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Old August 6th, 2017, 04:40 PM   #4461
JohnDee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
despite that, there are some valid points like lack of departure boards and dirty stations that are objectively true. And likewise, while this is just one person's anecdotes, they join the chorus of similar complaints from tourists and newcomers about the complex system and lack of help from signs, maps, staff, locals, etc.

Has the NYC Subway fixed these issues in the last 3 years? If not then the age of the article is irrelevant. OK, departure boards have come in recently at a handful of stations, but there's still not a lot.
System is very easy to use if you can read a map. most tourists aren't idiots.

The comparison is unfair as London gets far more money to upgrade it's stations because London is the capital of the UK where all the big projects and money go.. centralized economy.
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Old August 6th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #4462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
despite that, there are some valid points like lack of departure boards and dirty stations that are objectively true. And likewise, while this is just one person's anecdotes, they join the chorus of similar complaints from tourists and newcomers about the complex system and lack of help from signs, maps, staff, locals, etc.

Has the NYC Subway fixed these issues in the last 3 years? If not then the age of the article is irrelevant. OK, departure boards have come in recently at a handful of stations, but there's still not a lot.
Countdown clocks are coming to all the trains that don't currently have them. Countdown clocks have been on the 1,2,3,4,5,6 and L for a while now, so that leaves the 7 and the rest of the letters.

The R and C now have countdown clocks in all stations as of a few weeks ago. The A and the N, Q, and W have some as well but not in all stations yet.

The MTA is expected to have them on all lines by the end of the year. They released a schedule for when each train is going to get them. I saw it a few weeks ago but I can't seem to find it anymore for the life of me. If someone can find it I would really appreciate it if you could post here. I'll try to look some more. IIRC, the J and the F are expected to get them in November, and the M either this month or September. I think the G is also supposed to be getting them this month too. Again, I'm just going by memory though. I'm going to see if I can find it again.
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Old August 6th, 2017, 11:26 PM   #4463
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That's good news and should actually beat London on that front soon, where there's a handful of stations on the edge that don't have them, and other places where they are truly terrible.

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Originally Posted by JohnDee View Post
System is very easy to use if you can read a map. most tourists aren't idiots.
There's a reason KickMap can charge $2.99 for the NYC version, and only the default $0.99 for the other cities' maps in the App Store - the official MTA map is overly-complicated and KickMap's far more usable, whereas the other cities' official maps are fine and the KickMap of the city mostly is interesting, rather than providing usefulness.

Scientific research has the official NYC map the worst in the world for usability, though part of that is the complexity of the network (still loses to Tokyo and Paris' complex spaghetti). No wonder that even the MTA's Weekender goes diagrammatic (seemingly copying KickMap, rather than Vingelli) rather than using the standard map - it's far easier to understand.

Tourist aren't idiots, hence why they typically complain about the map being crap.
Quote:
The comparison is unfair as London gets far more money to upgrade it's stations
I'm not talking about station upgrades.
Quote:
because London is the capital of the UK where all the big projects
I'm not talking about big projects either.
Quote:
and money go.
I'm not talking about expensive things. Sure, cleaning the system more often will cost money. Likewise additional signs and diagrams will add up, however we're not talking big-ticket items individually.

The NYC Subway is fantastic. However it's daunting and confusing if you don't what you are doing, because you get very little help.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 03:28 AM   #4464
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Originally Posted by nylkoorB View Post

The MTA is expected to have them on all lines by the end of the year. They released a schedule for when each train is going to get them. I saw it a few weeks ago but I can't seem to find it anymore for the life of me. If someone can find it I would really appreciate it if you could post here. I'll try to look some more. IIRC, the J and the F are expected to get them in November, and the M either this month or September. I think the G is also supposed to be getting them this month too. Again, I'm just going by memory though. I'm going to see if I can find it again.
Here it is. This and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.



Like any MTA pronouncement, this should be taken with a very heavy dose of NaCl.

http://licpost.com/subway-countdown-...ne-in-december
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Old August 7th, 2017, 06:33 PM   #4465
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New York Today: New Subway Clocks

The Times has the same story on the countdown clocks.

