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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:02 PM   #4121
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Wow, terrific photos, all of them!

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2nd Ave Subway - 72nd St Station


This one is I thought was the best.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 11:38 PM   #4122
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A quick eyeball on Google Maps seems to put the SAS stations in a more central part of the UES than the Lex...

I'm not sure if it would be much of a help right now, though, since if someone wants the Financial District, they either need to go to 86/Lex for the 4/5, or take the 6/N/Q and change somewhere.

On a side note, is it possible to build a transfer passageway between Lex/59 and Lex/63? If they're building a transfer walkway between 42/2Av and Grand Central, which is a longer length, they could do it there too...
A big part of the problem is that Lex/63 is very, very deep underground, so connecting it to Lex/59 involves a lot of verticality as well as horizontal. I definitely think they should connect them, but it would not be cheap - though the value proposition is a lot higher now than before SAS opened (previously, it only served F riders, who could have taken the E to/from the Queens Blvd line or the M to/from the 6th Ave line via the transfer between Lex/53 and Lex/51 instead, but now it would also add a better connection between the Q and Grand Central and ease some of the crowding at Times Square that the SAS is likely to generate).
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Old January 4th, 2017, 02:21 AM   #4123
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A big part of the problem is that Lex/63 is very, very deep underground, so connecting it to Lex/59 involves a lot of verticality as well as horizontal. I definitely think they should connect them, but it would not be cheap - though the value proposition is a lot higher now than before SAS opened (previously, it only served F riders, who could have taken the E to/from the Queens Blvd line or the M to/from the 6th Ave line via the transfer between Lex/53 and Lex/51 instead, but now it would also add a better connection between the Q and Grand Central and ease some of the crowding at Times Square that the SAS is likely to generate).
I was actually thinking something like what they did at Bleecker Street, where the Lex express platforms are re-extended towards the north to about 61st Street, and from there are directly connected to the mezzanine of Lex/63.

However, I guess such a transfer would only be signed for the 4 and 5, tf you want the N R W you can take the Q to 57th/7Av, and if you want the 6 you should have taken the T on 2Av instead, using 55th, Lex/53, and 51st for the transfer.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 02:59 AM   #4124
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Old January 4th, 2017, 05:22 AM   #4125
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Any chance of the 2nd Avenue subway line being extended west under 125th Street?

This would provide connections to the 1, 2, 3, D and A, also creating an east-west crossing at the northern end of Manhattan.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #4126
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That is one of the plans under consideration in the very long term future. However, a turn west would preclude a much more needed Bronx extension. 125th Street could probably be adequately serviced with Light Rail or SBS for quite a while to come.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 09:29 AM   #4127
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Quote:
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Any chance of the 2nd Avenue subway line being extended west under 125th Street?

This would provide connections to the 1, 2, 3, D and A, also creating an east-west crossing at the northern end of Manhattan.

The ideal future for the Second Ave. line would create the 125th subway westward to Broadway you described but also branch almost due north from Second Ave. at 125th to Grand Concourse in The Bronx. So if both branches were built, 125th could be the Q and the Bronx link could be the T. This would also permit all of those Grand Concourse trains to divert to Second Ave. in the event of a service disruption beneath 8th Ave.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 09:59 AM   #4128
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This would also permit all of those Grand Concourse trains to divert to Second Ave. in the event of a service disruption beneath 8th Ave.
If that were the case, I wouldn't bother with 125th/Broadway, perhaps send all 125th Crosstown trains onto the spare tracks through 135th Street, then local up 8th Ave and terminate the service at 168th with the C so as to have the transfer with the 1.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 11:07 AM   #4129
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However, a turn west would preclude a much more needed Bronx extension.
They will leave provisions for extension into the Bronx. Q train can go west under the 125th street, and the future T train can go north to the Bronx.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 12:12 PM   #4130
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Ooh, do you have a source for this?

AFAIK all the CBTC equipped B Division trains are at East New York for the L, and I would presume that Coney would already need to refit some more trains for 8th Avenue and QBL CBTC - perhaps some of these CBTC-ready trains could be assigned to the Q to reap the benefits of CBTC north of Lex-63rd...
I don't know how it's supposed to work out, regarding the Q, because I'm really not knowledgeable in that regard. I did, however, read that they were making the provisions (I'll keep looking for where I saw that mentioned - probably on SAS, somewhere).

Again, I think the plan is for it to be fully realized when the 'T' service goes into operation, which I imagine wouldn't be until at least Phase 2 & 3, but I didn't know that they still plan to interline the 'Q.'

Otherwise, there were photos circulating of one of the control rooms which purported to show CBTC equipment - although, I don't really know how one could differentiate on that, alone.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 12:29 PM   #4131
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Quote:
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Any chance of the 2nd Avenue subway line being extended west under 125th Street?

