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Old September 13th, 2017, 10:29 PM   #4541
00Zy99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danton05 View Post
Well, that does seem like terrible planning, doesnt it? How much money could have been saved on East Side Access if MTA owned LIRR and Metro-North could share some of the 44 existing platform at Grand Central instead of digging new ones beneath them?

Obviously it would have been easier if it had been done a long time ago, but it'll still be better to start reforming now than at some point in the future.
The three agencies inherited the decaying remnants of eight different private railroad companies (several shut down entirely before public operation).

Again, the technical specifications and layouts, as well as the different traffic patterns, make through running very difficult.


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Sure, and most traffic is headed to central London/Paris/Munich too, but through-running Crossrail/RER/S-bahn lines still offer much better capacity and service and do so cheaper.
There is occasionally some talk of through-running Metro-North New Haven Line trains onto the NJ Transit Northeast Corridor line once the Penn Station Access opens up. But the traffic flows would be difficult to schedule.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 11:07 PM   #4542
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The big problem isn't cross-city center routes, but cross-river routes. Penn station isn't overly hard to convert to through running, but there are difficulties with rail capacity to take LIRR trains to NJ and NJT trains to Queens. Hence ARC and ESA schemes on NJT and LIRR respectively - the problem is cross-river capacity. That said, building very expensive underground termini isn't a good idea.

That said, the flows are rather peak-direction heavy, and so it might be possible now, without new Hudson Tunnels as there's space counter-peak, with the right rolling stock and some changes to Penn station, though those proposers feel new Hudson tunnels is an essential part of their proposal for through-running.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 04:28 AM   #4543
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It's easy to SAY "run trains through Penn Station", but the precise configuration makes that an EXTREMELY complicated endeavor. The tracks aren't configured to allow it.

Take a look starting at the third post down:

http://www.thelirrtoday.com/search/l...erminal%20Zone

edit, also here:

http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/01/...-by-track.html

http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/01/...n-station.html

edit:

And here's a track map for further reference:

http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1308882
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Old September 14th, 2017, 11:09 AM   #4544
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those links all show that Penn station's tracks are already configured as a thru station, albeit some of the northernmost tracks only running 'thru' to West Side Yards, rather than New Jersey.

The tracks at Penn aren't the problem - there's plenty of them that one can get from New Jersey to Long Island to theoretically, if it weren't for the actual engineering issues like electrification, different train sizes, and most difficultly - the lack of capacity either side of the station.

But even these physical problems pale into insignificance compared to the political ones: the happiness to blow billions on new underground termini, the pretence that there's no demand for counterpeak service to Sunnyside/Secaucus, inter-agency cooperation, etc.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 01:41 PM   #4545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danton05 View Post
Well, that does seem like terrible planning, doesnt it? How much money could have been saved on East Side Access if MTA owned LIRR and Metro-North could share some of the 44 existing platform at Grand Central instead of digging new ones beneath them?
I believe it was said that running the LIRR into the main GCT platforms was impossible because the 63rd Street Tunnel was too deep and the LIRR trains wouldn't be able to climb the incline.

One wonders whether it would have been possible if the subway and LIRR were flipped, with the LIRR running above the subway instead of below. Although that would have made Lex/63 a lot more complicated to build.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #4546
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those links all show that Penn station's tracks are already configured as a thru station, albeit some of the northernmost tracks only running 'thru' to West Side Yards, rather than New Jersey.

The tracks at Penn aren't the problem - there's plenty of them that one can get from New Jersey to Long Island to theoretically, if it weren't for the actual engineering issues like electrification, different train sizes, and most difficultly - the lack of capacity either side of the station.

But even these physical problems pale into insignificance compared to the political ones: the happiness to blow billions on new underground termini, the pretence that there's no demand for counterpeak service to Sunnyside/Secaucus, inter-agency cooperation, etc.
Look a little closer.

The tracks used by the Long Island are on the other side of the station from the tracks used by NJ Transit. And no, it wouldn't really be practical to just "shift things up". The tunnels under the East River are configured to send Long Island trains into the northern platforms at PSNY, and Sunnyside Yard/New England trains into the central platforms.

This means that any through NJT trains headed to AND FROM Long Island would have to cut across the path of all westbound Amtrak trains.

