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Old July 28th, 2008, 07:52 AM   #701
iampuking
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London is neither, unfortunately.

It has endless surburbia (in European terms) yet has a crap road network.
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Old July 28th, 2008, 04:28 PM   #702
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I'm quite sure Hong Kong is profitable as well. But they make money from real estate as well, don't they?

I don't think the problem of mass transit being unprofitable lies with soley with mass transit itself, rather the society it exists in. When you have a dense city, where it's too crowded and expensive to own cars, then transit blossoms. But when you have enormous sprawling suburbs, a car orientated culture that looks down on mass transit as being 'for commoners' and filthy, well, then you'll be hard pressed to make any money.
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Old July 28th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
It temporarily "ventilates" i.e. passes a load of hot air and replaces it with a new load of hot air, but does not air-condition.

Believe me, this kind of "air-conditioning" is absolutely useless. They claim that's what ventilates the London Underground, but really does not cool down anyone whatsoever, and LU has stronger draughts than the NY Subway!
Oh believe me I would know, I take the subway everyday.

Notice how I never said air conditioning or that it was useful. I only said it moves the air around. Please reread what I wrote.

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Originally Posted by anm View Post
Msradell, even if NYC denisty were the highest in the USA (not sure that it is, but it may as well be),
Which it is.


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Originally Posted by anm View Post
it is quite average by world standards for a city of this size.
I am pretty sure it is in the top 10 worldwid in pop density per square mile. And also what do you mean for a city of it's size. NYC is not that big of a city square mile wise.
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Old July 28th, 2008, 08:01 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarbury View Post
Compare the workforce for operating and maintaining mass transit systems with that for maintaining highways.

I read somewhere that NYC's subway has a bigger security team than many city's ENTIRE POLICE FORCE. I totally disagree with your above statement, I think public transport can generate a hell of a lot of jobs. Buses and trains also require maintenance, you need bus and train drivers... the list goes on and on and on and on.
You're correct if it's the only jobs you look at but you're forgetting to include the jobs in the auto industry to manufacture the automobiles and the required parts, also the automobile repair industry employs multitudes of people. You're also forgetting the entire oil industry (even though it is a ripoff) that employees 100's of thousands of people from exploration to production to distribution to sales.

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Anybody who thinks we're going to be using cars twenty-five years from now the way we've been accustomed to using them in the recent past ought to have his head examined.
I personally think we WILL be using then in much the same way. The vehicles will be very different and not fueled by the same fuels they are today but we still will be driving automobiles to and from work and for recreational purposes.
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Last edited by Msradell; July 28th, 2008 at 08:13 PM. Reason: Added second quote
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Old July 29th, 2008, 12:37 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by ramvid01 View Post
Oh believe me I would know, I take the subway everyday.

Notice how I never said air conditioning or that it was useful. I only said it moves the air around. Please reread what I wrote.
My post wasn't exactly directed at you, more at moronic transit officials.

And I assumed you had not travelled on the NYC Subway since you did not remark on how ineffectual the "ventilation" of the stations is.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 02:47 AM   #706
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I personally think we WILL be using then in much the same way. The vehicles will be very different and not fueled by the same fuels they are today but we still will be driving automobiles to and from work and for recreational purposes.
Any ideas as to WHEN this pipe dream of yours will happen? Mass transit can reduce car usage, air pollution, and sprawl NOW. I prefer not to rely on corporate CEOs to be the salvation of America's transportation woes.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 02:49 AM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
You're correct if it's the only jobs you look at but you're forgetting to include the jobs in the auto industry to manufacture the automobiles and the required parts, also the automobile repair industry employs multitudes of people. You're also forgetting the entire oil industry (even though it is a ripoff) that employees 100's of thousands of people from exploration to production to distribution to sales.
So keep an environmentally and socially destructive industry just because it creates jobs? Wind, solar and geothermal production could employ just as many people providing a sustainable energy source.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 03:03 AM   #708
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If you air-condition the stations you have to air-condition the tunnels as well. One thing can't go without the other. Otherwise the difference in temperature between the stations (cool) & the tunnels (hot) make the electrical systems go haywire. And air-conditioning both tunnels & stations is awfully expensive.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:18 AM   #709
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Heat in the NY subways can be partially attributed to the fact that the weather in that part of the U.S. gets very hot and humid in the summer. Since many stations are right under street level, the ventilation grates come through to the sidewalk. It's very hot under there, and yes, all the current fleet is air-conditioned.
Money for the new NY subway projects, especially the SAS, has be re-directed to other projects that couldn't get the funding they need. So, the city just moved it from account to an other. Thus, subway works get put off, shruken down or eliminated all together. Plus, it also was dependant on who was in the mayor's office. If they weren't pro-mass-transit, the money would go elsewhere.
The fact that the east side of the city has been under served by the subway system since 1940, proves that thye have never gotten it right. The project is being worked on now, but will it retain it's schedule for completion and will the funds be there to do so?
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:24 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by ramvid01 View Post
Which it is.
which it is not according to this:
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...nsity-125.html

where LA is #90
San Fran/ Oakland is #104
NYC is #114

Quote:
I am pretty sure it is in the top 10 worldwid in pop density per square mile. And also what do you mean for a city of it's size. NYC is not that big of a city square mile wise.
See the above. The table is flawed because some data is not exactly up to date, but mostly for the reason it freely mixes metroplitan area data for some cities with city limits data for others... but it can give you an idea, particularly if you know which one is which.

