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Old January 5th, 2017, 08:07 AM   #4141
yeahbabyuhhuh
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Re: express tracks...After re-reading this thread and similar threads on other sites it appears to me that the big hold-up on the Second Ave. for the past 50 years has been the express tracks issue. It's pretty obvious now that the Second Ave. line as it has taken shape will be mostly of local benefit to the area in which it has been built. Sure, it will relieve some of the traffic on the Lexington Ave. line, but it will not benefit the entirety of New York in a way that a three or four-track line could have.

The whole dilemma was that the express track configuration wasn't really going to be of much use until the *entire* Second Ave. line was built, the full length of Manhattan. So if the Second Ave. line was ever going to be built as a 4-track line, it needed to be built in one giant phase, as were the original 4-track lines. To procure the $20 billion necessary to build a 15~ mile 4-track subway, the line was going to need an Act of Congress. There's no way in the post-Reagan era that that was ever going to happen.

Imagine if the current phase had just opened as a 4-track line. What would those extra tracks be doing right now? Nothing except storing trains overnight, or more likely they wouldn't have even been outfitted with tracks. If phases 1 & 2 had been built at once, what would those extra tracks be doing? Again, not much.

So all four phases + a link to The Bronx were necessary for those extra tracks to be of much use. But if the whole thing had been built then the city would have experienced a pretty profound improvement -- at least as much as one mega-project can affect New York City.

The question now is if a pair of express tracks could be dug beneath the brand-new line if something changes in Washington and suddenly $20 billion is thrown at this line...would it be too complex to create a linkage between these deeper express tracks and the 63rd St. tunnel, and if so, is an express service originating in The Bronx that is confined to the Second Ave. alignment to the Wall St. area really worth it?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #4142
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Originally Posted by yeahbabyuhhuh View Post
Re: express tracks...After re-reading this thread and similar threads on other sites it appears to me that the big hold-up on the Second Ave. for the past 50 years has been the express tracks issue. It's pretty obvious now that the Second Ave. line as it has taken shape will be mostly of local benefit to the area in which it has been built. Sure, it will relieve some of the traffic on the Lexington Ave. line, but it will not benefit the entirety of New York in a way that a three or four-track line could have.

The whole dilemma was that the express track configuration wasn't really going to be of much use until the *entire* Second Ave. line was built, the full length of Manhattan. So if the Second Ave. line was ever going to be built as a 4-track line, it needed to be built in one giant phase, as were the original 4-track lines. To procure the $20 billion necessary to build a 15~ mile 4-track subway, the line was going to need an Act of Congress. There's no way in the post-Reagan era that that was ever going to happen.

Imagine if the current phase had just opened as a 4-track line. What would those extra tracks be doing right now? Nothing except storing trains overnight, or more likely they wouldn't have even been outfitted with tracks. If phases 1 & 2 had been built at once, what would those extra tracks be doing? Again, not much.

So all four phases + a link to The Bronx were necessary for those extra tracks to be of much use. But if the whole thing had been built then the city would have experienced a pretty profound improvement -- at least as much as one mega-project can affect New York City.

The question now is if a pair of express tracks could be dug beneath the brand-new line if something changes in Washington and suddenly $20 billion is thrown at this line...would it be too complex to create a linkage between these deeper express tracks and the 63rd St. tunnel, and if so, is an express service originating in The Bronx that is confined to the Second Ave. alignment to the Wall St. area really worth it?
The large gaps planned between SAS stations might make an express service less useful, but I would think that between the 63rd Street Line and the 125th Crosstown, there could be a case for express tracks stopping only at 116 and 72 Streets. Express tracks and platforms have been added after the opening of a station/line in the past, so...

Don't forget that at the south end of the SAS there's also a provision for a Brooklyn tunnel - I would think that would happen first before any Bronx extension. So theoretically a SAS train from the Bronx could run express between 116 and 72, merging into Phase 3 then local on Phase 3 and 4, and maybe local on Fulton Street as well through a new Brooklyn tunnel.

At 72 Street, I would put the express platforms above the mezzanine to avoid the tunnels diverging off to 63rd Street, as putting them below might make them too deep? However, this could preclude 2 Avenue express trains going to 63rd Street, unless crossovers are built somewhere north of 72 Street to allow express trains to use the local platforms at 72.

