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Old June 5th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #1801
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question... I know MTA is one of the most bloated, inefficient of all transit agencies in US and filled with union fat cats. Thus, short on money as well (combined with their populist fare policy).

Still, why in hell can't t they give cheap makeover to subways stations. I'm not talking of full refurbishments, but things that are relatively cheap such as:

- better lighting with LED lights + LCD information panels on tracks
- frequent repainting
- removing tiles (which are prone to dust/dirt accumulation in the joints) and putting a small bare concrete cover which is much easier to clean
- false roof to collect all sorts of water infiltration in the stations

================================

A second question: when is MTA expected to have all subway stations fit for disabled access? Of all my criticisms of old subway systems, the fact they can get away with shunning out most disable people is among the most serious.
LCD information panels on tracks? What for?
Frequent repainting is a waste of money.
I agree with the third and fourth points.

But to be honest, in case you haven't noticed, the MTA is already tied up with rehabilitation projects of outdoor stations. They just finished the Brighton line, and are still working on the Culver Viaduct and the Rockaway branch. In addition, they're investing enough capital in the extension projects they are working on. It will be some time before they have enough free resources to improve the worst of the worst underground stations.

After all, if it works (for now) why spend more money to fix it?
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Old June 5th, 2012, 02:49 AM   #1802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have a question... I know MTA is one of the most bloated, inefficient of all transit agencies in US and filled with union fat cats. Thus, short on money as well (combined with their populist fare policy).

Still, why in hell can't t they give cheap makeover to subways stations. I'm not talking of full refurbishments, but things that are relatively cheap such as:

- better lighting with LED lights + LCD information panels on tracks
- frequent repainting
- removing tiles (which are prone to dust/dirt accumulation in the joints) and putting a small bare concrete cover which is much easier to clean
- false roof to collect all sorts of water infiltration in the stations

================================

A second question: when is MTA expected to have all subway stations fit for disabled access? Of all my criticisms of old subway systems, the fact they can get away with shunning out most disable people is among the most serious.
As far "LCD information panels on tracks" I am not sure how that would be useful. The trains move over the tracks, and it makes more sense to put them somewhere on the platform than on the tracks.

As far as disabled access, the buses are completely ADA-accessible. I think ADA requires elevators, although escalators might be able to help out more people (though might be more expensive). The three ways of getting into the subway all have their shortcomings:

1. Stairs - cannot be used by disabled and anyone who has trouble walking stairs (elderly)
2. Escalators - cannot be used by disabled
3. Elevators - cannot be used by people with sensitive olefactory nerves (due to smell of urine)

Obviously we need all 3 in each station, but this doesn't come cheap.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 07:21 PM   #1803
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New York subway system obviously works, but as far as esthetics and cleanliness goes virtually every other subway I have used (only in Europe and DC so far) is superior...
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Old June 5th, 2012, 07:48 PM   #1804
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New York subway system obviously works, but as far as esthetics and cleanliness goes virtually every other subway I have used (only in Europe and DC so far) is superior...
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Old June 6th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #1805
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He's got a point, nonetheless...
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Old June 6th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #1806
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From off the top of my head, the 9th avenue and 6th avenue IRT elevated lines were turned into the 1, 2, 3, and B, D, F, and M lines in manhattan. The 3rd ave el became the lexington line (4, 5, 6). The other elevated lines were just torn down and never replaced. However, as you should know, they are TRYING to build the 2nd avenue subway now, which would replace the 2nd ave el.
Are there maps available anywhere of the old elevated lines that are no more? It would be especially interesting if they can be superimposed on the existing subway routes for comparison and to give an impression of what they were replaced with?
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Old June 6th, 2012, 05:31 PM   #1807
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The els weren't replaced or turned into subway lines. The el lines followed different routes and ran along different avenues. In that sense, the former el lines were complementary to the subway network which was built at a later stage. Only (a part of) the 6th Avenue El got torn down and replaced by the IND 6th Avenue line (1940).

The 2nd Avenue El was supposed to be replaced by an IND subway line, too, but that never happened. The 9th and 3rd Avenue Els were torn down and never replaced by subway routes.

A map from 1939 shows all the el and subway lines that were around at the time:

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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:17 AM   #1808
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Wow that's a really useful map, thanks for that. The 9th Ave El looks like it curves around in Lower Manhattan and becomes the 3rd Ave EL with the 2nd Ave EL branching off it and another branch over the Brooklyn Bridge. Does anyone know if that's the case or is that simply the impression the map gives?

