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Old July 10th, 2011, 06:51 PM   #1261
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Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
The last thing the Greater NYC metro area needs to do is cater to the automobile. Robert Moses almost destroyed NYC with his highway building orgy. Only recently has the city population stabilized and begun to increase again.
By the turn of 20th Century, certain areas of Manhattan were outright unhealthy. Little Ittaly had, in 1910, an average of 8,4mē of residential built space per inhabitant. That was just not healthy. Places like Hell's Kitchen were not far from there.

To become a saner place to live certain areas, particularly in Manhattan, had to depopulate or build far more residential space. If I am not wrong, Manhattan itself is still below its peak population around WW-1, despite having increase its residential built area a lot.

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NYC is a mass transit mecca. It is far too large to rely on the automobile as the primary transportation choice. There would either be 30 lane freeways or constant gridlock.
It has large streets and wide avenues, save for Downtown. It is not that bad to drive in, as I've done already. Most annoying than traffic are parking prices. US$ 25 per 2 hours near Ground Zero (5 blocks from it, indeed) is just insane. And I was driving a medium-sized Sedan, not an SUV.

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Basic rehabilitation of roads is fine, but any transportation expansion must be rail based- it is the only form that can has the capacity to move enough people and not consume vast amounts of precious space (like a freeway would).
It is hard to generalize policies for all NYC. Some areas can do well with new lanes and, especially, tunnels that help clear bottlenecks. For instance, another Hudson Tunnel linked with a trans-Manhattan express tunnel. One of such projects could be a new freeway leaving the vicinity of the Meadowlands complex in NJ, crossing into an alignment taking it through the North Hudson Park + bridge (or tunnel) under the Hudson, plus trans-Manhattan deep-bore tunnel (well below all subway lines), plus a T-shaped southern extension of the Triborough complex, linking the bridges with this new freeway.

On a more realistic instance, they could build a tunnel linking the Long Island expressway to the Lincoln Tunnel and forbid buses there (there are already 2 train connections there).
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Old July 10th, 2011, 10:18 PM   #1262
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By the turn of 20th Century, certain areas of Manhattan were outright unhealthy. Little Ittaly had, in 1910, an average of 8,4mē of residential built space per inhabitant. That was just not healthy. Places like Hell's Kitchen were not far from there.

To become a saner place to live certain areas, particularly in Manhattan, had to depopulate or build far more residential space. If I am not wrong, Manhattan itself is still below its peak population around WW-1, despite having increase its residential built area a lot.



It has large streets and wide avenues, save for Downtown. It is not that bad to drive in, as I've done already. Most annoying than traffic are parking prices. US$ 25 per 2 hours near Ground Zero (5 blocks from it, indeed) is just insane. And I was driving a medium-sized Sedan, not an SUV.



It is hard to generalize policies for all NYC. Some areas can do well with new lanes and, especially, tunnels that help clear bottlenecks. For instance, another Hudson Tunnel linked with a trans-Manhattan express tunnel. One of such projects could be a new freeway leaving the vicinity of the Meadowlands complex in NJ, crossing into an alignment taking it through the North Hudson Park + bridge (or tunnel) under the Hudson, plus trans-Manhattan deep-bore tunnel (well below all subway lines), plus a T-shaped southern extension of the Triborough complex, linking the bridges with this new freeway.

On a more realistic instance, they could build a tunnel linking the Long Island expressway to the Lincoln Tunnel and forbid buses there (there are already 2 train connections there).
You can't build a New Freeway through the Meadowlands its protected Wetlands , NJT built its last Rail link to the Staduim and the DOT is barred from expanding the highways.... We need a Cross-Regional Rail link to take the pressure off Manhattan and connect NJ with LI , we also need Rail links from LI to CT and a Direct Freight link to LI from NJ. There is no room for Freeways in this region and you don't seem to get that....but when do you? A non American telling this region that we need more freeways....we need more Suburban Rail , alot of lines are planned....so of which will take an estimated 400,000 Urban Commuters off the highways. You also don't seem to understand the underground situation...its a maze of water pipelines , Subways and Passages....hench why most subway projects are taking so long...
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Old July 10th, 2011, 11:16 PM   #1263
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You also don't seem to understand the underground situation...its a maze of water pipelines , Subways and Passages....hench why most subway projects are taking so long...
I do understand the underground situation, which is why I told of a deep-bore.