This is a small bright spot and really a smart project. Based on the earlier successful relatively cheap roll-out of bustime, the project decouples best effort information from critical signal infrastructure roll-out.

The information signs don't need the same high standards of accuracy, and even at the current 97% accuracy are already a huge boon. With the roll-out of wifi at all underground stations, it becomes feasible to install bluetooth beacons on the trains cheaply and have the stations forward this to a central system.

A simple solution, but a huge advance over the old lack of any central information about train location.

I happened to have to travel to JFK yesterday morning early. No E service to JFK, so only the A with headways of 25 minutes or so. This was a lifesaver. Could get a coffee and walk into W4 a few minutes early, as opposed to run with a bag, then wait around a dirty, humid platform for eternity, without coffee.

Great work, whoever stuck his or her neck out for this one.

Okay, end of rant (rave!). Back to the quote and then our regular scheduled program of MTA bashing.

Per the Times:

Quote:
A New York Times analysis of subway data found a shortage of trains not only at peak times but throughout the day.

Given this dim outlook, we set out to find a bright spot, something to make us feel good on our Monday morning commute. We found it in the glowing LED clocks along the C line that were recently installed by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

We spoke to Veronique Hakim, the managing director of the transportation authority, about the new clocks and when you can expect them in your station.

The clocks use new technology. How does it work?

The recently installed clocks use the existing wireless network, rather than the previous system on the numbered lines, which used the signal network. Bluetooth receivers are installed in stations and on the front and back car of each train, which act “almost like little GPS devices,” Ms. Hakim said. The transportation authority monitors when trains enter and leave the station, and uses that information to display their estimated arrival times at the next station.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 06:38 PM   #4466
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Whoever thinks the current NYC subway map design is difficult has no clue how hard it used to be. This is the simplest it's ever been.

We've tried schematic designs. Didn't work.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 07:06 PM   #4467
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But what if there were something in between confusing and schematic

Oh wait there is


The KickMap
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Old August 7th, 2017, 07:59 PM   #4468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAronymous View Post
But what if there were something in between confusing and schematic

Oh wait there is


The KickMap
Geography being the first, main, problem. It's why the current version exists in the first place. Secondly, all those extra lines are unneeded and adds it's own type of clutter. Not to mention the font made for ants.

The whole purpose of the current design when born in 1979 was simplifying confusion. Grouping services that run under a specific trunk with single color with a single line. So that If I got on a train in Brooklyn, the color would tell me where I'd end up in Manhattan. I should not have to pass my eyes over 4 separate lines to find the service I need. In fact, I think the FIRST issue with the kickmap is the public non-awareness that lines and services are not synonymous. Lines are the physical parts. Services are the letters and numbers. Those change throughout the day. The purpose is to show the general service patterns from 6:30AM to about 11PM. There used to be service guide, but that was axed in 2010 to reduce clutter and give the map more space for clarity. Which did work. Before the 1967, the maps didn't show services. Only lines. THAT was confusing because you couldn't tell how anything ran.

The current iteration IS clear. It's simple. It's not like you have to guess where you'll end up in relation to geography.

New Yorkers asked for a redesign in the 70s because the Vignelli map was so hard to read and so geographically off, that if you asked any NYer today that was riding the subways back then about the map, the first thing they'd tell you is you couldn't read it. Movies have even made the joke. New Yorkers can now read the map. That's the only thing that matters. I feel like only transplants actually use the Kickmap as I have yet to meet a native, railfan or not, that uses it. And I'll take a map that properly shows me whether a station is express or local with a single white dot, versus a map that tries to clean up but makes its own mess in the process.

I'll just chalk it up to laziness. No one wants to take two extra seconds to actually read something. And then, will turn around and blame the map. Slow down and you'll see where you need to go. I can go on and on, but I'll stop here.

Simple.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #4469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillBuild View Post
I happened to have to travel to JFK yesterday morning early. No E service to JFK, so only the A with headways of 25 minutes or so. This was a lifesaver. Could get a coffee and walk into W4 a few minutes early, as opposed to run with a bag, then wait around a dirty, humid platform for eternity, without coffee.

