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Old August 1st, 2017, 10:00 AM   #4441
sotonsi
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Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
There is no question we are nearing the end of 24/7 service.

On any given night, 75% of the system is shut down, so it's not that much of a leap to 100%.
I'm not sure that would happen. I can imagine lengthy nighttime closures of vast swathes of the system to do the needed maintenance but not a 100% closure of the whole system. Even if it's just one line running 24/7, the prestige/bragging rights of having a 24/7 subway is too great to shut it all down.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 12:02 PM   #4442
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Distance-based fares are fair. Subway fare should be raised even if it is flat fare.

People can take bus during late night.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 01:35 PM   #4443
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Distance-based fares are fair. Subway fare should be raised even if it is flat fare.

People can take bus during late night.


Distance-based is indeed a good idea. Flat-fare is also easy in use. What is bad is fare zoning. But what is bad as well is not thinking thouroughly (spelled correct?) about what to measure: bird's flight, the rail route distance or something in between? And also: new more direct infrastructure being more expensive per kilometer, like the Dutch railways
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Old August 1st, 2017, 01:59 PM   #4444
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The simplest zoning may be based on boroughs.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:07 PM   #4445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
There is no question we are nearing the end of 24/7 service.

On any given night, 75% of the system is shut down, so it's not that much of a leap to 100%.
Hell. No. Not happening, never in a million years, not withstanding a major incident. 75 percent of the system is NOT shut down at night as all 471 stations (Cortlandt Street is still closed. Number does not include weekend Sandy closures nor stations closed for renovation as those are not long term) have service. Every. One. Services may not run, but of the 25 non-rush hour services, only 4 don't run, and another 4 are shortened to accommodate either their sole branches or late-nite ridership needs. Every other service runs their full route (The Lefferts A becomes a shuttle between Euclid and Lefferts so all A service serves Far Rockaway), all but two run completely local. There are services that are crowded even at 2am. Absolutely no way.

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Distance-based fares are fair. Subway fare should be raised even if it is flat fare.

People can take bus during late night.
I'll talk about the fare later. On the topic of buses, if you leave it up to buses, no one will get anywhere and the city will completely shut down at night. Are any of you aware of how truly large New York City is? If it takes me an hour to get from any of my drinking spots in Manhattan or Brooklyn (2 hours if I'm in Coney Island) to my house in The Bronx, mind you that's without waiting times added (because no matter which way I go, I'll need to transfer to either another subway line in Manhattan or Brooklyn or the Bx6 in The Bronx), then a bus will take faaaaaaaaar too long. Most other cities can do it becasue they are either tiny or their city shuts down anyway. I've ridden the Noctilien in Paris. To get from Chatelet (dead center of city) to Porte d'Italie (literally at the periphery via the N15) took about 30 minutes. That's compared to 15 if Line 7 didn't close. That distance is compared to going from Coney Island to, I'd say, Newkirk Plaza on the Q. And that's being generous as Paris is smaller than Brooklyn.

I'm just trying to instill a sense of scale here. Complete overnight shutdowns of the system would never work. The people would never allow it either because far too many of us work at night here. Far too many of us party all night here. Far too many of us like having the option.

58 Percent of this city's residents (including me) do not have a car. I'm pretty sure most of that number doesn't even have a license. To take away that freedom is to take our quality of life.

The ease of transportation is one of the main big differences between us and every other city in America.

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Distance-based is indeed a good idea. Flat-fare is also easy in use. What is bad is fare zoning. But what is bad as well is not thinking thouroughly (spelled correct?) about what to measure: bird's flight, the rail route distance or something in between? And also: new more direct infrastructure being more expensive per kilometer, like the Dutch railways
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The simplest zoning may be based on boroughs.
Would never work either. at least, not under the current system. If we were to do a zoned based fare, most of this city would need to be in Zone 1. Otherwise, heh, things ain't gonna go well. The Jamaica Terminals in Queens would be the start of Zone 2. While I don't want to put the residents of the Rockaways in Zone 2 again (we used to have two fare zones before the Metrocard. Technically, at that time, parts of the Queens were in a three fare zone. Subway-->Bus=Two Fare Zone. Before the elimination of the Rockaway Double Fare Subway----->Rockaways----->Bus=Three Fare Zone), they would need to be. More so that if another Sandy were to happen, the finances to rebuild would be easier to obtain because I would recommend a portion of that going to future possible disasters. Why do I say this? Because if we were to do zoned fares, the LIRR and MNRR would need o be integrated into that. Zone 1 matching the subway fare so residents have options in areas where subways are saturated. In other cases, where there is no subway at all.

Many parts of the city are strapped for cash. The Bronx is one of the poorest congressional districts in the United States. Are you really suggesting that we take more from a people who can barely afford to put food on the table and clothes on their backs?