What makes construction like the Second Avenue line expensive is that it needs many stations, which require huge interference with all you mentioned.
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Old July 10th, 2011, 11:34 PM   #1264
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I do understand the underground situation, which is why I told of a deep-bore.

What makes construction like the Second Avenue line expensive is that it needs many stations, which require huge interference with all you mentioned.
No , you can't do a deep bore with a Highway , it wouldn't work....you would need to build deep bore connections and the NIMBYS wouldn't have it. The only thing that will help traffic in this region is a cross Freight Railway tunnel that would take alot of trucks off the highways. And a Through Railway service....connecting NJ with LI , and NJ with CT.
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Old July 11th, 2011, 04:02 PM   #1265
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I do not see why (deep-bore) tunnels for highways/freeways are out of the question. At least not from a technical point of view: in European cities like Madrid and Paris, underground highways are being constructed using TBM's.

Of course, a whole other question would and should be whether highway/freeway construction in NYC proper is the best way to go. I believe there are certain areas, especially in the more suburban parts of Queens or the Bronx, where (re)construction or modernization projects for highways might be a better option over rail construction, as the primary mode of transportation in/between these areas is the automobile. All trips in/to/from Manhattan and the downtown parts of the neighboring boroughs should be catered by heavy rail, as this is the primary mode of transportation in/to/from these areas.

I do not like the idea of 'light rail' (or 'trams' or whatchamacallit) in dense parts of (down)town, as it usually disrupts and poses serious safety issues to other street traffic, and in the end cannot come close to the service speed, capacity and reliability of grade-separated (i.e. underground or on a viaduct) heavy rail.
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Old July 11th, 2011, 10:45 PM   #1266
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I do not see why (deep-bore) tunnels for highways/freeways are out of the question. At least not from a technical point of view: in European cities like Madrid and Paris, underground highways are being constructed using TBM's.

Of course, a whole other question would and should be whether highway/freeway construction in NYC proper is the best way to go. I believe there are certain areas, especially in the more suburban parts of Queens or the Bronx, where (re)construction or modernization projects for highways might be a better option over rail construction, as the primary mode of transportation in/between these areas is the automobile. All trips in/to/from Manhattan and the downtown parts of the neighboring boroughs should be catered by heavy rail, as this is the primary mode of transportation in/to/from these areas.

I do not like the idea of 'light rail' (or 'trams' or whatchamacallit) in dense parts of (down)town, as it usually disrupts and poses serious safety issues to other street traffic, and in the end cannot come close to the service speed, capacity and reliability of grade-separated (i.e. underground or on a viaduct) heavy rail.
It would not be easy in NYC , the underground setup is very complex and would render a highway project useless. There are no suburban areas of Queens or The Bronx , Staten Island does have suburban areas.... Most people in Queens use the bus system as the Subway system only reaches 60% of the borough. The Bronx is nicely blanketed with Subways and the Highways are in good shape. There are very few highways that will be upgraded over the next decade , I-278 is one of them and I-678 will be torn out....so will a few other highways in this region. How would upgrading a highway be better then Heavy Rail extensions? Have you ever visited this region? The Highways are snarled , and upgrading them will do little. The problem is the regional Rail network hasn't been expanding in 10 years to high growth areas , thus those people drive or use the bus thus clogging the highways.... Light Rail can work in the Outer Boroughs and upper Manhattan where the densities are lower....
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Old July 12th, 2011, 12:01 AM   #1267
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How would upgrading a highway be better then Heavy Rail extensions?
Trips in or between less dense areas or suburban areas are usually made by car. It's the same in the States as it is in Europe (or even more so). As trips in or between these areas usually do not go to a single destination point, heavy rail solutions are usually out of the question. The population density around potential stations as well as the density of the built-up area usually is not enough to justify the expenses for constructing, maintaining and running a heavy rail line.
Don't get me wrong: I do advocate heavy rail lines to underserved areas where there is enough demand for them, and that connect these areas to the rest of the existing network. Extending the Nostrand Avenue line in Brooklyn, or the SAS and the #7 line extension currently u/c are good examples, although they can only get built at huge costs. But I fail to see how heavy rail lines could ever be a replacement for automobile traffic in less dense or suburban areas, where trips to the centre of the city are not concerned.

