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Old October 17th, 2006, 05:11 AM   #21
Platypus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hala View Post
Hay hay hay! Take it easy man!

This is an "Architecture" section, so all we care is ARCHITECTURE
Check out the many threads in this forum where political/historical issues are discussed. It's not really possible to discuss architectural issues in isolation from everything else because architecture is shaped and formed by historical and political influences.


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Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
Such a typical hypocritical and self-serving reaction. Why don't you say that without the barbaric Opium Wars and consequent destructions, China's history would never have turned that way!?

I don't really see the connection between the opium wars and the crimes of the Chinese Communist Government post 1949. Is the Government thinking of the opium wars when it supressess tibet?

Last edited by Platypus; October 17th, 2006 at 05:18 AM.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 08:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platypus View Post
Check out the many threads in this forum where political/historical issues are discussed. ......
blablabla....

Ya? Don't see your point here. Anyways, just going go somewhere else to start your own thread and give your political speech. We don't care it here.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 09:07 AM   #23
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Back to the topic

The movie premiered last week. It's invited to be showed in different film festivals around the world, including Cannes and Oscar.

posters


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Old October 17th, 2006, 09:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platypus View Post
Check out the many threads in this forum where political/historical issues are discussed. It's not really possible to discuss architectural issues in isolation from everything else because architecture is shaped and formed by historical and political influences.

I don't really see the connection between the opium wars and the crimes of the Chinese Communist Government post 1949. Is the Government thinking of the opium wars when it supressess tibet?
I love the idea of how a discussion about a particular historic complex has been turned into a discussion about something else completely.

Back to the topic, I also don't see any connections between what the Chinese Communist Government did to the Tiananmen Square Protests with the historical complex that is been discussed in this article. What does the "Old Summer Palace" has to do with it?

Last edited by Petroshky; October 17th, 2006 at 10:04 AM.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 10:45 PM   #25
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I don't really see the connection between the opium wars and the crimes of the Chinese Communist Government post 1949. Is the Government thinking of the opium wars when it supressess tibet?
Because you are an ignorant of the principals of cause and consequence.

Just to enlighten you a bit: No Opium Wars ... no weakening of China ... no humiliation ... no Boxer Rebellion ... no Versaille Treaty ... no 4th May Movement ... no communism ... no Cultur Revolution ... no Tian'anmen Incident ... Now go and read some history, fill in the blancs and connects the dots I gave you.

BTW Tibet has been under Chinese rule since the Yuan dynasty ... look up in the history books to get the dates. And talking about suppression ... why don't you start with the the white man's extermination of the natives of the Americas and Australia.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 01:59 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
Because you are an ignorant of the principals of cause and consequence.

Just to enlighten you a bit: No Opium Wars ... no weakening of China ... no humiliation ... no Boxer Rebellion ... no Versaille Treaty ... no 4th May Movement ... no communism ... no Cultur Revolution ... no Tian'anmen Incident ... Now go and read some history, fill in the blancs and connects the dots I gave you.
You're drawing a long bow there. By the way, it was not the Tian'anmen 'Incident' (as described by the Chinese Government), it was the Tian'anmen Massace. The point surely is that the Chinese Government (and its supporters) embrace history as an excuse for continued human rights abuses and oppression. How long can you hark back to the past to justify current injustices?

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Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
BTW Tibet has been under Chinese rule since the Yuan dynasty ... look up in the history books to get the dates. And talking about suppression ... why don't you start with the the white man's extermination of the natives of the Americas and Australia.
Hmmm..I think most Tibetans would disagree! Surely you will see the irony in calling me ignorant when you talk about the white man's extermination of the natives of the Americas and Australia. As an Australian, I can assure you that aboriginals have not been 'exterminated', indeed, the birth rate amongst indigenous people in Australia is higher than caucasion (white) people.

I suspect this is one of those cases where we could argue forever and neither convince the other, so I will get off this subject and leave the thread to its original topic.

