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Old August 10th, 2017, 04:32 PM   #4481
LTA1992
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Originally Posted by luacstjh98 View Post
Random thought: Why not convert the Franklin Ave shuttle to A Division standard, and allow a common automated train system to be deployed on both the 42St and Franklin shuttles?
Because there's no point.

CBTC, so far in this city, is built by Thales and Siemens. Siemens did Canarsie. Thales did Flushing. Both are doing Queens Boulevard and I think from here on out, both will work together on CBTC projects.

If Mitsubishi passes their tests, they too, will be a supplier.

The whole point of the Culver test track, where a single R160A-1 tests new CBTC technology, is for the different suppliers to be evaluated and see how the different systems work in tandem. So that they can all build projects together and get this thing out as quickly as possible.

My point? The A Division will use whatever system the B Division uses.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 04:35 PM   #4482
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Because there aren't any A Division lines within the immediate area of the Franklin Ave. shuttle, and because it operates shorter trains.

Also, because the unions got VERY upset the last time somebody tried to automate the 42nd Street shuttle.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 05:12 PM   #4483
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Originally Posted by LTA1992 View Post
Because there's no point.

CBTC, so far in this city, is built by Thales and Siemens. Siemens did Canarsie. Thales did Flushing. Both are doing Queens Boulevard and I think from here on out, both will work together on CBTC projects.

If Mitsubishi passes their tests, they too, will be a supplier.

The whole point of the Culver test track, where a single R160A-1 tests new CBTC technology, is for the different suppliers to be evaluated and see how the different systems work in tandem. So that they can all build projects together and get this thing out as quickly as possible.

My point? The A Division will use whatever system the B Division uses.
I believe both the Thales and Siemens CBTC solutions have a facility to allow for GoA 4 full unmanned operation. I presume the Canarsie Line is using ATO?

By "common system" I mean a common type of cabless, driverless train where there's no cab, the RFW returns, and maybe a half-cab for the conductor should he need to take control. Alternatively, it can be station staff who close doors and give the automated train the right to proceed, monitoring the platform via CCTV.

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Because there aren't any A Division lines within the immediate area of the Franklin Ave. shuttle, and because it operates shorter trains.

Also, because the unions got VERY upset the last time somebody tried to automate the 42nd Street shuttle.
Technically there aren't any A Division lines within the immediate area of the Flushing Line either. And since the 42St shuttle uses 3 IRT cars which are about the same length as the 2 R68s on the shuttle, so it would just be a matter of ordering the same type of train for both and moving the R68s somewhere else (or even retiring them).

I'm also aware of the fact that they plan to rebuild the shuttle to 6 cars, so perhaps two "Auto-trains" would form a set for the 42St shuttle, while single "Auto-train" sets run the Franklin Shuttle. Heck, maybe they could automate the Dyre shuttle as well.

I believe the shuttles already use OPTO, so it would just be a matter of changing the operator's job scope so that he becomes a conductor, but can take over operation in an emergency.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 05:43 PM   #4484
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The 42nd St Shuttle must be a very annoying roster to work.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 05:49 PM   #4485
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Quote:
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Also, because the unions got VERY upset the last time somebody tried to automate the 42nd Street shuttle.
True. I recall reading somewhere that the 42nd St shuttle fire of April 21, 1964 was suspected arson, potentially union sabotage. Can't find the source though.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 05:52 PM   #4486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luacstjh98 View Post
I believe both the Thales and Siemens CBTC solutions have a facility to allow for GoA 4 full unmanned operation. I presume the Canarsie Line is using ATO?

By "common system" I mean a common type of cabless, driverless train where there's no cab, the RFW returns, and maybe a half-cab for the conductor should he need to take control. Alternatively, it can be station staff who close doors and give the automated train the right to proceed, monitoring the platform via CCTV.
They can run unmanned. The motorman is there in case something goes wrong. Which does happen. Our system is too complex and too important to take that risk right now. Especially with the Red Line accident in DC taking place a year after CBTC started running on Canarsie nearly 10 years ago.

Secondly, the system is a long way off from full automation and many sections of automated line will run into non-automated lines so the switch still needs to happen. Even right now on Flushing, CBTC is already functional on the line between Main Street and 74th Street, switching to manual after that point. The rest of the line will not become active until early 2018 after months of testing. If the transition is ever made, we probably won't see the first cabless trains until 2050-70 at the earliest. The first reason being that the oldest Millennium trains are not going to be replaced until the 2040s. By then, by my estimation of the current pace, only half the total mileage of the system will be CBTC enabled. The guess comes from the MTA estimating that they expect to have 335 Miles of track upgraded to CBTC by 2029. Which I personally don't see unless they get the actual amount they need from the State to do that. Which I also don't see happening as long as Upstate has a say in our transit affairs. So their replacements will need to have a cab. Which puts the possible end of cars with cabs at 2100-ish.