However, if CBTC really does deliver, we might not need the express tracks if it's proven that 2 Avenue can support the needed throughput with just 2 tracks.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:08 AM   #4143
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The issue with SAS Express is that there's nothing at any of the ends for SAS Express tracks to take without kicking off something else (and if 2nd Av is less popular than 6th Ave, whose routes were almost certainly the ones to change* worse service for Brooklyn and Queens won't sell the line), or building a new line.

So it's not just 4 Manhattan phases, plus the Bronx, to make SAS express tracks worth it, but 4 Manhattan phases, the Bronx, QB Super Express, new route from Downtown through the Bronx. Clearly a massive lead weight on the scheme.

And also a pretty pointless one given the space on the B divisions N-S Manhattan cores. SAS needed to be simply about relieving the Lex and serving the East Side, rather than building half a second system! A KISS approach finally won out, and its finally arrived.

If additional Manhattan tracks are needed, then a 5th Ave Subway would work - north of 59th Street, it could run with stops every 20 blocks or so (so running quite fast). At/after 23rd it can go east and serve Alphabet City before crossing the East River. Between 96th and 116th it can jump east to 2nd for a cross-platform interchange before going to the Bronx. I'll draw it later. Serve more of Manhattan while not putting huge express millstones around schemes.

*63rd St Tunnel in the north, Manhattan Bridge North Side and Chrystie Street Connection in the south.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 11:31 AM   #4144
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The issue with SAS Express is that there's nothing at any of the ends for SAS Express tracks to take without kicking off something else (and if 2nd Av is less popular than 6th Ave, whose routes were almost certainly the ones to change* worse service for Brooklyn and Queens won't sell the line), or building a new line.

So it's not just 4 Manhattan phases, plus the Bronx, to make SAS express tracks worth it, but 4 Manhattan phases, the Bronx, QB Super Express, new route from Downtown through the Bronx. Clearly a massive lead weight on the scheme.

And also a pretty pointless one given the space on the B divisions N-S Manhattan cores. SAS needed to be simply about relieving the Lex and serving the East Side, rather than building half a second system! A KISS approach finally won out, and its finally arrived.

If additional Manhattan tracks are needed, then a 5th Ave Subway would work - north of 59th Street, it could run with stops every 20 blocks or so (so running quite fast). At/after 23rd it can go east and serve Alphabet City before crossing the East River. Between 96th and 116th it can jump east to 2nd for a cross-platform interchange before going to the Bronx. I'll draw it later. Serve more of Manhattan while not putting huge express millstones around schemes.

*63rd St Tunnel in the north, Manhattan Bridge North Side and Chrystie Street Connection in the south.


Ya a fifth avenue line would be the second capacity reliever, but what the city really need to do out side all planned SAS construction is to extend Nostrand and Burke. Build out Utica and third Ave, connect SAS to Fulton and QB and also the RX would be a nice touch to that.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 12:33 PM   #4145
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Unfortunately, because the 2nd Ave is only double track, there won't be enough capacity for both (or so I've read).
The Q train already shares tracks with the N train. So there is plenty of room for the future T train.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:17 PM   #4146
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Ya a fifth avenue line would be the second capacity reliever, but what the city really need to do out side all planned SAS construction is to extend Nostrand and Burke
As I said "if additional Manhattan tracks are needed". I fully agree that the focus should be soaking up some of the spare capacity that already exists (and certainly will with CBTC) by extending lines to poorly served parts of the city, rather than another route in Manhattan. However, if there's a need for more tracks through Midtown after the 2-track SAS, then a new 2-track route serving a different Avenue would be more use than 2 more tracks down 2nd.

Limited four-tracking, in the Upper East Side, as luacstjh98 proposes might make sense, but obviously there's the issues of it being rather redundant that were pointed out while it was proposed.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:04 PM   #4147
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also: put the 2nd Av station at Lexington so that it connects to both the Lex subway and the commuter rail station a block away.
A real dream would be to get the crosstown tunnel you're suggesting built so that it can keep going west under the Hudson and have some stations in NJ (connect to extended HB Lrt?).
That would really be the best way to fully integrate the SAS into the system - Q as a Harlem crosstown along 125th and the T (plus potential other 2nd Ave services) into the Bronx.