Great work, whoever stuck his or her neck out for this one.

the Times:
That's only if it's working. Most of the time the app looks like this:



http://apps.mta.info/traintime3/
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Old August 7th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #4470
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Problem with the white dots=express station is that as a tourist you don't know which service is the express, which meant that I accidentally ended up in Harlem twice in the 5 days I was in New York.

The only metro system I have EVER gotten lost in is the NY subway.

With just a little bit of thought this could be fixed, it's not that difficult.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 08:25 PM   #4471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTA1992 View Post
Whoever thinks the current NYC subway map design is difficult has no clue how hard it used to be. This is the simplest it's ever been.
Getting better isn't the same as easy to use.
Quote:
We've tried schematic designs. Didn't work.
It did work but New Yorkers threw a wobbly and got a psuedo-geographical (in that it pretends to be geographical, but isn't and is thus misleading) map restored as that was what they were used to.

People will happily spend a couple of dollars on a map that is more schematic - showing that the current maps has problems. And the MTA itself uses schematic maps now to show closures and changes to service. Schematic maps work for the NYC Subway - the problem is the locals can't/won't use them and have the clout to block them, keeping the harder-to-use map as the main one at stations and the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by P2O5 View Post
Problem with the white dots=express station is that as a tourist you don't know which service is the express, which meant that I accidentally ended up in Harlem twice in the 5 days I was in New York.

The only metro system I have EVER gotten lost in is the NY subway.

With just a little bit of thought this could be fixed, it's not that difficult.
The INAT schematic, while a schematic (and flawed due to standardisation across the world), does this by the simple thing of two lines where there's express and local service - something that the official map could do fairly easily while keeping the current pseudo-geographical layout: http://www.inat.fr/metro/new-york No Kick Map style four line trunks (OK, where two trunks have both local and express service, then there's four lines)

Last edited by sotonsi; August 7th, 2017 at 08:31 PM.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 05:03 AM   #4472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P2O5 View Post
Problem with the white dots=express station is that as a tourist you don't know which service is the express, which meant that I accidentally ended up in Harlem twice in the 5 days I was in New York.

The only metro system I have EVER gotten lost in is the NY subway.

With just a little bit of thought this could be fixed, it's not that difficult.
Who cares about tourists? They don't live here and have to use the system on the regular. The goal is for us NYers to understand.

I didn't go to Paris and wonder why I couldn't tell where anything but the main landmarks were. I understand that there is absolutely no way you could show that system geographically and be clean. It's already been done.

Each system map is tailored towards that systems needs. The New York map is no different.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 10:03 AM   #4473
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Quote:
Some photos from Last week

IND Culver Line

Smith - 9th Street













Avenue N





BMT Brighton Line

Avenue M



Beverly Road





Looking South at Cortelyou Road Station



Church Ave



Prospect Park





IND Second Avenue Line

72nd Street



96th Street , Downtown Q train





IND 8th Avenue Line

96th Street



IRT West Side Line

Downtown 1 train at 218th Street





South Ferry





...
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Old August 8th, 2017, 02:25 PM   #4474
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What New York Subway Stations Actually Look Like











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Old August 8th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #4475
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Very interesting
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Old August 8th, 2017, 07:26 PM   #4476
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Renderings of new entrances to the First Avenue station on the L.


http://evgrieve.com/2017/08/renderin...or-avenue.html
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Old August 9th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #4477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Here it is. This and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.



Like any MTA pronouncement, this should be taken with a very heavy dose of NaCl.

http://licpost.com/subway-countdown-...ne-in-december
Thank you for finding this! So far the R and the C got theirs on schedule, so I'm feeling optimistic about the rest.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 01:10 AM   #4478
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Hey they surprised us with the Wi-Fi and cell service, that was quicker than expected.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 06:51 AM   #4479
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Hey they surprised us with the Wi-Fi and cell service, that was quicker than expected.
I mean, are you surprised? It uses the already established WiFi network. And they had a year to test it.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 11:02 AM   #4480
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Random thought: Why not convert the Franklin Ave shuttle to A Division standard, and allow a common automated train system to be deployed on both the 42St and Franklin shuttles?
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