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Have you ever visited this region?
Yes, I have. I really do love the city and plan to visit it again soon. However, I fail to see how that is relevant to this discussion. Could you please elaborate on that?
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Old July 12th, 2011, 03:58 AM   #1268
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Are there any other inner suburbs besides Hudson where an LRT or BRT complementing the subway system could be useful?

Perhaps Downstate NY or Southwestern Connecticut?
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Old July 12th, 2011, 04:54 AM   #1269
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Trips in or between less dense areas or suburban areas are usually made by car. It's the same in the States as it is in Europe (or even more so). As trips in or between these areas usually do not go to a single destination point, heavy rail solutions are usually out of the question. The population density around potential stations as well as the density of the built-up area usually is not enough to justify the expenses for constructing, maintaining and running a heavy rail line.
Don't get me wrong: I do advocate heavy rail lines to underserved areas where there is enough demand for them, and that connect these areas to the rest of the existing network. Extending the Nostrand Avenue line in Brooklyn, or the SAS and the #7 line extension currently u/c are good examples, although they can only get built at huge costs. But I fail to see how heavy rail lines could ever be a replacement for automobile traffic in less dense or suburban areas, where trips to the centre of the city are not concerned.



Yes, I have. I really do love the city and plan to visit it again soon. However, I fail to see how that is relevant to this discussion. Could you please elaborate on that?
Most ppl in NYC use transit and car usage is fairly low or the cars are never used by the people who have them.... Heavy Rail is probably the only thing your going to see. But we do need a line connecting Brooklyn , Queens and the Bronx to each other. we could easily restore stations on the Regional Rail system in lower density areas and that is planned for later this decade. The SAS is at least 2 decades away from being completed along the whole route. The 7 Extension to the West Side and Penn station will be completed long before the SAS is completed. Extending the Nostrand Avenue line is unlikely....and i haven't heard of any plans for that. After the SAS , 7 Extension , and a few other improvements are done. The MTA is likely to turn to the SI LRT projects and linking them with NJ's system.

I think so people on this board assume they know what is best for that area judging by a map and some info and it comes off rude and know it all.... You can't spend a week in any city and then decide what you think is best for it , you need to spend at least a year....but were all guiltily of this on this site.

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Are there any other inner suburbs besides Hudson where an LRT or BRT complementing the subway system could be useful?

Perhaps Downstate NY or Southwestern Connecticut?
Bergen , Passaic , Essex , Union , all plan on building LRT or Heavy Rail lines that would feed into the Regional Rail system that feeds into NYC / Urban Jersey. Westchester , and parts of Urban CT are planning streetcars and BRT for there cities and dense corridors... Most lines will carry between 30-50,000 riders and have at least 15 stations.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #1270
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Most ppl in NYC use transit and car usage is fairly low or the cars are never used by the people who have them.... Heavy Rail is probably the only thing your going to see. But we do need a line connecting Brooklyn , Queens and the Bronx to each other. we could easily restore stations on the Regional Rail system in lower density areas and that is planned for later this decade. The SAS is at least 2 decades away from being completed along the whole route. The 7 Extension to the West Side and Penn station will be completed long before the SAS is completed. Extending the Nostrand Avenue line is unlikely....and i haven't heard of any plans for that. After the SAS , 7 Extension , and a few other improvements are done. The MTA is likely to turn to the SI LRT projects and linking them with NJ's system.
I've heard of plans in the past for the Triboro RX. That might prove a good addition to the network in the future, as this line would go through areas that are dense enough to justify a rail line. Plus: most of the infrastructure and ROW needed is already in place. There have been numerous plans for extending the Nostrand Avenue branch in the (distant) past. Just start digging a bit into the history of the NYC subway, like I've done over the past few years.
However, budget constraints, financial crises and the sheer cost of building heavy rail in New York (a $17 bln price tag for a full length SAS should give you an idea) show, that constructing heavy rail in a built-up area in these days comes at very high costs. That's why those lines should only be built where they're absolutely necessary (like the SAS, which is long overdue).