If I'm not mistaken there are plans for Metro-North to one day use the West Side line that is currently being used by Amtraks into Penn and those plans include another commuter rail station on the western end of 125th St.

The potential crosstown (Q) could therefore connect to the (4),(5),(6) on Lexington Ave + Metro-North at Harlem/125th, then the (2),(3) on 6th Ave, the (A),(B),(C),(D) on 8th Ave, the (1) on 10th Ave and on top of that the MNRR at their 125th St/12th Ave West Side Line station.
Prolonging it into NJ would be the icing on the cake although I think that's the least likely of all.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 10:31 PM   #4148
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my second avenue subway photos - 1/4/17

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Taken Yesterday - 1/4/17

Lexington Avenue - 63rd Street







72nd Street































86th Street



















96th Street













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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:09 AM   #4149
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There was a Doctor Who episode that involved those tile picture things coming to life and eating people. Little creepy.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #4150
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One of those murals resemble Walter White from Breaking Bad

------------------------------

They should extend the second avenue line on a W-E direction as a crosstown service connecting it with lines serving routes 1, A/B/C and 2/3.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:28 AM   #4151
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why does Herald Square subway station list a connection to M34 SBS but 86th Street subway station does not list a connection to M86 SBS?
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Old January 6th, 2017, 02:08 AM   #4152
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There's a lot of minor bugs they haven't worked out, such as the announcements and the tacky "via 2nd ave" thing. The new stations do look lonely on the FLEX signs with no connections for any of them
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Old January 6th, 2017, 05:24 AM   #4153
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Unfortunately, because the 2nd Ave is only double track, there won't be enough capacity for both [Q and T] (or so I've read).
Whatever you've read is absolute garbage. The signal system can handle 3-min headways (less once CBTC is retrofitted and activated). With the Q running every 6 min during the rush hours, there will be no problem adding in T service in the future, if Phase III ever happens lol.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 05:34 AM   #4154
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There's a lot of minor bugs they haven't worked out, such as the announcements and the tacky "via 2nd ave" thing. The new stations do look lonely on the FLEX signs with no connections for any of them
I think the "via 2 Avenue" thing is meant to be explicit *about the Q going to 96-2Av.

After all, it is possible for a train to terminate at 96-Broadway, using the express track near 103 to relay... But it's a whole other division altogether.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 06:41 AM   #4155
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One of those murals resemble Walter White from Breaking Bad
He cooks meth on the subway now. Didn't you know?
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Old January 6th, 2017, 11:38 AM   #4156
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I think the "via 2 Avenue" thing is meant to be explicit *about the Q going to 96-2Av.

After all, it is possible for a train to terminate at 96-Broadway, using the express track near 103 to relay... But it's a whole other division altogether.
The letter lines cannot use the number lines due to their wider car widths so that would never happen.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:24 PM   #4157
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Speaking of expansions, why did they not build any intermediate station between the Hudson Yard on the 7 line and 42nd Street? It is probably the longest gap between two stations other than the sectors over/under water. And it is in the middle of Manhattan!

In the same line, do they have plans to expand further south to Chelsea, and/or build a new Hudson tunnel to Hoboken? Does the design of Hudson Yards station allow for that?
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:38 PM   #4158
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The letter lines cannot use the number lines due to their wider car widths so that would never happen.
Yeah, that's why I said "it's a whole other division altogether".

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Speaking of expansions, why did they not build any intermediate station between the Hudson Yard on the 7 line and 42nd Street? It is probably the longest gap between two stations other than the sectors over/under water. And it is in the middle of Manhattan!

In the same line, do they have plans to expand further south to Chelsea, and/or build a new Hudson tunnel to Hoboken? Does the design of Hudson Yards station allow for that?
There was a provision left for the 41St/10 Av station between Times Square and Hudson Yards IIRC. Also, the overrun tracks beyond Hudson Yards run to 23rd Street or something, apparently, so it's definitely possible to extend the 7.

