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Old January 24th, 2009, 12:01 PM   #841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoking66 View Post
On average I think only 40% of New Yorkers have cars (blame Staten Island for the high number). In Manhattan it's at 95% WITHOUT cars.
I think Manhattan is the business, commercial and cultural center, the majority of New York's residential areas are outside Manhattan
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Old January 25th, 2009, 05:36 AM   #842
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I think Manhattan is the business, commercial and cultural center, the majority of New York's residential areas are outside Manhattan
About 20% of NYC's residents live in Manhattan.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 12:22 PM   #843
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It's because different companies used to run separate metro systems in NY in the past.
Different companies used to run separate systems in London in the past too, but there's now one integrated system.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 04:35 PM   #844
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Using a color coded, ABC system would make NY's system even more confusing. Sure, it's confusing now to an outsider, but it's more important that NYers understand the system than tourists.

See, the "green" line is really 3 different subway lines. It splits into 6 different directions. You'd have, in Brooklyn alone, Three different A trains, three different B trains, and three different C trains, if not MORE. They ALL go into completely different directions. That's incredibly confusing. Why not have a 4, 5, and 6, which converge in Manhattan into the same line? Or a 2 and 3 that converge? It's more logical.

NY has an express system which London doesn't have. You can't just name something "blue line", "purple line" or even "Lexington Avenue" line or something like that, because those lines eventually split into 2 or 3 parts.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 05:30 PM   #845
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Quote:
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Different companies used to run separate systems in London in the past too, but there's now one integrated system.
Unfortunately they haven't numberd lines in London but this 5-km-long-names and hundred of branches, so it's even worse than NYC, coz u never know where to go, u have to keep the metro map all the time in ur hands:///

Back to the topic: NYC could think of a better naming-system so that ppl always know where the trains are going
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Old January 26th, 2009, 02:06 AM   #846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty View Post
NY has an express system which London doesn't have. You can't just name something "blue line", "purple line" or even "Lexington Avenue" line or something like that, because those lines eventually split into 2 or 3 parts.
In London there are expresses (on the Metropolitan line, plus Metropolitan/Jubilee and Piccadilly/District). About half of the lines split into several branches.
The Waterloo & City, Hammersmith & City, Victoria, Circle, Jubilee and Bakerloo don't split.
The Piccadilly has 3 western branches and 1 eastern
The Metropolitan has 4 western branches and 1 eastern
The Central line has 3 eastern (2 forming a loop) and 2 western branches
The Northern line has 3 northern branches, then 2 routes through central London merging into one southern route
The District line has 3 western branches, a eastern branch, a northern branch (which uses different trains) and a 3 station shuttle, using the normal trains, one station on the northern branch, the only station that all the other branches go through and another, unique station - it's rather messy.
The DLR has 3 eastern/southern branches, 2 western ones and a northern one that goes to the southern one only.

The District and Metropolitan were once a lot more complex, the Northern line was planned to be even more complex and the DLR will be more complex. Ignoring the DLR there's about 24 NY style lines, condensed into 11 lines.
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Different companies used to run separate systems in London in the past too, but there's now one integrated system.
So is the New York Subway...

The network divide is a good one to do. There's more lines than letters (or nearly), so having numbers as well works.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 02:33 AM   #847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Unfortunately they haven't numberd lines in London but this 5-km-long-names and hundred of branches, so it's even worse than NYC, coz u never know where to go, u have to keep the metro map all the time in ur hands:///

Back to the topic: NYC could think of a better naming-system so that ppl always know where the trains are going
The alphanumeric system of assigning routes is no less problematic than other systems such as using colours or strictly letters or numbers. Using names would be problematic as multiple lines serve the same terminus.

At the stations themselves, the trains are labelled Uptown/Borough-bound and Downtown-bound based on their direction. When multiple lines serve a station each line is clearly identified with their destination. Express and local routes are indicated by the shape around the number. Local trains in circles appear as (6) while express trains in diamonds appear as <7> at the front of the train and of course the full route name and destination appears at the side of the train next to all of the doors.

This is a lot simpler than say Paris' system where the line direction is identified by the terminus. The first-time user would need to refer to a map to know which direction they need to travel in.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:50 AM   #848
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NYC's system was confusing to me until I realized it was exactly like road numbering in the US: while they all end up in different places, they can multiplex on top of each other, so the same track carries different routes.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 11:11 AM   #849
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Personally I find very useful the combination of colours for the main lines and letters/numbers for the routes + the Uptown/Downtown labelling. Probably the best system around for a subway such as NYC's, and it would apply very well to our RER network too.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 11:16 AM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil

[...]

This is a lot simpler than say Paris' system where the line direction is identified by the terminus. The first-time user would need to refer to a map to know which direction they need to travel in.
No it's not, when you are not used to it New York's system is very disturbing. But that's true for every system that is different from the one you are use to. You need time to adapt.

Paris's one (that is also the system used by lot of metro/tram/bus system) is quite simple. You just need to remember the number of the line and the name of the terminus, of the direction you are going.

The real problem when you get some place else is that you are not used to the name used and they are then more complicated to remember. It's even truer when the names are not part of your cultural/language background.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #851
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I find it difficult on the official NY Subway map to work out which services are express and which aren't. Thankfully there are other maps that make it easier.