This would provide connections to the 1, 2, 3, D and A, also creating an east-west crossing at the northern end of Manhattan.
also: put the 2nd Av station at Lexington so that it connects to both the Lex subway and the commuter rail station a block away.
A real dream would be to get the crosstown tunnel you're suggesting built so that it can keep going west under the Hudson and have some stations in NJ (connect to extended HB Lrt?).
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Old January 4th, 2017, 04:54 PM   #4132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahbabyuhhuh View Post
The ideal future for the Second Ave. line would create the 125th subway westward to Broadway you described but also branch almost due north from Second Ave. at 125th to Grand Concourse in The Bronx. So if both branches were built, 125th could be the Q and the Bronx link could be the T. This would also permit all of those Grand Concourse trains to divert to Second Ave. in the event of a service disruption beneath 8th Ave.
The plan is to route it into the South Bronx and East Bronx, possibly taking over the Dyre Ave Line and adding a new branch to Co-Op City.

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They will leave provisions for extension into the Bronx. Q train can go west under the 125th street, and the future T train can go north to the Bronx.
Unfortunately, because the 2nd Ave is only double track, there won't be enough capacity for both (or so I've read).
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Old January 4th, 2017, 09:00 PM   #4133
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Okay, but with CTBC 45 tph or a train every 90 seconds is possible. Already the lex line gets close to 30 tph, in the upper 20s tph, I believe other lines are as well. Sometime the display will read like there's 2 min between trains, but it's likely a rounding error down. Going from 25 to 45 tph would make enough difference to run that many routes on two tracks. Only problem is, they couldn't be second avenue express without passing zones. Maybe a farther south or north section could be four tracks, I know this is impossible in the post space age when we can land on Mars and have 20 years ago super computers in our pockets, even though the amazing existing local/express system was build 100 years ago.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 09:54 PM   #4134
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This is a little confusingly worded.

Could you please clarify units of measurement here? Give some examples of how many trains per hour in various scenarios.
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Old January 4th, 2017, 11:32 PM   #4135
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Some lines can handle within a rounding error of a train every two minutes, 27 tph or so.
With CBTC, not only is a full 30 tph possible, a train every two minutes, 45 tph / a train every 90 seconds is possible, enough to run many services on two tracks,
though none could be express without being able to pass local trains.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 12:29 AM   #4136
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Unfortunately, because the 2nd Ave is only double track, there won't be enough capacity for both (or so I've read).
If the Bronx needs more than 22tph from the SAS, how come there's so few places that get that level of service? Surely they'd be running more B and D trains (8tph and 10tph respectively) if there was genuinely masses of demand?

The section of the SAS in the densely-populated Upper East Side opened with just 7.5tph, so that's some serious pull from the Bronx and Harlem Crosstown to need more than 4 times that, and/or some crappy service on the Q bits that don't have interlining.
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Okay, but with CTBC 45 tph or a train every 90 seconds is possible.
I think 100 seconds is the real limit, as after that dwell times at stations get in the way (rather than signalling). 36tph, rather than 40tph, is what London is maxing out at, even on lines with no issues of branching, though they did propose 40tph for the Metro variant of Crossrail 2 (fully segregated and automatic trains, all platforms purpose-built and tons of money thrown at it to get people from ground level to the trains in as high capacity way as possible) so maybe, but unlikely.

The bits of the Underground most like the NYC subway's B division were going to have 32tph tops with the full-scale resignalling upgrade. Junctions and passengers using trains meant that higher frequencies weren't viable.

45tph is going to be impossible, but better frequencies are easily possible on most lines (not least as so many aren't great to begin with).
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Already the lex line gets close to 30, in the upper 20s, I believe other lines are as well.
Lex (local and express), the 7, and the QB local are the main ones that get near 30tph. The Central Park West Express has 25tph, the A+C, C+E, E+M, F+M and N+R+W all have about 22tph. The Seventh Ave line has 20tph on each set of tracks, and the 42nd St Shuttle is also 20tph. Peak only, and every else is less than that.
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Going from 25 to 45 tph would make enough difference to run that many routes on two tracks.
30tph ought to be enough anyway, going by the typical frequencies. The Harlem Crosstown would surely be able to cope with a train every 8 minutes (current Q frequency), leaving 3 trains every 8 minutes to go to the Bronx.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:22 AM   #4137
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Originally Posted by Miami High Rise View Post
Okay, but with CTBC 45 tph or a train every 90 seconds is possible. Already the lex line gets close to 30 tph, in the upper 20s tph, I believe other lines are as well. Sometime the display will read like there's 2 min between trains, but it's likely a rounding error down. Going from 25 to 45 tph would make enough difference to run that many routes on two tracks. Only problem is, they couldn't be second avenue express without passing zones. Maybe a farther south or north section could be four tracks, I know this is impossible in the post space age when we can land on Mars and have 20 years ago super computers in our pockets, even though the amazing existing local/express system was build 100 years ago.
I remember hearing that the existing segments of the SAS in Harlem were built to three tracks, so perhaps if they keep to side platforms at 106th and 116th a peak-direction express service can be put in.

