesses.

http://www.tokyometro.jp/en/corporat...ted/index.html

(more up-to-date in Japanese)

http://www.tokyometro.jp/corporate/i...ing/index.html

Last edited by Svartmetall; July 16th, 2014 at 12:50 AM.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 01:42 AM   #2696
j-biz
rasorio caelum civitatem
 
j-biz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,310
Likes (Received): 2799

Thanks for the link to the stats. Clearly Tokyo Metro is able to make a profit on it's rail operations alone. But as you mention, it's impossible to say what the numbers would look like without the real estate and retail components. It was all developed to work together.

The article I referenced also says that only one third of Tokyu's revenue comes from transportation. They're either making one hell of a profit margin, or the story is a bit different from service to service. I'll admit to talking off the cuff, though.
j-biz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 01:50 AM   #2697
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8810

Quote:
Originally Posted by j-biz View Post
Thanks for the link to the stats. Clearly Tokyo Metro is able to make a profit on it's rail operations alone. But as you mention, it's impossible to say what the numbers would look like without the real estate and retail components. It was all developed to work together.

The article I referenced also says that only one third of Tokyu's revenue comes from transportation. They're either making one hell of a profit margin, or the story is a bit different from service to service. I'll admit to talking off the cuff, though.
They (Tokyu Corporation mentioned in the article as the example) are making a hell of a profit - 35billion yen in 2012 in consolidated net income. Given a third of that is from railway, then you have to consider that rail makes over 10 billion yen in profit a year. They maximised rail revenue due to their business model, which clearly works there.

As for Tokyo Metro - they don't have half the real estate investment that Tokyu and the other private railways in Tokyo have.

Still, what is evident is the fact there is profit from rail alone. If other externalities such as the development around rail lines have helped that situation, then that is exactly what should be replicated elsewhere, no? The US and others have started to do that with the transit oriented development (TOD) concept.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 05:25 PM   #2698
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

The HK MTR is a highly profitable agency.
Isn't Tokyo essentially several smaller agencies? That, in some ways similar to London, can serve to maximize efficiency when you don't have one, huge, bureaucratic agency trying to address everything.

In any case, I do think the TOD and other aspects of that model is what helps to provide growth in the system (as well as a steady stream of revenue).

Isn't some of the root issue for the MTA the severe backlog of poor repairs and maintenance? Labor costs for the MTA are also insanely high, as well.

In any case, what the farebox recovery ratios tell me (at around 30-50%) is that subway fares in the city are obviously below what it - currently - should cost per passenger mile.

It's kind of a Catch-22: they can't raise fares, without facing stiff opposition, since people think the system is too bad to justify it, but service can't improve at the rate it needs to unless they put more funds towards massive capital projects (signaling, track work, better rolling stock, station improvements, etc).

Why hasn't the city just wrestled control of the subway (or MTA, for that matter) back from Albany? They just don't seem that sympathetic to these issues - considering people have always said the MTA's coffers get robbed for other uses (don't know if that's necessarily true).

One thing that has always seemed like a no-brainer would be a dynamic fare system (something more like DC rather than London), that charged higher fares when it actually costs the system more to transport you (i.e. cheaper fares during rush hour and higher fares during off peak services). The benefit of such a fare structure, is that the fares would naturally come down over time, as more people used the system, while the overall revenue could actually increase.

Another idea would be offering cheaper fares for A to B commutes (e.g. in Hamburg, you can go and register to get a weekly or monthly card and you pick two or three stations that you just use that card (flat fee) for, paying for other routes you take).

They also waste a lot of resources on the way they collect fares (the paper card), when they could save a lot of money and increase efficiency by moving towards something that works with Mobile Phones/Credit and Debit Cards and is good across the entire MTA system.

Another thing would be renovating stations to incorporate commercial spaces that provide rent and attract more users to the system.

Lastly, they really need to get into a state of good repair as quickly as possible. Some of the signaling equipment they have is so old, workers have to jerry-rig their own components because they're no longer manufactured!

In a perfect world, the agency would be moving towards automated service, but that seems completely untenable in this labor market. This is something they could have pushed with the Second Ave. Subway, to demonstrate to users the benefits of an automated system.
__________________
MCRP '16
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 05:57 PM   #2699
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,074
Likes (Received): 8810

Smaller? JR East is the worlds largest rail company and makes a profit of 175.8 billion yen, employs 73000 people and operates 7526.8km of track. I would not call that "small" by any stretch of the imagination. True, the private railways are smaller, but I don't think that contributes to their efficiency. If JR East can be profitable, then I think any railway that is run efficiently and properly can manage. Size alone isn't the deciding factor on profitability in transport.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #2700
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Smaller? JR East is the worlds largest rail company and makes a profit of 175.8 billion yen, employs 73000 people and operates 7526.8km of track. I would not call that "small" by any stretch of the imagination. True, the private railways are smaller, but I don't think that contributes to their efficiency. If JR East can be profitable, then I think any railway that is run efficiently and properly can manage. Size alone isn't the deciding factor on profitability in transport.
I didn't mean to imply it was smaller than the MTA, relax. I just meant, Tokyo mass transit has several small agencies that operate various services. I'm not sure where JR East figures in to what I said, though I assume you meant to point out they operate services in the city. In any case, all I meant is that Tokyo's mass transit infrastructure is largely handled by a group (two main subway companies, and several smaller agencies) of smaller agencies - compared to what would be the behemoth if it were all consolidated.

Also, I don't mean that it's the size that contributes to the efficiencies, really. However, the idea of several agencies that focus on their specific service areas is more efficient. In other words, rather than one large agency having to assume control of every single line, you have two that operate independently, with their own budgets, O&M, and capital projects.

It would be akin to thinking about what air travel would be like (from a corporate perspective) if there was only one, huge company operating all flights in the US. Sure, you would make a huge profit on NY to LA, but not on Des Moines to Chicago.

And I specifically said that the HK MTR is probably one of the most profitable transit companies in the world, and they are nowhere near as large as Tokyo Metro or Toei. However, it is true that they earn much of their revenue from developing property and consulting on other projects rather than fares alone.
__________________
MCRP '16

Last edited by phoenixboi08; July 16th, 2014 at 11:18 PM.
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
метро, metro, new york city, subway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium