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Old October 5th, 2011, 09:24 PM   #1401
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Old October 5th, 2011, 10:57 PM   #1402
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For someone who loves the Paris Métro, I think it's pretty hard to criticise the subway for cleanliness. Every time I've used the Métro I can't help but think how dirty it is.
for a country with less money (USA) its better to have a dirty (a little bit) subway but with a lot of passengers who moves people efficent and fast.

we dont need a very clean and modern subway because this neeeds a lot of money but the subway is not much better.

the only thing they should built is the second avenue subway.
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Old October 6th, 2011, 04:12 AM   #1403
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^ Cleaning shouldn't be so expensive that the MTA can't afford to sweep the stations now and again. Personally, outside some stations (like 34 Street for the Broadway and 6 Ave lines), I don't think the subway is particularly filthy; most of the "dirty" looks stem from the water damage and peeling paint. While I would agree that movement is more important than looks, it would be nice to have everything looking fresh. Again, it shouldn't be an enormous expense (although looking at the MTA's payroll numbers, it probably is to an absurd degree).
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Old October 6th, 2011, 10:05 PM   #1404
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for a country with less money (USA) its better to have a dirty (a little bit) subway but with a lot of passengers who moves people efficent and fast.

we dont need a very clean and modern subway because this neeeds a lot of money but the subway is not much better.

the only thing they should built is the second avenue subway.
That was a reply to HARTride, who posts a lot on the Métro forum. I'm just saying that Paris is just as dirty in terms of its rapid transport but rarely is criticised for it, while New York gets a lot of crap and really isn't that bad.
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Old October 6th, 2011, 10:37 PM   #1405
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Overall it is a great system that efficiently moves millions a day, you can't expect a system of this caliber to be a glitzy, clean, polished running machine with the use it gets! I happen to love the grittiness of the subway, it adds to the character and charm of this beautiful yet indispensable icon.
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Old October 7th, 2011, 03:34 AM   #1406
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For someone who loves the Paris Métro, I think it's pretty hard to criticise the subway for cleanliness. Every time I've used the Métro I can't help but think how dirty it is.
Oh I agree. The Paris subway is dirty indeed. But Chambers St in NYC supersedes all of Paris in the level of disgust....in my eyes anyways.
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Old October 7th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #1407
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Oh I agree. The Paris subway is dirty indeed. But Chambers St in NYC supersedes all of Paris in the level of disgust....in my eyes anyways.
In comparison, few people actually use Chambers (although back in the pre-war period it was one of the busiest). Most stations are in far better condition because they need to be, although still dirty relatively.
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Old October 8th, 2011, 05:59 AM   #1408
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Overall it is a great system that efficiently moves millions a day, you can't expect a system of this caliber to be a glitzy, clean, polished running machine with the use it gets! I happen to love the grittiness of the subway, it adds to the character and charm of this beautiful yet indispensable icon.
Well said. I feel the same way about the Berlin subway system. Gritty and rough around the edges is far more interesting than polished and sterile like, say, the "subway" system here in Vancouver. ;-)
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Old October 8th, 2011, 11:11 PM   #1409
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Overall it is a great system that efficiently moves millions a day, you can't expect a system of this caliber to be a glitzy, clean, polished running machine with the use it gets! I happen to love the grittiness of the subway, it adds to the character and charm of this beautiful yet indispensable icon.

and parts of the system is 107 years old.
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Old October 8th, 2011, 11:30 PM   #1410
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Originally Posted by mrmocha413 View Post
Overall it is a great system that efficiently moves millions a day, you can't expect a system of this caliber to be a glitzy, clean, polished running machine with the use it gets! I happen to love the grittiness of the subway, it adds to the character and charm of this beautiful yet indispensable icon.
Then, with all due respect, move to a third world city where dirt, trash, open sewage channels and all the glitter one can have are present.

I can understand that at a given moment there are two napkins and a plastic bag in the platform, or that they don't stop all trains daytime to collect a bunch of papers that felt on tracks near the platforms. However...

I can't understand why can't they install a false-roof, couple centimeters below the actual (structural) roof, to collect water pouring down cracks in stations where this is a problem.