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I think so people on this board assume they know what is best for that area judging by a map and some info and it comes off rude and know it all.... You can't spend a week in any city and then decide what you think is best for it , you need to spend at least a year....but were all guiltily of this on this site.
I usually tend to base myself on statistics and research instead of my own perceptions, especially when it comes to places I don't visit too often. I've had an interest in studying the history of the NYC subway system, and the NYC transportation system in general for the past ten years. That's what I base my opinion on.
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Old July 20th, 2011, 12:05 PM   #1271
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 08:46 PM   #1272
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which is why I told of a deep-bore
Good luck! e.g., even a lingerie department store was compelled to bore down five basement levels, i.e., shopping floors, some decades ago. It stuns me how a fraction of an inch --square or cubic-- ain't wasted around Manhattan (and probably most of the rest of the boroughs too).

I'm not the least bit surprised that forummers who peg themselves to suburban communities are the ones crying for more roadworks in this thread
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 10:45 PM   #1273
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MTA's CEO is reported to have resigned at the end of the 2nd of his 6-year appointment. He's going to take a position on Hong Kong's transportation agency.
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Old August 2nd, 2011, 02:55 AM   #1274
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Old August 2nd, 2011, 03:17 AM   #1275
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a new entrance to Fulton Street station in lower Manhattan opened on August 1st


source: http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...=3604&p=370732


source: http://www.dnainfo.com/20110801/down...ubway-entrance


source: http://www.dnainfo.com/20110801/down...ubway-entrance


source: http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/wnyc-news-...ntrance-opens/


source: http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...=3604&p=370732


source: http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...=3604&p=370732


source: http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...=3604&p=370732
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Old August 4th, 2011, 05:55 AM   #1276
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well done, i love that nyc stations manage to preserve the original architecture of stations and retain their style
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Old August 13th, 2011, 03:37 PM   #1277
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:23 PM   #1278
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Quote:
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By the turn of 20th Century, certain areas of Manhattan were outright unhealthy. Little Ittaly had, in 1910, an average of 8,4mē of residential built space per inhabitant. That was just not healthy. Places like Hell's Kitchen were not far from there.

To become a saner place to live certain areas, particularly in Manhattan, had to depopulate or build far more residential space. If I am not wrong, Manhattan itself is still below its peak population around WW-1, despite having increase its residential built area a lot.
Physical expansion of the city did NOT need to be automobile based. New communities had and could have continued to spring up along new subway lines. But Moses was a racist who wanted to make it easy for rich white people to get out of the city and not have to rub elbows with poorer colored people. Building highways accomplished that and also had the added benefit of destroying minority neighborhoods in the process.

A real "win-win" for conservatives. And idiots like you applaud him for that.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 12:04 AM   #1279
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To be honest, I don't even know why someone with a display name like "suburbanist" is even coming to this thread, a thread not only about public transit, but public transit for the densest and most transit-dependent city in America. No Suburbanist - Not every "residential" space has to look like a suburb with 20 lane freeways criss crossing the landscape. Tell that $hit to the Japanese in Tokyo and they would laugh you all the way back to suburbia.
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Old August 15th, 2011, 12:52 AM   #1280
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Geez, you are cross-threading discussions.

My implication is that lower and midtown Manhattan of the time the subway lines were built was a very unhealthy place. 8,4mē of residential built-up space/resident is less than half of that of an average students living in an university dorm. Anything with less than 15mē/inhabitant is very crowded and anything below 10mē/inhabitant, unsanitary. Today, figures in Manhattan are on the 22mē/inhabitant, crowded, but not outright dangerous in average - e.g. manageable.

These conditions, though, created conditions for profitable (at the time) subway systems, elevated railways etc, which help explain why, even for today standards, the number or tunnels and stations in Manhattan, below 86th street, is so high compared to any other city, with plenty of express tracks, and also why there are so many Hudson crossings. In 1900, you already had 1,9 million people living in cramped around subway lines, so even the modest fares and lackluster safety procedures of the time were not deterrents to the success of the system!

Heavy rail transit systems of early 20th century just didn't pop up in New York and similar cities. They were a by-product of demographic and economic conditions of the time.

As I said, I don't know of other metro area which has a comprehensive express+local subway network like NYC.
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