It does beg the question as to why the ELS were torn down then if they weren't subsequently replaced?
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Old June 8th, 2012, 11:44 AM   #1809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
Wow that's a really useful map, thanks for that. The 9th Ave El looks like it curves around in Lower Manhattan and becomes the 3rd Ave EL with the 2nd Ave EL branching off it and another branch over the Brooklyn Bridge. Does anyone know if that's the case or is that simply the impression the map gives?
The map doesn't really show the real situation accurately, indeed The 9th and 3rd Ave Els both ended at South Ferry, and weren't (operationally) linked to each other. The Brooklyn Bridge terminal was an altogether different terminal for old El lines coming from Brooklyn. It did not connect to the Manhattan Els. A track map from the 1920's:



Quote:
It does beg the question as to why the ELS were torn down then if they weren't subsequently replaced?
The Els were considered an eye sore and a health risk, running above ground, not allowing any daylight to reach the streets below (which begs the question, in turn, why the same criteria did not apply to skyscrapers which equally deprived Manhattan streets from daylight...), noisy with steel trains running on steel tracks on steel constructions. Were there any plans to replace them with underground lines? No doubt, but those plans were never carried out. Costs must have been the main reason, I guess.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #1810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
The map doesn't really show the real situation accurately, indeed The 9th and 3rd Ave Els both ended at South Ferry, and weren't (operationally) linked to each other. The Brooklyn Bridge terminal was an altogether different terminal for old El lines coming from Brooklyn. It did not connect to the Manhattan Els. A track map from the 1920's:





The Els were considered an eye sore and a health risk, running above ground, not allowing any daylight to reach the streets below (which begs the question, in turn, why the same criteria did not apply to skyscrapers which equally deprived Manhattan streets from daylight...), noisy with steel trains running on steel tracks on steel constructions. Were there any plans to replace them with underground lines? No doubt, but those plans were never carried out. Costs must have been the main reason, I guess.
There are elevated lines left though aren't there, or are they all outside Manhattan?

Thanks for the track diagram. Some fascinating and dare I say 'quirky' station layouts with 'side on' platforms and funny little side branches. That sort of stuff fascinates me.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #1811
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Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
There are elevated lines left though aren't there, or are they all outside Manhattan?
All of the original els in Manhattan - the ones that you see on that map - were removed by 1955. Two of the lines in the Bronx were incorporated into the subway, or were built as part of the subway and ran concurrently with el trains. The line between 149th Street and Gun Hill Road (the more westerly of the two) closed in 1973.

Many of the original els in Brooklyn were incorporated into the subway system, while some lines were closed - 3rd/5th Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, Lexington Avenue, and east end of Fulton/Liberty Avenue (rebuilt on new alignment).

Several elevated lines were built in the outer boroughs as part of the subway. There is one section of the subway in Manhattan that runs above ground - the West Side IRT comes above ground in the vicinity of 125th Street, where the line crosses a deep valley.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #1812
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There is one section of the subway in Manhattan that runs above ground - the West Side IRT comes above ground in the vicinity of 125th Street, where the line crosses a deep valley.
The 1 train also goes elevated again in the Inwood and Marble Hill districts of Manhattan.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #1813
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New York Post
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...UBr6fob6v0EyEP

Quote:
Eek! Subway rat attacks woman on A train
By JENNIFER FERMINO, Transit reporter

Last Updated: 3:22 PM, June 8, 2012
Posted: 3:21 PM, June 8, 2012


A rat slipped on a crowded A train at the height of rush hour this morning and clawed a woman’s leg during the seven minute trip from 125th Street to Columbus Circle, officials said.

The traumatized woman was rushed off the train when it arrived at the 59th Street station and taken to St. Luke’s Hospital for treatment to the scratches on her leg.

She was treated and released, according to a hospital spokesman.

Her name was not released.

The MTA said it does not know how the rat got on board.

“We just have a lot of people out there trying to make sure it doesn’t happen again,” said MTA spokesman Charles Seaton.

“Supervisors will be conducting additional inspections and bringing any issues they may see to the attention of cleaners. It is important to note that we routinely clean subway cars, station platforms and track areas of debris that may attract rodents.”

[email protected]
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:56 PM   #1814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
The 1 train also goes elevated again in the Inwood and Marble Hill districts of Manhattan.
Ah, how did I forget that one? I've even rode on that stretch.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #1815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
A map from 1939 shows all the el and subway lines that were around at the time:

The dark lines that are not surrounded by other colors are the el lines that were closed.

For a time, Fulton Street, Brooklyn, had both an el and a subway. The el lines east of East New York were integrated into the subway, with a realignment in the vicinity of Pitkin Street. The 3rd/5th Avenue was duplicated by the 4th Avenue subway for about 10-20 years. The Franklin Avenue shuttle is the only remaining legacy of these lines, although it actually pre-dated the els.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 05:44 AM   #1816
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I feel kinda bad because I lol'd at that rat attack article.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 07:22 AM   #1817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank IBC View Post
All of the original els in Manhattan - the ones that you see on that map - were removed by 1955. Two of the lines in the Bronx were incorporated into the subway, or were built as part of the subway and ran concurrently with el trains. The line between 149th Street and Gun Hill Road (the more westerly of the two) closed in 1973.

