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Old November 22nd, 2017, 02:57 AM   #4621
DaeguDuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiogiorgini View Post
Did you read the article? The problem is not that the New York Subway needs to be automated, it's that funding has been cut while ridership has soared, money has been spectacularly misspent and corruption abounds. Besides the breakdowns and delays, New York has the grimiest stations in the civilized world and is only now planning things like RFID ticketing or open-gangway trains, which have been standard everywhere else for years. So I wouldn't hold my breath for automation (and think of the unions).


I did read the article, and I doubt that open gangway trains or RFID ticketing would improve reliability in any way, nor would they repair crumbling infrastructure. Breakdowns and delays are a bigger problem imo than grimy stations (which would be a relatively easy thing to fix). Did you read the article?

My point on automation was more that the subway needs to look at how other older subway systems have upgraded (itís silly to compare it to systems that are ~20 miles long and were built this century), including new trains and signalling. If youíre upgrading trains and signalling you should be automating, the unions will grumble but at the end of the day you need to reduce running costs over the next few decades. Donít think Trumpís going to hand over the money though :/
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 07:38 AM   #4622
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I was in New York this past weekend.

Riding the subway on the weekend had me like

I almost got lost twice heading back to Queens (where I was staying at) because some of the services were rerouted and some were partially shut down (like the 7 in Manhattan).
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 12:44 PM   #4623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
I did read the article, and I doubt that open gangway trains or RFID ticketing would improve reliability in any way, nor would they repair crumbling infrastructure. Breakdowns and delays are a bigger problem imo than grimy stations (which would be a relatively easy thing to fix). Did you read the article?

My point on automation was more that the subway needs to look at how other older subway systems have upgraded (itís silly to compare it to systems that are ~20 miles long and were built this century), including new trains and signalling. If youíre upgrading trains and signalling you should be automating, the unions will grumble but at the end of the day you need to reduce running costs over the next few decades. Donít think Trumpís going to hand over the money though :/
Only a handful of rapid transit lines have gone automatic, let alone retrofitted older lines. No other city has endeavored anything close to what it would take to automate something as big and complex as a New York subway line, so I highly doubt that this is a relevant discussion when the MTA is struggling to run its existing infrastructure. What the subway needs is funding for repairs, staff, rolling stock, and station maintenance. RFID is minor but it would speed up the lines at turnstiles, and open-gangway trains would help spread passengers across trains. As opposed to WiFi, these things are actually useful.

And as for the dirty stations ó New Yorkers just deserve better.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 01:43 PM   #4624
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I believe WiFi was a prerequisite for the subway to install ISIM-B, a system that told central control where all the B Division trains were, allowing control to get a better idea of what was happening across the network (they didn't have that in 2017!!!). The most visible effect of that is the B Division countdown clocks.

Yes, the MTA needs to get its house together, but at the same time it has to show the public that it's doing *something*. Also, crumbling infrastructure means that it's more effective to replace the entire thing altogether, and if replacing things like turnstiles means you get fun things like RFID, and replacing trains means you get things like open gangway trains, I don't see what's so bad about it.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 01:48 PM   #4625
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I'd agree that just getting the network to a state of good repair alone wouldn't be enough for the future. Investing in technology that will reduce operating costs in the long run should also be taken into account.

However, the root cause of course isn't the availability of funds - or lack thereof. The city and state should be able to raise the necessary capital pretty effortlessly. It's just that the political will isn't there. So nothing happens.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 02:29 PM   #4626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiogiorgini View Post
Only a handful of rapid transit lines have gone automatic, let alone retrofitted older lines.
Literally hundreds of rapid transit lines are automatic.

Paris has retrofitted a handful of lines, London has done 4 and is in the middle of another 4, Glasgow was automated in the 70s.. I suspect that BART as a system is not significantly more complex than a NYC line, especially when it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing approach. Paris ran driver and driverless trains on the same line for a while, London Crossrail is to be driverless but only in the central section. No reason why large sections can't be done with gradual improvements.

Quote:
I highly doubt that this is a relevant discussion when the MTA is struggling to run its existing infrastructure. What the subway needs is funding for repairs, staff, rolling stock, and station maintenance.
That is the point though - some of the signalling equipment is 80 years old. What are they going to do when it breaks? Replace it with the same?

NYC needs to seriously look at upgrading the signalling instead of just tinkering. At this point they'd need to look at moving block signalling, and every single system they could look at would be compatible with ATO. Unless you think they should go for a modern signalling system that has no provision for automation? Hint: it doesn't exist.