Third, if we are going to keep guys on the train, then half cabs won't work. If you're going to do OPTO, full cabs are a requirement as the motorman would need to look out onto the platform. Currently, the only manual operation on CBTC trains are when the conductor operates the doors. There would be no cost incentive either to have a guy on every single platform to open and close the doors. That's already double the manpower as you'd need two people per station to do that.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 06:18 PM   #4487
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Sigh.

NYC Subway: There's always a reason why not
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Old August 10th, 2017, 07:35 PM   #4488
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Sigh.

NYC Subway: There's always a reason why not
I like to differentiate the excuses side with the practical side. What I mentioned was practical.

Most of the time, we claim we can't do something because it just won't work here and give a bs reason as to why.

When it comes to cabless cars, these lines are being done piece by piece and many services share yards and rolling stock. It's operationally disadvantageous to have the two types in the same yard so early in the game. So it only makes sense to preform that transition once an entire yards services are able to be transitioned.

The thing with that is, going off the MTAs timeline, it will be a LONG time past 2040-50 before cabless cars appear anywhere other than the 7 and L. Because according to said timeline, the outermost vestiges of the system (where the yards are located, mind you) would be the last to become CBTC operated. My educational guess would put it around 2100 as I said before. Because there's also the thing where the MTA can't really retire cars early unless there is some kind of operational disadvantage and the cost to fix said disadvantage not being worth it.

Take the R27/R30 for example. They were retired early because they sucked operationally and they had no A/C. Seeing that they were small in number and therefore, their absence would have no adverse effects, it was decided to retire them 10 years early. I mean, we are currently suffering from a shortage as a result (as well as the premature retirement of the R44 that won't be fixed until the R211s arrive, so, by 2026) because no one thought ridership would bounce back this much after the MetroCard was introduced, but, you know. Hindsight is 20/20.

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Old August 10th, 2017, 08:19 PM   #4489
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If they could rebuild some of the largest and busiest stations in the network in the style of South Ferry, the system would aesthetically appear much more appealing to a lot more people.

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Old August 10th, 2017, 11:10 PM   #4490
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Replace art with sterility? They did that already and luckily, realized their mistake before it went beyond the Broadway and 4th Avenue Lines. Even corrected the issue on every Broadway Line station Canal Street and above as well as Whitehall Street.

34th Street-Hudson Yards got it right, I think. All new stations need THAT sort of tile work.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 11:21 PM   #4491
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The comparison is unfair as London gets far more money to upgrade it's stations because London is the capital of the UK where all the big projects and money go.. centralized economy.
I have a question though, why isn't the NYC subway receiving the funding it needs if cities like London can? I mean NYC is the same size as London anyway! Thousands of people rely on this system to work on any given day. Why does the USA in general have issues with funding public transport (or it at least appears to me)?
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Old August 11th, 2017, 12:26 AM   #4492
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I have a question though, why isn't the NYC subway receiving the funding it needs if cities like London can? I mean NYC is the same size as London anyway! Thousands of people rely on this system to work on any given day. Why does the USA in general have issues with funding public transport (or it at least appears to me)?
There is a difference though. London is the capital of the UK and thus, they HAVE to give Transport for London funds. Without that system, the capital can't function.

New York City's subway is owned by the city, but leased to the MTA. The MTA is a State run agency. Albany tends to cater more towards Upstate voters than Downstate voters. Somehow, Albany can find money for the new Tappan Zee, Kosciusko, Geothals Bridges, revamp LaGuardia Airport and give it the shittiest rail connection the world has ever seen, new Port Authority Bus Terminal, and other things to help people leave, but not find money for what is one of this states greatest assets? An asset that keeps 58 percent of it's largest city on the move?

Instead, they take more money away. Our ridiculous excuse for a Governor doesn't even want to take responsibility but has no issue showing his punchable face when good occurs.

Then there's the auto-centric mindset of the US itself.

The biggest thing I see is, LOS AGELES of all places is building a new rail network. If the King of Cars can do it, what's stopping us?

Politics and money. Mostly politics.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 04:09 AM   #4493
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Everyone hates on LA, but traffic in LA is even worse in some ways than NYC, less tight side streets, and more main thoroughfares, but more gridlock on the gigantic
highway system. They basically don't have a ton of choice, they've built out their roads as much and more than NYC. Let them try having a few more metro lines.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 05:23 AM   #4494
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Quote:
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I have a question though, why isn't the NYC subway receiving the funding it needs if cities like London can? I mean NYC is the same size as London anyway! Thousands of people rely on this system to work on any given day. Why does the USA in general have issues with funding public transport (or it at least appears to me)?
Because it's up to New York STATE and not the actual city. New York City doesn't actually have that power. Albany does. In the UK, London is the capital, so it's much easier for them to get the funding.

