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Old June 23rd, 2011, 04:33 AM   #1201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
They have not , they've only considered them Extensions. They have been upgrading a decent amount of stations over the past few months , i think they would have installed them by now.
They should install platform doors whereever they can, especially busy stations.

Here is a station from the Paris, France subway, Gare de Lyon.

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If each subway station had doors like these, that would help ease congestion on some of the busiest lines and allow the trains to run more efficiently.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 05:03 AM   #1202
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The current project for the 2nd Avenue Subway is NYC's last chance. The project was first proposed in the 1920s and has been delayed several times since. The varying construction methods are as follows:
* Tunnel Boring Machine (8 sections)
* Cut and Cover (6 sections)
* Mined with Cut and Cover (4 sections)
* plus 3 already-existing sections of the line
(I already know what Cut and Cover is, but not "Mined with Cut and Cover". Is it the same thing or is it different?)

And about the proposed 7 Subway Extension, with any potential extension to New Jersey, can the New York city subway system be taken out of the NYC city limits?
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 05:58 AM   #1203
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@Nexis: the MTA does want it systemwide and is looking into it - http://secondavenuesagas.com/2011/02...latform-edges/ The extensions are very likely to get them, but so will the rest of the system; the time frame for the two is what's very different.
@Jim856796: "mined with cut and cover" is how the stations will get built: the TBM will go through an area and then they will do cut and cover work, hence "mined with..."
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 07:02 AM   #1204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim856796 View Post
The current project for the 2nd Avenue Subway is NYC's last chance. The project was first proposed in the 1920s and has been delayed several times since. The varying construction methods are as follows:
* Tunnel Boring Machine (8 sections)
* Cut and Cover (6 sections)
* Mined with Cut and Cover (4 sections)
* plus 3 already-existing sections of the line
(I already know what Cut and Cover is, but not "Mined with Cut and Cover". Is it the same thing or is it different?)

And about the proposed 7 Subway Extension, with any potential extension to New Jersey, can the New York city subway system be taken out of the NYC city limits?
The 7 line to NJ is dead , The Subway can't leave NYC. + Amtrak and the MTA have plans to push the 7 into Penn station as part of the Penn station Expansion project.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 02:42 PM   #1205
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I was about to say......cause wouldn't the 7 require the tunnel connection that the NJ Gov killed?
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 03:33 PM   #1206
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I was about to say......cause wouldn't the 7 require the tunnel connection that the NJ Gov killed?
No it would be a New Tunnel , but the Politics , different Hudson River Agencies and cost , along with rules preventing the Subway from leaving the City would ensure it never leaves the City. The Amtrak plan calls for it to be pulled down into the New Penn station for a cheaper cost and the New Gateway Tunnels will relieve Regional Rail pressure.... Thus killing any extension to Jersey.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 06:42 PM   #1207
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I've never seen the centre track of any three-tracked NYC line being used. Briefly, how/when is the centre track in service?
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 06:57 PM   #1208
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I've never seen the centre track of any three-tracked NYC line being used. Briefly, how/when is the centre track in service?
Inbound or Outbound Express Rush hour trains use them. Inbound during the morning rush and outbound during the evening rush , there also used to relive stress during gaming events and other special things. There are also underground Double Decker subways , Express's run below , while locals run on the second underground level , we have 4 track underground lines aswell.
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 07:24 PM   #1209
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21 St.-Queensbridge to 47-50 St.-Rockefeller Ctr
Do you know whether the service speed along the first 5½-minute-3-station stretch has always been that slow, or has the video playback speed itself indeed been slowed? (Plus, how come youtube's labelled the start as being 21 Street when this month's edition of the map shows no such place as being called at there [Manhattan?]?)
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 10:06 PM   #1210
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Do you know whether the service speed along the first 5½-minute-3-station stretch has always been that slow, or has the video playback speed itself indeed been slowed? (Plus, how come youtube's labelled the start as being 21 Street when this month's edition of the map shows no such place as being called at there [Manhattan?]?)
I would not think it is the video. But then again, this isn't my video lol (You will find the name of the creator at the very top of my post).