--

On a side note, does anyone think it might be worth it to build an infill station on the 2/3 under 104th St near CPW so as to provide access to the B/C from the 2/3?
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Old January 6th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #4159
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On a side note, does anyone think it might be worth it to build an infill station on the 2/3 under 104th St near CPW so as to provide access to the B/C from the 2/3?
Only if money grew on every single tree in Central Park.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 09:18 PM   #4160
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The ideal future for the Second Ave. line would create the 125th subway westward to Broadway you described but also branch almost due north from Second Ave. at 125th to Grand Concourse in The Bronx. So if both branches were built, 125th could be the Q and the Bronx link could be the T. This would also permit all of those Grand Concourse trains to divert to Second Ave. in the event of a service disruption beneath 8th Ave.
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Any chance of the 2nd Avenue subway line being extended west under 125th Street?

This would provide connections to the 1, 2, 3, D and A, also creating an east-west crossing at the northern end of Manhattan.
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If that were the case, I wouldn't bother with 125th/Broadway, perhaps send all 125th Crosstown trains onto the spare tracks through 135th Street, then local up 8th Ave and terminate the service at 168th with the C so as to have the transfer with the 1.
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They will leave provisions for extension into the Bronx. Q train can go west under the 125th street, and the future T train can go north to the Bronx.
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The plan is to route it into the South Bronx and East Bronx, possibly taking over the Dyre Ave Line and adding a new branch to Co-Op City.



Unfortunately, because the 2nd Ave is only double track, there won't be enough capacity for both (or so I've read).
I will say this, anyone who truly knows this city, these five boroughs, knows that at 125th Street Crosstown is ABSOLUTELY not needed. To end Phase II at 125th Street would completely shaft The Bronx of a second subway.

Ideally, you would send Phase II to 3rd Avenue-149 Street for direct transfers to the 2, 5, and 6. Not only would this provide a more direct route downtown, it would give an incentive to transfer. At 125th Street, why would I get off my much faster Lex Express to head down an absurdly long set of escalators and possibly miss my train and need to wait an extra 6 minutes? 6 minutes can get me to 59th Street. Another 6, and I'm almost at 14th Street.

I have said what I am about to say in numerous settings, but to the face of the Board itself. The key to true relief for the Lexington Avenue Line is making people transfer before they even reach the borough of Manhattan. How? Well, the first step is to end Phase II at The Hub. That way, you not only provide a more direct transfer, but you get the new Harlem River tunnel out the way. Anyone well versed in transit history in this region knows that said tunnel would only get more expensive as time ticks on. For the supposed 6 Billion dollar price tag, this version of Phase II would be more worthy of it. Secondly, you would guarantee The Bronx the two branches it needs. While Phase III is under construction, you can start the construction of the main Third Avenue Line. The first section of that could end at Fordham Plaza, connecting with the Bx12 +SBS and numerous other bus services in the area as well as Bee-Line services from Westchester. Ending that sections first phase will siphon passengers heading towards the Jerome and Concourse Lines. This line would fill a gap long left by the demolition of the Third Avenue Elevated and provided transfers to oversaturated cross Bronx routes. In doing so, passengers who would head west to the Jerome or Concourse Lines as well as East to the WPR (White Plains Road) would use the new line. Not only providing relief to the Lex, but to the 6th, 7th, and 8th Avenue Lines in Manhattan as well.

Meanwhile, construction would begin on the Lafayette Avenue Line. Branching off the mainline around 163 Street, it would (possibly) connect with the 2 and 5 at Intervale Avenue station, and the 6 at Hunts Point Station. More passenger siphoning from the various bus lines, and the first transfer with the Lexington Local. The line would then run through the Southeast Bronx via Lafayette Avenue as far as East Tremont Avenue. This line should take, at minimum, a third of the total ridership of the Pelham Line. Creating plenty of capacity for local passengers below 125th Street on the Lex.

The Third Avenue Line would then be extended north. While heading east along Pelham Parkway to Co-Op City would seen ideal, I believe that routing the line north along Webster (with a station at Bedford Pk Blvd), and then east through Bronx Park and along Allerton Avenue to Co-Op City would do more good. Not only would there be another connection to the 2 at White Plains Road (siphoning more passengers still), you would take away a good portion of Bx12 +SBS riders north of Pelham Pkwy and create capacity for those riders heading to Inwood.

This is just whatI think. Well, anyone with a clue about transit planing, would think. Sending that line over to 125th and Lex is a crime to the citizens of New York City.
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