And on a side note, aren't B Division trains 10-20% bigger than A Division trains?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 05:38 AM   #4138
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
If the Bronx needs more than 22tph from the SAS, how come there's so few places that get that level of service? Surely they'd be running more B and D trains (8tph and 10tph respectively) if there was genuinely masses of demand?

The section of the SAS in the densely-populated Upper East Side opened with just 7.5tph, so that's some serious pull from the Bronx and Harlem Crosstown to need more than 4 times that, and/or some crappy service on the Q bits that don't have interlining.
I think 100 seconds is the real limit, as after that dwell times at stations get in the way (rather than signalling). 36tph, rather than 40tph, is what London is maxing out at, even on lines with no issues of branching, though they did propose 40tph for the Metro variant of Crossrail 2 (fully segregated and automatic trains, all platforms purpose-built and tons of money thrown at it to get people from ground level to the trains in as high capacity way as possible) so maybe, but unlikely.

The bits of the Underground most like the NYC subway's B division were going to have 32tph tops with the full-scale resignalling upgrade. Junctions and passengers using trains meant that higher frequencies weren't viable.

45tph is going to be impossible, but better frequencies are easily possible on most lines (not least as so many aren't great to begin with).Lex (local and express), the 7, and the QB local are the main ones that get near 30tph. The Central Park West Express has 25tph, the A+C, C+E, E+M, F+M and N+R+W all have about 22tph. The Seventh Ave line has 20tph on each set of tracks, and the 42nd St Shuttle is also 20tph. Peak only, and every else is less than that.30tph ought to be enough anyway, going by the typical frequencies. The Harlem Crosstown would surely be able to cope with a train every 8 minutes (current Q frequency), leaving 3 trains every 8 minutes to go to the Bronx.
Great posts and great info, thanks. I guess the fact that most lines are worse than people may have thought is a good sign for overcrowding, because it means there is more headroom for
improvement than I thought. I know smaller trains like APM's can easily do 90 seconds / 45 tph, but they are way smaller as far as relative spacing, I would say they are slower but NYC
subway is slower than some are for sure. Now the amount of doors/car size ratio is more on an APM, but I don't understand why busy metro systems haven't slowly evolved toward bigger
and more doors, if they would they could manage quicker ingress/egress. 90 seconds, count em, is longer than it sounds, and if you time almost any public transport at a stop, they are
shorter than you think, when things are going smoothly. It would be a temporary positive feedback loop having more trains per hour and less dwell time because there would be less crowding,
that's really what slows dwell time and causes delays.
Even factoring for safe head to tail spacing, 90 seconds is literally "longer" than you think.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 05:51 AM   #4139
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The Lex is constrained by the smaller A Division car size - I would think they're about the size of Paris Metro vehicles, and the R142s already have wider car doors than the R62s.

An alternative would be like the 6-door cars they have in Japan:



where perhaps there are four doors per side in an A Division car and it's standing room only. For reference, this JR East train car is 20m long.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 06:10 AM   #4140
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Yes, even a 5-10% increase in capacity from open gangways and less seats would make a big difference. I've noticed from studying congestion in traffic that it's only a small difference between mostly
smooth flowing and traffic jams, such as Friday's being less and earlier pm rush, am rush being better than pm rush, which is more concentrated time-wise since people start at more varied times but
all want to end by 4 or 5 either way, and tired people, days that are light holidays or near holidays or in off seasons. It really doesn't take as much as you think, since once you break capacity the system
starts collapsing on itself, once a car can't hold everyone now at the station, how will the next one handle the leftovers and the new people? Even full smooth 30 tph everywhere there is CTBC would be a
huge improvement over 20 to 27 or 28 tph on the busy lines.

And now you got me watching metro vids just to watch real dwell time, on the terribly under used Miami metro where there's no people, the open door time is under 5 seconds! Less for full open door time,
but still only about 10 for the full stop time. So 90 seconds is a long time. Even tripling the dwell for business (pronounced busy - ness, I literally typed business without meaning to, just sounding out busy
ness) and headroom, you still have 30 seconds ahead and behind the train, plenty of min braking distance with CBTC, esp at NYC Subway underground/busiest section speeds currently. Of course
hopefully speed would also increase with safer switches and signals, but still,
I'm team #90secondsispossible

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