I, personally, do not support zoned fares. I can barely afford what we pay now.

I can already see what I wrote being confusing at some points as I type how I think.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:41 PM   #4446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTA1992 View Post
Hell. No. Not happening, never in a million years, not withstanding a major incident. 75 percent of the system is NOT shut down at night as all 471 stations (Cortlandt Street is still closed. Number does not include weekend Sandy closures nor stations closed for renovation as those are not long term) have service. Every. One.
OK, that is just not true. Every night at least part of the system is closed.

Look at tonight - http://travel.mtanyct.info/servicead...hod=getstatus4

Total shutdown on the north of City College.

And next week it's something else:

http://travel.mtanyct.info/servicead...hod=getstatus4

No between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Church Avenue.

No north of City College.

No whatsoever, meaning two stations in Harlem have no overnight subway.

No between Queensboro Plaza and Hudson Yards.

Every night something somewhere is shut down. No exceptions.

You probably mean something along the lines of - "At some point, during the course of a 30-day period, each of the 471 stations is open at night, except those shut down for long-term works." I am not even sure that's true - but maybe it is.

It's important to be precise about this and not to repeat MTA propaganda verbatim.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 03:06 AM   #4447
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http://www.amny.com/transit/mta-fast...ays-1.13880223

Lhota is a stupid man, but he knows that NYC subway is 24/7 since 1904 and I think that NO ENTIRE line will closed late night, but only SEGMENTS of it. Will there be more fastracks and maybe longer fastracks, but evn Lhota knows that everything in NYC is 24/7 !!!!!!
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 04:40 AM   #4448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
OK, that is just not true. Every night at least part of the system is closed.

Look at tonight - http://travel.mtanyct.info/servicead...hod=getstatus4

Total shutdown on the north of City College.

And next week it's something else:

http://travel.mtanyct.info/servicead...hod=getstatus4

No between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Church Avenue.

No north of City College.

No whatsoever, meaning two stations in Harlem have no overnight subway.

No between Queensboro Plaza and Hudson Yards.

Every night something somewhere is shut down. No exceptions.

You probably mean something along the lines of - "At some point, during the course of a 30-day period, each of the 471 stations is open at night, except those shut down for long-term works." I am not even sure that's true - but maybe it is.

It's important to be precise about this and not to repeat MTA propaganda verbatim.
Maintenance shutdowns and total system shutdowns are two TOTALLY different things. I meant every day. Because it;s not everyday that there are segments completely shut down. Don't try and twist my words to fit an agenda.

I live here. I know what I'm talking about.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 04:45 AM   #4449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTA1992 View Post
Maintenance shutdowns and total system shutdowns are two TOTALLY different things. I meant every day. Because it;s not everyday that there are segments completely shut down. Don't try and twist my words to fit an agenda.

I live here. I know what I'm talking about.
And however NEVER AN ENTIRE 24/7 LINE is shut down, ONLY A SEGMENT OF IT.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 05:09 AM   #4450
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Originally Posted by LTA1992 View Post
Maintenance shutdowns and total system shutdowns are two TOTALLY different things. I meant every day. Because it;s not everyday that there are segments completely shut down. Don't try and twist my words to fit an agenda.

I live here. I know what I'm talking about.
A shutdown is a shutdown. Do passengers care the precise reason? Either way, the train is not running.

The point is that on any given night a substantial chunk of the system doesn't have service.

Calling it a 24/7 system is a marketing hoax.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 05:11 AM   #4451
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And however NEVER AN ENTIRE 24/7 LINE is shut down, ONLY A SEGMENT OF IT.
The train is shut down overnight next week. The ENTIRE LINE.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 11:24 AM   #4452
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New York’s subway is so hellish, I’m homesick for London’s underground

I am a city girl, accustomed to negotiating public transport, but faced with MTA’s needlessly complex map and messy signage, I become an overawed simpleton

Quote:
Originally Posted by the guardian
The best, most chilling dystopian novels are built around a simple idea: a world very much like the one we live in, except with little things slightly askew. You know: where the images appear sharp and crisp – until you get to the edges and find them blurry, smeared with Vaseline. Think of a book with an opening scene set in a village in rural England. There’s a winding country lane, and in the distance can be heard the relentlessly tuneful whistle of a milkman, and the gentle moo of a cow. Yes, there are still milkmen and there are still cows, but look closer: the cows are wearing smart white coats and jaunty little hats, delivering milk extracted from humans. Terrifying image, isn’t it?