Last edited by Platypus; October 18th, 2006 at 02:23 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 08:51 AM   #27
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I disagree that I belong to Earth, does that make myself martian? Extra terrestial aliens, maybe?
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Old October 18th, 2006, 08:56 AM   #28
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Yes, the west committed some atrocities in China which the chinese are always quick to point out. Regrettably, they are usually slower to acknowledge the much larger damage caused by their own Communist Government. One example is the large amount of cutural artifacts destroyed by the red guards during the so-called 'cultural revolution.'
Of course they are slower to respond. And thankfully they are... I mean after all Chinese are not retarded people, why would they go rushing admitting their own fault even faster than recognizing atrocities done by OTHERS to them??
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:53 AM   #29
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@Platypus:

Too bad, you fail to educate Chinese people.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:58 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by hala View Post
Back to the topic

The movie premiered last week. It's invited to be showed in different film festivals around the world, including Cannes and Oscar.

posters



Great drawing. I like it.
I won't miss the chance to watch the movie.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 03:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platypus View Post
You're drawing a long bow there. By the way, it was not the Tian'anmen 'Incident' (as described by the Chinese Government), it was the Tian'anmen Massace. The point surely is that the Chinese Government (and its supporters) embrace history as an excuse for continued human rights abuses and oppression. How long can you hark back to the past to justify current injustices?
Don't you thing the French Revolution did affect Europe's democratication process?

Declassified CIA documents stated that there was no massacre.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Platypus View Post
Hmmm..I think most Tibetans would disagree! Surely you will see the irony in calling me ignorant when you talk about the white man's extermination of the natives of the Americas and Australia. As an Australian, I can assure you that aboriginals have not been 'exterminated', indeed, the birth rate amongst indigenous people in Australia is higher than caucasion (white) people.

I suspect this is one of those cases where we could argue forever and neither convince the other, so I will get off this subject and leave the thread to its original topic.
The native Australians are a minority in their homeland and their culture has been virtually destroyed and until not so long ago they were not even classified as human beings. Also until not so long ago "White Australia" was a de facto national policy of racist land robbers.

Last edited by YelloPerilo; October 18th, 2006 at 03:57 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 03:55 PM   #32
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Where can I see this movie?? I really want to see it! Anyone from the UK know anything about where it might be screened here?
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Old October 18th, 2006, 10:15 PM   #33
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some more background info of the movie

New documentary recounts old Summer Palace
2006-09-27



Yuan Ming Yuan, or the old Summer Palace, which was burned by British and French troops during the Second Opium War is the topic of a new documentary that re-creates the stunning palaces and gardens with computer-generated imagery, writes Yao Minji.

The destruction of Yuan Ming Yuan, or the old Summer Palace, in Beijing - an embodiment of Chinese architecture and culture - remains a tragedy for most Chinese. Now a new documentary titled "Yuan Ming Yuan," to be released in Shanghai in mid-October, tries to recount the disaster.

The film takes the imperial garden as an epitome of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) and reveals both the glorious days and the destruction of the pavilions and gardens.

On October 18, 1860, during the Second Opium War, British and French troops burned the old Summer Palace in a fire lasting three days and killing many people. Its destruction remains a symbol of foreign aggression and national humiliation. Release of the film will coincide with the 146th anniversary of the torching of the great landmark.

Director Jin Tiemu seeks assistance from computer-generated imaging, or CGI, technology to re-create the destroyed palace.

It might seem strange at first glance to include so many computerized images in a documentary, however, Jin is reluctant to call his film merely a documentary.

"It should be categorized as a non-fictional film, rather than a documentary. The category of documentary often gives audiences a false impression because they are biased and tend to associate documentaries with educational purposes - so they often consider them boring. To be accurate, 'Yuan Ming Yuan' is a non-fictional film," says Jin.

To him, the boundary between fictional and non-fictional films is getting more ambiguous nowadays. Many fictional films base their stories on real historical events, such as "Tokyo Trial," which is now being screened in Shanghai. Meanwhile, many documentaries contain re-created stories, such as the acclaimed "March of the Penguins" and now, "Yuan Ming Yuan."