As to your second point, I have no clue.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 08:16 AM   #1211
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(Plus, how come youtube's labelled the start as being 21 Street when this month's edition of the map shows no such place as being called at there [Manhattan?]?)
21st Street-Queensbridge is in Queens; the video is showing the F crossing the East River into Manhattan; the train will eventually head downtown in Manhattan and across the East River again into Brooklyn.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 11:26 AM   #1212
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IRT R62A 7 Express From 42 St. Times Square To Main St. Flushing

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Old June 24th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #1213
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It was mentioned on the previous page that the 7 train extension would have a single station. Well, some good news! Although there won't be a station at 10 Ave when the extension itself opens, there was space set aside underground for its future construction... when the half-billion dollar price tag can be met
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Old June 24th, 2011, 10:41 PM   #1214
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Looking at videos and such of the NYC Subway, the stations on the elevated portions are so close to each other. Could someone explain to me why that is?

I'd imagine riding on the local trains, these would not be much faster than riding a city bus. Heck, here in LA the Limited Stop Bus Service like the Metro, Culver City, or Santa Monica Big Blue Bus Rapid have stops further apart than that....
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Old June 25th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #1215
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^It's not just the elevated sections; the older lines, elevated or underground, have relatively short spacing, something on the order of .25 miles between stops. More modern lines, like the 8 Ave Line (1932), have more contemporary spacing – ~ .5 miles. Part of the reason there was short spacing for the older segments of the subway is that the private companies that built the infrastructure in the late 19th / early 20th century wanted to maximize the amount of ridership by putting as many stops as possible for a given distance. In fact, several stations were as close as a tenth of a mile and considering the decrease in speed and additional maintenance costs, the city saw it fit to close several stations after the subway was unified after 1940 (18 St on the Lexington Ave Line, for example). Also, this isn't wholly unique to New York: the Paris Metro has short spacing.
In terms of distance, buses may travel faster than parts of the subway in a given time. However, the roads that run above or below the subway are usually the more prone to congestion and considering the generally short bus spacing, the subway makes for faster travel along any given route.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 03:53 AM   #1216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarneGator View Post
^It's not just the elevated sections; the older lines, elevated or underground, have relatively short spacing, something on the order of .25 miles between stops. More modern lines, like the 8 Ave Line (1932), have more contemporary spacing – ~ .5 miles. Part of the reason there was short spacing for the older segments of the subway is that the private companies that built the infrastructure in the late 19th / early 20th century wanted to maximize the amount of ridership by putting as many stops as possible for a given distance. In fact, several stations were as close as a tenth of a mile and considering the decrease in speed and additional maintenance costs, the city saw it fit to close several stations after the subway was unified after 1940 (18 St on the Lexington Ave Line, for example). Also, this isn't wholly unique to New York: the Paris Metro has short spacing.
In terms of distance, buses may travel faster than parts of the subway in a given time. However, the roads that run above or below the subway are usually the more prone to congestion and considering the generally short bus spacing, the subway makes for faster travel along any given route.
Thanks for the info...didn't know the subways were built by private companies.

The congestion is mostly because of size of New York city streets, that van literally has to back up for the bus:


So when you do the math(Streets too small for the bus itself + the traffic = too slow for it's own good) then it's no wonder why the subway can get away such close spacing. In contrast to the LA Metro Rapid 740 and 710 and their NABI 60-BRTs easily fly down Crenshaw Bl with no issues.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 05:19 AM   #1217
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No, offense, and I welcome all the new interest and posters, but many of the recent questions can easily be resolved by searching the internet for history about the NYC Subway (and by looking at the subway map carefully).

Try:
http://nycsubway.org/ - great collection of info and pictures of system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway - Wikipedia, of course
http://secondavenuesagas.com/ - Subscribe to this blog to stay up-to-date on NYC transit related stuff

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I've never seen the centre track of any three-tracked NYC line being used. Briefly, how/when is the centre track in service?
Try taking the 7 train during rush hours. Express service to Manhattan during the morning, and towards Queens in the afternoon/evening. The track merges between 33-Rawson Sts and Queensboro Plaza.