Because of the Empire Connection and the West Side Yard, it is impractical for a new Hudson River tunnel to emerge on the north side of the station.

Trying to reconfigure the East River tunnels to solve this problem would mean a very massive, expensive, headache dealing with the complex interlockings at HAROLD in Queens constructing new tunnels, flyovers, etc..

Shifting things around like that would also mandate a massive reconstruction of the underground concourses that would essentially be a new Penn Station. Not that that isn't needed anyways, but its an additional cost and complexity dealing with Madison Square Garden.

In its own mad way, Penn Station operates with all of the finery of a Swiss watch. Bulldozing a new path through its heart would be very difficult. That's why the current plans call for adding the new Hudson River tunnel on the south side of the station, feeding into new, southerly, platforms, thereby keeping the new traffic flow from disrupting the existing mechanisms as little as possible.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 09:33 PM   #4547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
The tracks used by the Long Island are on the other side of the station from the tracks used by NJ Transit.
Well duh!
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And no, it wouldn't really be practical to just "shift things up".
Why would one need to shift things up when very few tracks (just #20&21, AFAICS) cannot be accessed from the current tunnel under the Hudson?
Quote:
The tunnels under the East River are configured to send Long Island trains into the northern platforms at PSNY, and Sunnyside Yard/New England trains into the central platforms.
Though the interlocking on Long Island allows more flexibility and both tunnels have access to both routes. The reason for the current set up is to avoid LIRR to/from West Side Yards conflicts with Amtrack.
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This means that any through NJT trains headed to AND FROM Long Island would have to cut across the path of all westbound Amtrak trains.
This nightmare scenario only exists if you keep the nonsense idea that NJT trains must use the southern platforms and LIRR the northern ones, avoiding that would solve one direction. And, of course, for LIRR trains to use the southern tracks (south of where NEC trains stop), as they do now, they'd have to cross Amtrack services at-grade in one-direction anyway!
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Trying to reconfigure the East River tunnels to solve this problem would mean a very massive, expensive, headache dealing with the complex interlockings at HAROLD in Queens constructing new tunnels, flyovers, etc..
Which is why one could take a different solution, such as one simple single flyunder/over that swaps the middle two tunnels over, meaning that Penn is sorted by direction. However, mucking about with HAROLD can't be that bad or expensive - after all there's already two schemes doing it - the upgrade and the East Side Access.

And the reason why this interlocking is complex and expensive to deal with is that it provides the accesses you say don't exist: the upgrade is needed to allow a conflict-free route for Amtrack through the southern tunnels, though an existing route via the northern tunnels only has conflict in one direction with LIC/Hunterspoint Av trains..
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Because of the Empire Connection and the West Side Yard, it is impractical for a new Hudson River tunnel to emerge on the north side of the station.
Why would it need to emerge on the north side of the station? It would merely need to connect to the existing station, rather than a new dead-end stub terminus.
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Bulldozing a new path through its heart would be very difficult.
Which no through-running proposal is suggesting!
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That's why the current plans call for adding the new Hudson River tunnel on the south side of the station, feeding into new, southerly, platforms, thereby keeping the new traffic flow from disrupting the existing mechanisms as little as possible.
In other words, keep building massively expensive and disruptive termini in Midtown rather than use assets that are already there and new turnback facilities in less expensive places - preferably with station infrastructure as well.

And, of course, such schemes mean disrupting and mucking about with complex junctions to tie the new termini with the mainline - eg the ESA at HAROLD, which you think is impossible.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 01:00 AM   #4548
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...and.. could I add my 2 cents worth? Thank you..

None of what anyone is suggesting will happen because the MTA has $10 BILLION tied up in the construction of the East Side Access

Keep dreaming though.

MTA and LIRR East Side Access cost and schedule continue to change

..finished by 2025...maybe???
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Old September 15th, 2017, 02:17 AM   #4549
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I love the NYC subway ABOVE ALL its fantastic 24/7 service!!!
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Old September 15th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #4550
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Through routing is most useful for connecting and integrating LIRR and NJT for revenue service.

There might not be enough ridership to justify extending NJT trains to Port Morris but increasing the pressure on the cross-river tunnels.