Many of the original els in Brooklyn were incorporated into the subway system, while some lines were closed - 3rd/5th Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, Lexington Avenue, and east end of Fulton/Liberty Avenue (rebuilt on new alignment).

Several elevated lines were built in the outer boroughs as part of the subway. There is one section of the subway in Manhattan that runs above ground - the West Side IRT comes above ground in the vicinity of 125th Street, where the line crosses a deep valley.
Thanks for that; it explains my confusion about how the ELs and the subway related to one another.

You mentioned the Franklin shuttle in a later post. This reminds me a bit of the Aldwych shuttle in London which is now closed due to low ridership. Does the Franklin shuttle get much ridership or is it justified more as a 'rush hour' connector between two other lines?
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Old June 9th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #1818
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Thanks for that; it explains my confusion about how the ELs and the subway related to one another.
The reason why the older els were not integrated with the subway was that their structure was not strong enough to support the larger, heavier subway cars, and the curves were too sharp. El cars could run on subway lines, but not vice-versa. Most el cars were made of wood, although there were some special lightweight metal cars that were designed specifically for old els. One example was the Bluebird car:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebir..._Subway_car%29

Wooden el cars were banned from the subway following the Malbone Street crash in 1918.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CairnsTony View Post
You mentioned the Franklin shuttle in a later post. This reminds me a bit of the Aldwych shuttle in London which is now closed due to low ridership. Does the Franklin shuttle get much ridership or is it justified more as a 'rush hour' connector between two other lines?
The ridership on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle is among the lowest in the system. New York City has been trying to shut down the Franklin Avenue Shuttle for decades. But they gave up and just did a major renovation of the line a decade ago.

The Brighton line started out as a surface, steam line, starting near the present Fulton/Franklin Avenue station, then running along the Franklin line and from there down what is now the Brighton Beach line down to Coney Island. After the el was built, Brighton trains started in the Brooklyn Bridge terminal, crossed the Brooklyn Bridge, took the Fulton Street el, and then turned sharply onto Franklin Avenue.

The 1939 map shows a line connecting the Culver Line to the West End and Fourth Avenue lines (plus the older Fifth Avenue El). This line was later separated from the rest and operated just as a shuttle, like the Franklin Avenue line. But it was closed about 30 years ago.

(Feel free to correct any errors, New Yorkers.)
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Old June 12th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #1819
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DNAinfo
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2012...brooklyn-bronx

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Two Men Struck and Killed by Subway Trains in Brooklyn, The Bronx
June 12, 2012 8:25am | By Alan Neuhauser, DNAinfo Reporter/Producer


NEW YORK — Two men were struck and killed by subway trains in unrelated incidents that occurred within an hour of each other in Brooklyn and The Bronx Monday night, authorities said.

In the first incident, a man lying on the rail bed at the Avenue M station at East 16th Street in Midwood was hit by a Manhattan-bound Q train at 8:16 p.m., the MTA reported. He was transported to New York Community Hospital and pronounced dead, NYPD and FDNY officials said.

Police said the incident appears to be a suicide.

Less than an hour later, a southbound D train leaving the 167th Street station in Concourse hit and killed a man on the tracks, according to the MTA. It remains unclear why the man was on the tracks.

Service on the Q and D lines was suspended for nearly two hours after the incidents, the MTA said.
DNAinfo
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/2012...milton-heights

Quote:
Woman Hit by 1 Train in Hamilton Heights
June 12, 2012 9:59am | By Alan Neuhauser, Maya Shwayder

MANHATTAN — A southbound 1 train hit a woman in Hamilton Heights during the Tuesday morning rush hour, authorities said, as she apparently leaned over the tracks to look for an oncoming train.

The woman, whose identity was not released, was hit at the 137th Street-City College station at 7:36 a.m., the FDNY and MTA said. She suffered a non-life-threatening head injury, and was taken to Harlem Hospital, officials said.

The woman was struck as she leaned over the tracks from the platform, said an MTA employee, who stated that he saw the collision.

"Maybe she was looking for the train," he said.

Southbound 1 trains bypassed the 137th Street-City College station for about 30 minutes after the incident, the MTA said.
137th St has countdown clocks - no need to crane your neck down the tracks.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #1820
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How is the standardization of the doors on New York's subway cars? Would it be easy to put up some railing to prevent people falling on the tracks?
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