The JZ line also uses the middle track rush hours as well, I believe.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 07:11 AM   #1218
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@State of the Union
I just looked through the MTA's listed schedules and the local trains tend to be quite a lot faster than the buses, despite the generally short subway station spacing. In Manhattan, going from 125 Street to Houston and Lexington, takes 25 minutes on the 6 train (Lexington Ave Local), 75 minutes on the M15 bus (2 Ave), about 59 minutes on the M101 Limited bus (Lexington Ave), and about 54 minutes on the M15 SBS (2 Ave). (2 Ave parallels and is within a stone's throw of Lexington Ave) Taking the example of the 7 train in Queens, the 7 (local) takes 12 minutes to go from 74 St to Queensboro Plaza while the Q32 bus (runs below the 7 train viaduct) takes about 30 minutes for roughly the same distance. Of course traffic conditions and boardings may speed or slow things down further for the buses, but you can see they come up well short of the subway along similar routes.
On that note, average station spacing for the proposed full-length 2 Ave Line is more in line with contemporary transit standards, about .6 miles, which means about 30% fewer stops between 125 St and Chatham Square for the proposed T train versus the existing 6 train (14 vs 20 stops, respectively). The 6 train makes that run in 30 minutes. Considering a train loses about a minute between the time it starts decelerating and then leaving a station, the T should be expected to make the run in 24 minutes, five minutes short of the express train; take another two-and-a-bit minutes off for the straighter alignment and overall better average speed and the T should be within a minute or so of the Lexington Ave express trains for equivalent distances.
Buses shouldn't be competing with the subway, of course, but they should be as good as possible to complement the system, connect the urban area as best as possible. With that said, buses aren't hampered so much by narrow streets – most of the streets the buses run on are over two lanes wide and you can always make bus-only lanes – but rather by slow boardings, very frequent stations stops, and yes, the traffic. Likewise, traffic isn't aggravated by those narrows streets. Instead, it's the density of car traffic: well over 500,000 cars enter the lower 2/3 of Manhattan; there's only so much asphalt available for all types of automotive traffic. Considering buses operate in that environment, it can only move as fast as traffic, not to mention competing for entrance after making a stop. Eliminate the low 1/8 mile distance between bus stops and the average speed would pick up dramatically, simply by virtue of flowing with traffic rather than fighting it at every block. Couple that with faster boardings like the MTA finally does with the M15 and Bx12 buses and the buses wouldn't be two to three times as slow as existing local trains.
I've never really looked at LA's bus performance nor do I have any first-hand observations, but I'm willing to bet that your impression of LA's better bus performance is attributable to the operational elements I just mentioned rather than the prevalence of wide streets.
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Last edited by MarneGator; June 25th, 2011 at 07:18 AM. Reason: slight rewording
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Old June 25th, 2011, 07:39 AM   #1219
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In Manhattan, going from 125 Street to Houston and Lexington, takes 25 minutes on the 6 train (Lexington Ave Local), 75 minutes on the M15 bus (2 Ave), about 59 minutes on the M101 Limited bus (Lexington Ave), and about 54 minutes on the M15 SBS (2 Ave). (2 Ave parallels and is within a stone's throw of Lexington Ave) Taking the example of the 7 train in Queens, the 7 (local) takes 12 minutes to go from 74 St to Queensboro Plaza while the Q32 bus (runs below the 7 train viaduct) takes about 30 minutes for roughly the same distance. Of course traffic conditions and boardings may speed or slow things down further for the buses, but you can see they come up well short of the subway along similar routes.
I don't want to be picky, but there's no stop on the Lex at Houston and below Grand Central the line runs under Park Avenue South, Lafayette Street, and Broadway.