I note that the L and the 7 are both automated. Seems to be that the unions are not some impossible hurdle to overcome, especially when it would take decades to remove drivers completely.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 03:57 PM   #4627
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How many R211 is there going to be? Wikipedia says 1025, but someone here said over 1600... And also how long are nyc subway trains(how many cars)? Thanks in advance
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 04:23 PM   #4628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kacpi2532 View Post
How many R211 is there going to be? Wikipedia says 1025, but someone here said over 1600... And also how long are nyc subway trains(how many cars)? Thanks in advance
1025 without all options. 1625 (give or take) with all. The final total will depend on funding.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 09:12 AM   #4629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kacpi2532 View Post
How many R211 is there going to be? Wikipedia says 1025, but someone here said over 1600... And also how long are nyc subway trains(how many cars)? Thanks in advance
The Length depends on the train. Most trains use 10 cars, but some of the older lines with slightly shorter platforms can only fit 8 car trains. Then thereís the 7 train which uses 11 cars, and the G train which only has 4 cars.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 12:59 PM   #4630
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It seems to me that the problem is:

- a cutback on maintenance and renewals since the 1990s
- insufficient upgrade works (e.g. signalling systems)
- upgrades that have taken place have often not priortised the right areas
- debt used to finance basic operational costs which has led to crippling repayments

At the heart of the above is the dysfunctional governance structure of MTA. Without fixing that I don't know how you'll ever fully stop future politicians causing the same problems again.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 02:42 PM   #4631
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Some video I took last weekend.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 02:34 PM   #4632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiogiorgini View Post
No other city has endeavored anything close to what it would take to automate something as big and complex as a New York subway line, so I highly doubt that this is a relevant discussion when the MTA is struggling to run its existing infrastructure.

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informatio...on-this-page-1

Realised today that London is doing exactly this - upgrading 4 interlinked underground lines (that predate the NYC subway and rely on equipment just as old) at the same time. It will take over a decade to fully implement but the trains will be automated over individual stretches as they are upgraded.

So nothing about the size, or complexity really holding NYC back, just cost and political will.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 03:05 PM   #4633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
It will take over a decade to fully implement but the trains will be automated over individual stretches as they are upgraded.
Modernisation of those lines has been going on for over a decade already - track relaying meant weekend closures of the outer reaches of the Met line in the early 00s, the restructuring of service*, the new trains (first of which came out 2010). Though sure, one can tighten up the timetable a bit - there's been a lot of delays due to (unwanted by London Underground, but forced on them by Crash Gordon (Brown)) PPP-contracts falling apart, prioritising other lines due to the Olympics and flipping entirely the order which the resignalling will be done from outside-in to centre-out.

The actual re-signalling is just beginning though and the piecemeal approach means that they can take their time and use a limited budget (and they can drop west of Earls Court, east of Barking and north of Harrow if they run out of cash - focus on the bits that will be 28tph+ and/or have lots of junctions)

*Circle line T-Cupping in 2009, all-day through Chesham trains and loss of off-peak fast Mets in 2011
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Old November 30th, 2017, 06:18 AM   #4634
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I love reviewing this page every once in a while and seeing valiant defenses of the indefensible. Keep it up everyone! Very entertaining.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 10:34 PM   #4635
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R211 Open House:


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


R211 Open House by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


NYCT_1196 by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


NYCT_1199 by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


NYCT_1207 by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


NYCT_1222 by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr


NYCT_1372 by Metropolitan Transportation Authority of the State of New York, on Flickr
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Old December 1st, 2017, 01:05 AM   #4636
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Love that design. Really sleek. Finally.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 01:15 AM   #4637
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Is there any reason for any future rolling stock to not have open gangways? Even if it's for lower ridership lines?
Such as maybe a hairpin turn like on the temporary 1 South Ferry station?

Also this is the first design that looks futuristic of any rolling stock. R160/188 looks modern but not futuristic.

Speaking of low ridership, R211s will go on the Staten Island Railway of all places, but maybe they will be the
non-open gangway ones, which really the whole order should be open gangway...
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Old December 1st, 2017, 02:50 AM   #4638
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I believe the first 740 cars won't be open gangway, but depending on the success of the open gangway train, future option orders may be.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 02:57 AM   #4639
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Oh I forgot the huge first order had only the 10 test cars, while the nice large and increasing number of open gangway cars proposed, was for future extensions.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 04:11 AM   #4640
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Still don't like the blue and yellow exterior livery (if the blue front cap, interior floor, and seats were dark gray, it'd be perfect), but this is obviously a step forward.

Does anyone know if this means the end of the FIND displays and if all the screens, including the advertising ones, are fully digital and presumably animated?
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