Even if one uses 8.3 mln within 1.200 sq km area (NYC city limits) - it is only 6900 people per sq. km - quite average by world standards and not within top ten in the world, unless you mean something like "in the free world" or " in the first world" or some other qualifier. But certainly not in THIS world.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:28 AM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
Any ideas as to WHEN this pipe dream of yours will happen? Mass transit can reduce car usage, air pollution, and sprawl NOW. I prefer not to rely on corporate CEOs to be the salvation of America's transportation woes.
Changes to automobile energy sources will happen faster than new mass transit systems since the auto industry is run by industry and mass transit systems are built by government. When's the last time you saw politicians agree on anything?

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Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
So keep an environmentally and socially destructive industry just because it creates jobs? Wind, solar and geothermal production could employ just as many people providing a sustainable energy source.
What we need additional industry not trading one industry for another. Besides how are we going to use all that energy? The auto industry is one of the industry's that made America great we don't need to lose it like we did the steel industry. We need to reestablish our manufacturing base and reduce our dependence on service industries. If we don't we'll continue to see exports decrease and imports increase.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:43 AM   #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anm View Post
which it is not according to this:
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...nsity-125.htmlEven if one uses 8.3 mln within 1.200 sq km area (NYC city limits) - it is only 6900 people per sq. km - quite average by world standards and not within top ten in the world, unless you mean something like "in the free world" or " in the first world" or some other qualifier. But certainly not in THIS world.
I found information elsewhere that says the area of the five boroughs is 789.43 sq km in the population is 8,200,000. This would make the density 10,387 which would put New York at number 19 on the list so it seems like the mayor's statistics are greatly skewed.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:46 AM   #713
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If all the hidden costs of using the highways were to be charged to the driver, betcha there would be a lot of sticker shock.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:50 AM   #714
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If all the hidden costs of using the highways were to be charged to the driver, betcha there would be a lot of sticker shock.
If all the subsidies for mass transit were discontinued nobody could afford to use mass transit!
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:51 AM   #715
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Changes to automobile energy sources will happen faster than new mass transit systems since the auto industry is run by industry and mass transit systems are built by government. When's the last time you saw politicians agree on anything?
Nature won't wait for us to develop new fuels. It won't.

Get it?

Detroit didn't look at long term planning. Now they're selling their assets to survive.

Quote:
What we need additional industry not trading one industry for another.
If your current job has no future, you may need to consider getting another one. Same thing for an industry.

Quote:
Besides how are we going to use all that energy? The auto industry is one of the industry's that made America great we don't need to lose it like we did the steel industry.
If big SUVs have no future, then they have to go. My econ professor said that there's no point supporting a typewriter factory in order to keep the factory workers employed.

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We need to reestablish our manufacturing base and reduce our dependence on service industries.
You'll need to turn back the technology clock to do that.

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If we don't we'll continue to see exports decrease and imports increase.
Easy: export more.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:53 AM   #716
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Well they would because the highway's hidden costs would still make that more expensive than mass transit. When one rail line can carry as much people as about 6 lanes of freeway, it's a no brainer regarding which is more efficient.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 04:57 AM   #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
I found information elsewhere that says the area of the five boroughs is 789.43 sq km in the population is 8,200,000. This would make the density 10,387 which would put New York at number 19 on the list so it seems like the mayor's statistics are greatly skewed.
You used land area rather than total area. This makes some sense, since people do not live over water. However, many other cities have their own geological/geographical/etc. constraints on where residential areas cannot exist - mountains, water bodies, huge parks, industrial areas, airports, etc. In the end, each city has its own unique set of circumstances which need to be appreciated beyond raw numbers... but I think it does not change the conclusion that NYC density is kind of average, not extereme, by the world standards for a city of its size.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 06:24 AM   #718
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You'll need to turn back the technology clock to do that.
Why? What's being manufactured has changed but material goods still need to be manufactured. In the past you made a typewriter, tomorrow you make a handheld computer. In the past you made an SUV, tomorrow you make a hydrogen fuel sedan. You still make something.

Quote:
Easy: export more.
You can't import an intangible, you need to export an item. Exactly why we need a resurgence of manufacturing. Today, agricultural products are becoming one of the few commodities the United States has that other countries want.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 07:09 AM   #719
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If fuel prices continue to rise, then the shipping part a good's value will increase a lot. This may once again make it cheaper to manufacture something locally, than to import it from China. Rising fuel prices are your friend if you're after a revival of local manufacturing: things are still made somewhere, just these days it's in China & India rather than in the USA and Europe. This is not only because labour is way cheaper in these places, but also because transportation costs are (comparatively) so low.

Anyway, we're rather off topic here. How's construction on the 2nd Avenue Subway line going?
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Old July 29th, 2008, 08:00 AM   #720
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anyone else notice msradell lives in kentucky?

i think that would explain a lot about his urge for more freeways, traffic, and wasting resources!
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