I can't understand why can't they use a water-compressor to remove grease and stains from the tiles (if you want tiles instead of sealed concrete because it looks nicer, at least clean it often!)

I can't understand why can't they repaint columns subject to oxidation more often

I can't understand why can't they frame some easily replaceable mats on elevated station's iron staircases.

I can't understand why can't they take a zero-peeling approach to painting as they have with graffiti.

For me, again with due respect, this "I love dirt" is the same misguided thought that leads some people thinking (in the case of NYC, but apply to other cities in other countries as well) that Times Square was a good place not now, but when hooker on crack, drug dealers, pimps, junkies, muggers and pornographic wholesalers dominated the area because it felt "cool" - ah, how good were when we used to hear shooting every night and there was always a dude laying lifeless on the floor.

A TRANSPORTATION system is not a place for aesthetics as its prime concern, but any infrastructure used for transport can be old, yet sanitized, spotless and clean.
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Old October 9th, 2011, 07:16 PM   #1411
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Then, with all due respect, move to a third world city where dirt, trash, open sewage channels and all the glitter one can have are present.

I can understand that at a given moment there are two napkins and a plastic bag in the platform, or that they don't stop all trains daytime to collect a bunch of papers that felt on tracks near the platforms. However...

I can't understand why can't they install a false-roof, couple centimeters below the actual (structural) roof, to collect water pouring down cracks in stations where this is a problem.

I can't understand why can't they use a water-compressor to remove grease and stains from the tiles (if you want tiles instead of sealed concrete because it looks nicer, at least clean it often!)

I can't understand why can't they repaint columns subject to oxidation more often

I can't understand why can't they frame some easily replaceable mats on elevated station's iron staircases.

I can't understand why can't they take a zero-peeling approach to painting as they have with graffiti.

For me, again with due respect, this "I love dirt" is the same misguided thought that leads some people thinking (in the case of NYC, but apply to other cities in other countries as well) that Times Square was a good place not now, but when hooker on crack, drug dealers, pimps, junkies, muggers and pornographic wholesalers dominated the area because it felt "cool" - ah, how good were when we used to hear shooting every night and there was always a dude laying lifeless on the floor.

A TRANSPORTATION system is not a place for aesthetics as its prime concern, but any infrastructure used for transport can be old, yet sanitized, spotless and clean.
I can't understand why Washington gives essentially zero financial assistance to the MTA.

Metro systems in other major cities, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc, get enormous amounts of funding from their respective governments in comparison to NY, while the MTA gets essentially zero, and there are talks to cut federal aid even more. If those metro systems were as old as NYs, and carried as many people as NYs, and ran 24-7, and had to stand on their own two feet and balance their budgets like the MTA has to I'm sure their systems would start to like pretty beat up as well.

At the end of the day, I would much rather have the system we have now, than a slightly cleaner system that didn't run as frequently, or didn't run round the clock. Again, comparing NYs subway system to systems overseas is apples and oranges. The MTA unfortunately gets no help from the feds, while other systems do.
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Old October 10th, 2011, 03:56 AM   #1412
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^ The Tokyo Metro is profitable. (I'm having trouble finding statements for the other metro, the Toei metro.) I don't know whether the Paris Metro itself is profitable or not, but its parent organization, RATP, is, plus its pretty busy itself: about 85% of the ridership of the Subway (and more if you include the RER). London isn't profitable but it's also older than the Subway while its operating company, TfL, is also better run than the MTA so the amount of government aid received is proportionally less than what the MTA requires.
There's nothing operationally unique about New York that precludes comparisons to other systems. That it has been worse-off than other systems is an indication of poor management, both by the MTA (and its predecessor organization, the MCTA), Albany, and to a lesser extent, the City.
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Old October 10th, 2011, 01:10 PM   #1413
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I can't understand why Washington gives essentially zero financial assistance to the MTA.

Metro systems in other major cities, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc, get enormous amounts of funding from their respective governments in comparison to NY, while the MTA gets essentially zero, and there are talks to cut federal aid even more. If those metro systems were as old as NYs, and carried as many people as NYs, and ran 24-7, and had to stand on their own two feet and balance their budgets like the MTA has to I'm sure their systems would start to like pretty beat up as well.