I don't know why anyone would be surprised that the subway runs faster; after all, it has its own right of way, signalling et al. Remember that dwell times are pretty short (about 20-30sec) per station, so for much of the time the train is moving. And express trains can easily hit and maintain 45 or so on a nice stretch, even approaching 55 on long stretches such as the 8th Avenue Line between 59th and 125th.

On a side note, the origin of the numbers/letters designation comes from the fact that the IRT began to name its routes numerically in the 1910s upon the completion of the "H" system and severance of the East and West Side Lines. In the 1930s, upon the opening of the IND, single and double letters were used to designate service (A was express, AA was local), with the lettering system eventually being placed onto BMT lines after the subways were integrated. The MTA eliminated double letters in the 1980s for simplicity's sake.
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Old June 25th, 2011, 09:30 AM   #1220
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@State of the Union
I just looked through the MTA's listed schedules and the local trains tend to be quite a lot faster than the buses, despite the generally short subway station spacing. In Manhattan, going from 125 Street to Houston and Lexington, takes 25 minutes on the 6 train (Lexington Ave Local), 75 minutes on the M15 bus (2 Ave), about 59 minutes on the M101 Limited bus (Lexington Ave), and about 54 minutes on the M15 SBS (2 Ave). (2 Ave parallels and is within a stone's throw of Lexington Ave) Taking the example of the 7 train in Queens, the 7 (local) takes 12 minutes to go from 74 St to Queensboro Plaza while the Q32 bus (runs below the 7 train viaduct) takes about 30 minutes for roughly the same distance. Of course traffic conditions and boardings may speed or slow things down further for the buses, but you can see they come up well short of the subway along similar routes.
On that note, average station spacing for the proposed full-length 2 Ave Line is more in line with contemporary transit standards, about .6 miles, which means about 30% fewer stops between 125 St and Chatham Square for the proposed T train versus the existing 6 train (14 vs 20 stops, respectively). The 6 train makes that run in 30 minutes. Considering a train loses about a minute between the time it starts decelerating and then leaving a station, the T should be expected to make the run in 24 minutes, five minutes short of the express train; take another two-and-a-bit minutes off for the straighter alignment and overall better average speed and the T should be within a minute or so of the Lexington Ave express trains for equivalent distances.
Buses shouldn't be competing with the subway, of course, but they should be as good as possible to complement the system, connect the urban area as best as possible. With that said, buses aren't hampered so much by narrow streets – most of the streets the buses run on are over two lanes wide and you can always make bus-only lanes – but rather by slow boardings, very frequent stations stops, and yes, the traffic. Likewise, traffic isn't aggravated by those narrows streets. Instead, it's the density of car traffic: well over 500,000 cars enter the lower 2/3 of Manhattan; there's only so much asphalt available for all types of automotive traffic. Considering buses operate in that environment, it can only move as fast as traffic, not to mention competing for entrance after making a stop. Eliminate the low 1/8 mile distance between bus stops and the average speed would pick up dramatically, simply by virtue of flowing with traffic rather than fighting it at every block. Couple that with faster boardings like the MTA finally does with the M15 and Bx12 buses and the buses wouldn't be two to three times as slow as existing local trains.
I've never really looked at LA's bus performance nor do I have any first-hand observations, but I'm willing to bet that your impression of LA's better bus performance is attributable to the operational elements I just mentioned rather than the prevalence of wide streets.
Wilshire Blvd is the only street that literally becomes a stand still regardless. The added fact that you 60ft buses on the Rapid 720 with peak headways reaching down to just 2 Minutes(you heard me, 2 f-ing minutes. on wilshire, I guarantee you will never have seen so many 60ft buses in revenue service at once in a single sight) then it becomes a nightmare. Other than that, most routes get by without any issues though we have our fair share of slow boarding since it's not uncommon to see almost 20 people at a rapid stop.

I am well aware the select bus service. I would like to see how it compares to the subway performance. The +SBS+ even has it's own bus lane and pre-payment before boarding so it should rival the subway performance, correct?

And 1/8 mile bus stops? What is it with New York and having close spacing?
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