The single character system does work, though the colour grouping is annoying as it has local and express with the same colour on the same line in Manhatten, whereas two lines and different, but similar colours would help discern easier which line goes express and which doesn't.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 07:11 AM   #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I find it difficult on the official NY Subway map to work out which services are express and which aren't. Thankfully there are other maps that make it easier.
The single character system does work, though the colour grouping is annoying as it has local and express with the same colour on the same line in Manhatten, whereas two lines and different, but similar colours would help discern easier which line goes express and which doesn't.
That's true: I often have to look at the lines under the station names for unfamiliar stations to determine if a train stops there. The problem is, it's even harder for tourists to figure out what "Full-time" and "Part-time" means for trains, coupled with stations having white and black-filled dots.

In Manhattan, especially on the BDFV lines in midtown, they should separate the BD from the FV for the local stations...
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Old February 9th, 2009, 10:19 AM   #853
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NJ officials suspend program to build artificial reefs using old NYC subway cars
7 February 2009

ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (AP) - The state has suspended a program to create an artificial fishing reef off Atlantic City by sinking old New York City subway cars underwater.

State officials say an initial batch of about 100 cars that have been sunk so far are showing "unusual damage."

The 35,000-pound cars were supposed to maintain 90 percent of their structural integrity after 30 years.

State Department of Environmental Protection spokeswoman Darlene Yuhas tells the Press of Atlantic City that the cars are deteriorating at a faster rate than anticipated. State officials want to find out why before sinking any more cars.

The agency oversees the 15 artificial reefs from Cape May to Sandy Hook.

The controversial program has been opposed by some environmental groups.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 10:37 AM   #854
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This is a year late this reply, but I'm new to the board.

I've lived here my whole life and really I could really give a crap what the place looks like, I just like reliable service that's 24 hours. It could be cleaner, yes, but I'd rather have train come in a dingy, out of date, with tiles missing station at 4am than no train in a beautiful station.

I can't get that in London or Montreal. While those cities spend millions on making it pretty, NYC spends it on actual 24 train service.

As far as the elevated trains go, They are an eyesore to look at sure, but the view from the 7 train in LIC is amazing, and I would never trade that for a dark tunnel to ride to work everyday.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I find it difficult on the official NY Subway map to work out which services are express and which aren't. Thankfully there are other maps that make it easier.

The single character system does work, though the colour grouping is annoying as it has local and express with the same colour on the same line in Manhatten, whereas two lines and different, but similar colours would help discern easier which line goes express and which doesn't.
I think they should have the diamond to signify express and circle to signify local like they still have on the 7 train. I can understand it being confusing, but it gets easier. Though, when they had the roll key sometimes they didn't have the diamonds up even if it was express, so it was anyone's guess what 7 was express, but they digitalized the diamonds and circles now.

Color grouping has do do with route, ie. 4 5 6 trains (green) are the Lexington Ave. lines. 1 2 3 trains (red) are the 7th ave lines.

Hey, it used to be worse. For example the 10 and 12 train was the express 5 and 6, respectively. Very confusing! Much easier to have 4 5 express / 6 local.

The best way to learn is to pop your head in the train door when it opens and ask "is this express?"
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Old February 14th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #856
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Apart from the 2nd Ave subway and the Line 7 extension, what expansion of the NY system has been proposed or is considered a pretty good idea?
Well, I found an ancient proposal from 1938 that would be great! It has the 2nd Ave train proposal (yup, it's been "promised" for about 80 years now), but it also had proposals for extensions of the 7 (and it seemed possibly other lines) further into Queens, with College Point, Whitestone, Bayside and Floral Park lines. I like that, because I hate taking buses when I need to be somewhere (though, if I have leisure time, I love taking buses), and a subway extension into my 'hood would be ideal.

and I just saw one for an interborough line, which would go through Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn without having to go through manhattan first, which seems brilliant to me!
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Old February 14th, 2009, 11:36 AM   #857
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Doesn't the G train provide decent links between Queens and Brooklyn? Maybe it just needs to be extended to the Bronx somehow?
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Old February 14th, 2009, 06:19 PM   #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by django89 View Post
This is a year late this reply, but I'm new to the board.

I've lived here my whole life and really I could really give a crap what the place looks like, I just like reliable service that's 24 hours. It could be cleaner, yes, but I'd rather have train come in a dingy, out of date, with tiles missing station at 4am than no train in a beautiful station.

I can't get that in London or Montreal. While those cities spend millions on making it pretty, NYC spends it on actual 24 train service.

As far as the elevated trains go, They are an eyesore to look at sure, but the view from the 7 train in LIC is amazing, and I would never trade that for a dark tunnel to ride to work everyday.
The only reason the NYC Subway has express tracks is because of history. So why are you implying that it is because the authorities invest in a 4 track system? If history were to give NYC a 2 track system then I doubt they'd maintain it any better, and it wouldn't be "pretty".
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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:16 PM   #859
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Considering the confusion that even New Yorkers experience when it comes to local/express and crossover stations (turning back when going the wrong way), the MTA would be wise to adopt the amazing "Kick Map" shown on the right from the official site's comparison page.





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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:54 PM   #860
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That kick map is such an improvement... Not only does it add more information, but it is way more aesthetically pleasing.
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