For the past couple of weeks, I have been trapped in a dystopia of sorts. I am in New York, ostensibly on a sabbatical, during which I intended to rattle off a 400-page thriller and maybe have a romcom-style meet-cute in Central Park. Instead, I have found myself spiralling into hysteria, driven slowly mad by the New York subway. On first appearance, it is like the London underground – trains, tickets, announcements, the crush of bodies. But then, slowly, the entire system reveals itself to you. It is the work of a sadist, cooked up in a fever dream and delivered with a flourish and an unhinged grin. I cannot believe I am about to type these words, but here we are: New York’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority has made me homesick for Transport for London. And I will never forgive New York for this...
Read More: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ground-mta-map
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 11:58 AM   #4453
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More Posters: http://americainclass.org/sources/be...wayposters.pdf

Source: http://americainclass.org/sources/be...ext7/text7.htm
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 02:28 PM   #4454
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The train is shut down overnight next week. The ENTIRE LINE.
There's only two stations that are adversely affected by the 3 shutdown - 145/Lenox and 148/Lenox.

The 4/5 can just as easily take over the 3 along New Lots, and perhaps 135/Lenox can be reconfigured to allow a 5 car shuttle to operate between 135 and 148.

In fact, that said, why not just kill the 3 and 5 permanently, allowing the 2 and 4 to hit 30tph or more with CBTC and an exclusive pair of tracks for their own use? Some peak hour 2 trains can start out of 148 or Dyre like the extra Rockaway Park A trains, or northbound 2s can alternate between 241 and Dyre like the A...
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:07 AM   #4455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
There is no question we are nearing the end of 24/7 service.

On any given night, 75% of the system is shut down, so it's not that much of a leap to 100%.
There is absolutely no way. I'm not denying things are bad, but 75% is a huge exaggeration
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 08:48 PM   #4456
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Cross-Section on Sixth Avenue at Thirty-third Street, New York.

1. Foot Passage

2. Manhattan Elevated Railroad

3. Street Surface and Metropolitan Street Railway

4. New Rapid Transit Subway

5. Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Station

6. Pennsylvania Railroad Tunnel

Read More: http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Wo...er-Part-3.html
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Old August 4th, 2017, 12:19 AM   #4457
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There's only two stations that are adversely affected by the 3 shutdown - 145/Lenox and 148/Lenox.

The 4/5 can just as easily take over the 3 along New Lots, and perhaps 135/Lenox can be reconfigured to allow a 5 car shuttle to operate between 135 and 148.

In fact, that said, why not just kill the 3 and 5 permanently, allowing the 2 and 4 to hit 30tph or more with CBTC and an exclusive pair of tracks for their own use? Some peak hour 2 trains can start out of 148 or Dyre like the extra Rockaway Park A trains, or northbound 2s can alternate between 241 and Dyre like the A...
Because when the 5 does not run, 149th -Grand Concourse is a madhouse. Even from 11pm-1am, the station is ridiculously crowded. I live along the 2 and 5 and am a short bus ride away from the D and 4. I have to live these things.

The 5 exists to balance things out when it comes to passenger load.
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Old August 4th, 2017, 05:53 AM   #4458
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Because when the 5 does not run, 149th -Grand Concourse is a madhouse. Even from 11pm-1am, the station is ridiculously crowded. I live along the 2 and 5 and am a short bus ride away from the D and 4. I have to live these things.

The 5 exists to balance things out when it comes to passenger load.
I would think that with >30tph on the 2 and 4 during rush hours, the crowd at the station would be more smooth-going. Besides, roughly what's the load on the expresses between 167 and Burnside?

In an ideal world I'd add a 4th track to White Plains between 149 and E180 to fully separate out the 2 and 5, and let the 5 run express whenever it goes to White Plains. Maybe even with a new connecting curve allowing 5 trains to skip the sharp bend at 149th.

But if they do kill the 5, perhaps they could combine it with a upgrade of 149th - fill in the middle track at the 4, wider platforms on the 2, more/ wider staircases, and maybe more escalators.

All this is just theoretical, of course, but I'd like to hear your input.
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Old August 6th, 2017, 02:02 AM   #4459
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Originally Posted by mrsmartman View Post
New York’s subway is so hellish, I’m homesick for London’s underground

I am a city girl, accustomed to negotiating public transport, but faced with MTA’s needlessly complex map and messy signage, I become an overawed simpleton



Read More: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ground-mta-map
This article was written in 2014 and details one person's whining opinion. Hardly relevant to rational discussion. Sheesh!
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Old August 6th, 2017, 04:19 PM   #4460
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despite that, there are some valid points like lack of departure boards and dirty stations that are objectively true. And likewise, while this is just one person's anecdotes, they join the chorus of similar complaints from tourists and newcomers about the complex system and lack of help from signs, maps, staff, locals, etc.

Has the NYC Subway fixed these issues in the last 3 years? If not then the age of the article is irrelevant. OK, departure boards have come in recently at a handful of stations, but there's still not a lot.
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