Going into New York State politics, NY is a big State outside of NYC. There is an Upstate/Downstate political rivalry. Albany has to try to please both sides, so everything comes with a political battle. We win some, but we also lose some. You're 100% right that the USA in general does not care about public transit. NYC is the exception, but unfortunately that decision is not up to us.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 02:57 PM   #4495
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There is a difference though. London is the capital of the UK and thus, they HAVE to give Transport for London funds. Without that system, the capital can't function.
Which is why central Government is entirely cutting the grant that tops up what Londoners pay themselves in tax and fares in 8 months time???

TfL raises money locally for local services. They are becoming increasingly parochial and negative towards places they serve outside the GLA area because of it (which isn't an issue for NYC subway funding as the subway doesn't leave city limits)
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Because it's up to New York STATE and not the actual city. New York City doesn't actually have that power.
It has power to raise taxes in the city - and more so than the Greater London Authority.
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In the UK, London is the capital, so it's much easier for them to get the funding.
It's like getting blood out of a stone. TfL gets its money locally from fares and taxes, rather than central Government grants.
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Going into New York State politics, NY is a big State outside of NYC. There is an Upstate/Downstate political rivalry.
The UK has that too - hence why TfL's money from the UK government has dried up.
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Old August 11th, 2017, 04:00 PM   #4496
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Third, if we are going to keep guys on the train, then half cabs won't work. If you're going to do OPTO, full cabs are a requirement as the motorman would need to look out onto the platform. Currently, the only manual operation on CBTC trains are when the conductor operates the doors. There would be no cost incentive either to have a guy on every single platform to open and close the doors. That's already double the manpower as you'd need two people per station to do that.
CCTVs, piped directly into the cab monitors? London Underground does that with the 09TS and the S Stock, maybe a few other operators too. During peak hours, platform attendants can also be deployed at the busier stations, or stations built on curves, to assist the train operator in determining whether it's safe to close the doors, by raising some kind of visual indicator on the CCTV.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 04:40 AM   #4497
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Which is why central Government is entirely cutting the grant that tops up what Londoners pay themselves in tax and fares in 8 months time???

TfL raises money locally for local services. They are becoming increasingly parochial and negative towards places they serve outside the GLA area because of it (which isn't an issue for NYC subway funding as the subway doesn't leave city limits)
It has power to raise taxes in the city - and more so than the Greater London Authority.It's like getting blood out of a stone. TfL gets its money locally from fares and taxes, rather than central Government grants.
The UK has that too - hence why TfL's money from the UK government has dried up.
Two small things:

1. NYC subway doesn't leave the city limits, but the subway is only part of the MTA, which also includes MetroNorth and LIRR. Both of which go far beyond city limits.

2. Yes, NYC has the power to raise taxes in the city, but it still doesn't get to control how much money Albany puts back into the MTA. The MTA is notoriously underfunded by the State government and it's becoming more of a public issue in recent years.
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Old August 12th, 2017, 09:11 AM   #4498
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Con Ed to overhaul subway power distribution



A subway switchboard
Photo: Flickr/Matt Blaze

Source: http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/170819993
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Old August 12th, 2017, 12:42 PM   #4499
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Two small things:

2. Yes, NYC has the power to raise taxes in the city, but it still doesn't get to control how much money Albany puts back into the MTA. The MTA is notoriously underfunded by the State government and it's becoming more of a public issue in recent years.
Is that even true? It would appear there are specific types of tax increases that NYC has to get approval for from the State Legislature - I really don't understand why home rule is so complicated a thing in so many states.

I also don't know if the city has the authority to pass the types of bond measures other cities (LA, Seattle, Phoenix, etc) have done recently...to say nothing of congestion charging, and - if they do have the authority to do so - why they haven't done so.
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Old August 13th, 2017, 03:43 AM   #4500
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Is that even true? It would appear there are specific types of tax increases that NYC has to get approval for from the State Legislature - I really don't understand why home rule is so complicated a thing in so many states.

I also don't know if the city has the authority to pass the types of bond measures other cities (LA, Seattle, Phoenix, etc) have done recently...to say nothing of congestion charging, and - if they do have the authority to do so - why they haven't done so.
Funny, I just saw this article right after I read your reply.

https://nytimes.com/2017/08/11/opini...muter-tax.html

It talks about an old suburban commuter tax that used to be in place in NY for people that worked in the city but lived in the suburbs. The State got rid of it in 1999.

I'm sure the city has some power on this issue, but the State obviously has more power than the city. Everyone that lives here knows that we already pay a lot of taxes just to live/work here, but I wouldn't mind paying a little bit more to fund the subways.
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Last edited by nylkoorB; August 13th, 2017 at 12:09 PM. Reason: Typos
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