Usually, there are several stations along the through-routing section in the business center to distribute passengers efficiently.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 04:21 PM   #4551
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From Facebook:









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and my Flickr at:

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Old September 15th, 2017, 07:31 PM   #4552
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Quote:
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Believe me, I do my fair share of complaining about the MTA when they deserve it, and they do deserve a LOT of it as there are many problems with the MTA. I do not work for the MTA and I have no ulterior motives. The claim that not all lines run at night is false. Another person tried to post pictures of workers mopping the floor and pretend that they were leaks — and on a dry day too. I wish the MTA paid me to point out blatantly false claims on the internet, but they don't.

I guess the fact that I don't feel the need to complain and make up false claims and non-existent issues makes me a shill. If you really want to complain that badly, then why not complain about a real issue that actually exists? There are plenty and I never denied that.

Oh, shoot! There goes my MTA check right there...
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Old September 15th, 2017, 07:41 PM   #4553
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If Miami Beach can flood on a sunny day, then why can't the MTA NYC Subway leak on a sunny day? The floors on the connection between the 4/5/6 and 7 lines at Grand Central (the ones at the intermediate levels that connect to the middle of the 7 platform, at the bottom of the inclined hallway) are perpetually wet regardless of the weather.

As infants, we all learn "object permanence", but as adults we tend to somehow unlearn it. But it's worth repeating: ignoring the problem does not mean it's not there.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #4554
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Not sure if you're joking or not, but you do realize that's from the workers washing the floor right? Leaks don't look like that. Leaks have localized puddles and aren't a small coating like that. Plus it hasn't rained in NY for about a week or so.
take a look at this:

Quote:
It was not raining outside, but they were getting drenched below ground as they took the escalator from the lower mezzanine level to the upper floor where the turnstiles are — about 80 feet above.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2578830
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Old September 15th, 2017, 11:30 PM   #4555
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I'm not saying that leaks never happen. I've experienced leaking stations before many times. The pictures in question were about the newly renovated station in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn — not Hudson Yards. And the claim was that the station was already experiencing leaking on Day 1 of being reopened, when it was clearly just workers mopping the floor. And these pictures were taken from the official MTA flickr account, no less. Like the MTA would be proudly showing off something like that on their flickr.

Edit: Just realized that you were the one that posted those pictures and that you're still trying to claim that they are leaks. Do you really think the MTA would be posting that on their official Flickr account and just showing it off to the world? There's no puddles or buckets or anything either. What happened was they probably just decided to mop the floor in order to try to make it look nice for the picture for Flickr.
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Old September 16th, 2017, 12:26 AM   #4556
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Station renovations on the Astoria line are next. 30th avenue and 36th avenue N W stations are shutting down starting next month for the following 8 months. Then next summer Broadway and 39th Avenue will be the next 2 stations to undergo renovations.

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/9/15/1631...-shut-down-mta
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Old September 17th, 2017, 07:06 PM   #4557
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Hudson Yards is such a massive, overwhelming development. Sometimes I worry that it'll be too much for the 7 train to handle alone. It's already a very crowded train service as is. The A C E being nearby certainly will help, but since the 7 is the only subway train with direct access to HY, it's going to have to handle a very extra large load. Hopefully the planned CBTC will be beneficial.
I just found this article. It's about a month old already, but according to the MTA, CBTC controls for the 7 is expected to be complete before 2018 — as of last month at least. I was just looking at some Hudson Yards threads and that's how I started thinking about this.

http://www.amny.com/transit/7-train-...ays-1.14080694

Edit: Does anyone know if there are any other future plans for CBTC controls on other subway trains? Whether you love or hate the L train, you really can notice a higher frequency on it compared to other trains and that's thanks to the CBTC technology.
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Old September 18th, 2017, 02:20 AM   #4558
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Didn't someone say CBTC was already up between 74th and Flushing?

(also, really, a 10th Avenue extension of the L might also help - but they better build out the SAS first)
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Old September 18th, 2017, 03:39 AM   #4559
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Hudson yards ridership is terrible so far I wouldn't worry about capacity
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Old September 18th, 2017, 06:38 PM   #4560
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Quote:
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Hudson yards ridership is terrible so far I wouldn't worry about capacity
There's barely anything there yet
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