At the end of the day, I would much rather have the system we have now, than a slightly cleaner system that didn't run as frequently, or didn't run round the clock. Again, comparing NYs subway system to systems overseas is apples and oranges. The MTA unfortunately gets no help from the feds, while other systems do.
That has to do more with the general government organization of United States than anything else. Contrary to many other big countries, US federal government doesn't run universities or high schools, and doesn't have its own hospitals (except VA).
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Old October 10th, 2011, 06:42 PM   #1414
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^ The Tokyo Metro is profitable. (I'm having trouble finding statements for the other metro, the Toei metro.) I don't know whether the Paris Metro itself is profitable or not, but its parent organization, RATP, is, plus its pretty busy itself: about 85% of the ridership of the Subway (and more if you include the RER). London isn't profitable but it's also older than the Subway while its operating company, TfL, is also better run than the MTA so the amount of government aid received is proportionally less than what the MTA requires.
There's nothing operationally unique about New York that precludes comparisons to other systems. That it has been worse-off than other systems is an indication of poor management, both by the MTA (and its predecessor organization, the MCTA), Albany, and to a lesser extent, the City.
No rapid transit system is, in and of itself, profitable. The only one that can run on its own, however, is Hong Kong's MTR, due to aggressive transit-oriented development by the same company that operates the system. Rents and property values, along with fares, create a surplus.
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Old October 12th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #1415
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Rents and property values, along with fares, create a surplus.
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Old October 12th, 2011, 10:31 PM   #1416
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Interesting...


Im an accountant, and I was reading the finances of PATH subway in New York.
(On there website).


Essentially, PATH makes a huge loss.
But they match the expence, with an almost exact income.

The income comes direct from the Tunnels and Bridges they own in the NY area.



Strange....
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Old October 12th, 2011, 10:36 PM   #1417
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Interesting...


Im an accountant, and I was reading the finances of PATH subway in New York.
(On there website).


Essentially, PATH makes a huge loss.
But they match the expence, with an almost exact income.

The income comes direct from the Tunnels and Bridges they own in the NY area.



Strange....
The PATH is not part of the Subway , nor was it ever....nor will it ever be. The PATH is also a tiny system....
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Old October 12th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #1418
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the worst metro seen in this world
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Old October 14th, 2011, 05:36 PM   #1419
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No rapid transit system is, in and of itself, profitable. The only one that can run on its own, however, is Hong Kong's MTR, due to aggressive transit-oriented development by the same company that operates the system. Rents and property values, along with fares, create a surplus.
Sometime over the summer Alon Levy showed that the MTR is profitable in both its operations and its development arms. My guess is that the New York subway makes a loss in part because it underprices the longest trips on its system (i.e. to Jamaica Bay) as well as overall ridership costs. Don't the Paris and London networks have some type of zonal fare in place?
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Interesting...


Im an accountant, and I was reading the finances of PATH subway in New York.
(On there website).


Essentially, PATH makes a huge loss.
But they match the expence, with an almost exact income.

The income comes direct from the Tunnels and Bridges they own in the NY area.



Strange....
PATH is owned by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ). The Port Authority is charged with--among other things--providing trans-Hudson transportation access. This it does via the numerous fixed links south of the Tappan Zee (Goethals Br., Bayonne Br., Holland Tn., Lincoln Tn., and G. Washington Br.) as well as via the PATH metro network. Tolls from the fixed-link crossings thus cross-subsidize the underpriced metro (what are PATH fares now? $2.00? $2.50?), and the surplus is used for the Port Authority's other projects.


EDIT: Lemme see if I can get this writ before I have to leave. I think Bloomberg went about implementing congestion pricing on Manhattan all wrong. Instead of attempting what he did, he should have taken stock of the fact that all of the Hudson and East River crossings onto Manhattan are tolled anyway, which creates a de facto congestion charge, and extended the noose around Harlem River way. This could initially be justified due to maintenance purposes or some such, since those bridges are usually pretty old, and the East and Harlem River tolls unified under a single authority tasked also with subsidizing the New York subway with x percentage of toll revenue. And then Bloomberg would go like, "Oh yeah, I just congestion priced your ass! How do you like them beans?"
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Old October 15th, 2011, 03:44 AM   #1420
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