Melissa Edouard, an American student who studied Chinese in Shanghai, says that the computerized images would not affect her decision to watch the film, although it seems a little bit strange to have so many special effects in a documentary.

"I would definitely want to know how they got the information (about how Yuan Ming Yuan looked like before it was destroyed), and it would be great if they put that in the film," says Melissa.

Computer-generated imaging was a indispensable choice for Jin at the beginning of the production because the garden was burned to ground with only a few stones left on the site.

In recent years, Chinese documentaries, especially those focusing on Chinese history and culture, have attracted various international distributors. Some of them have been sold to more than a hundred countries and regions.

Following this trend, Jin takes foreign audiences into his consideration from the very beginning of the production. The film is linked by the perspectives of three foreign missionaries who actually lived in the Qing Dynasty. Among them, Jesuit Giuseppe Castiglione (with the Chinese name Lang Shining) and Jean-Denis Attiret (Wang Zhicheng) both served as painters for the royal palace and participated in the expansion of the old Summer Palace during the reign of Qing Emperor Qianlong.

"All films are re-created fantasies, whether it is fictional or non-fictional, whether it deals with present or past, therefore CGI is just another way to tell the story," says Jin.

"Story" remains a keyword during the interview with Jin. He frequently remarks that the film has strong storylines and will be enjoyable to audiences who are used to fictional films.

"My ideal audiences are those who know something about the history and significance of Yuan Ming Yuan and want to know more about the true history. They will not be disappointed by this movie. It does not have an educational purpose, it's just a film for you to enjoy," says Jin.

Such audiences include both domestic and international ones.

Shen Jiayu, a fresh college graduate who moved to New

York with her family at the age of three, says: "My relatives and friends all like to watch Chinese documentaries. They have been very popular recently, especially those that concern the history and culture. I think overseas Chinese are more interested in and pay more attention to Chinese culture because we are outside of it."

Not only are overseas Chinese fond of such documentaries, but many foreigners are interested in Chinese history and culture.

"I think the interest in the garden is more than the fact that it was beautiful. Also because it has been difficult to construct in the first place and had a mix styles with Chinese and European architectures," explains Vincent, a French student studying in Shanghai.

"Moreover, it is of interest because it (Yuan Ming Yuan) has been destroyed. People often have nostalgia and pity for things that no longer exist. Therefore, a documentary about the imperial palace would be great in showing us how beautiful the garden was before the catastrophe," he adds.

Editor: Yan
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Old October 19th, 2006, 01:17 AM   #34
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I know I said I would leave this topic but I couldn't resist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by YelloPerilo View Post
Declassified CIA documents stated that there was no massacre.
Released documents from the US embassy during the Tiananmen Square Massacre:-

Document 17: Secretary of State's Morning Summary for June 5, 1989, China: After the Bloodbath

By the morning of June 5 (Eastern Standard Time) the "severity of the assault" had become clear to U.S. officials. This intelligence summary, prepared by the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, reports that, "Troops shot indiscriminately into crowds of unarmed civilians, including women and children, often with automatic weapons… Foreign journalists report seeing fleeing protesters shot in the back." The document notes the large number of destroyed military vehicles littering the Beijing streets, and reports that an undisclosed entity had "secured a university campus where students had captured an armored personnel carrier, and issued a warning that executions of students would begin tonight."

Document 30: Cable, From: U.S. Embassy Beijing, To: Department of State, Wash DC, Eyewitness Account of June 4 PLA Tank Crushing 11 Students and Related Early Morning Events in Tiananmen Square (June 22, 1989)

This extraordinary document provides the detailed account of a source who witnessed firsthand the violence at Tiananmen Square on the night of June 3-4. The source indicated that the students had believed that the soldiers would be firing rubber bullets and that "he had a sickening feeling when he noticed the bullets striking sparks off the pavement near his feet." His and other eyewitness descriptions represent an effort by diplomatic reporters to gather evidence about the crackdown and get the story straight. Most impressive in the account is the source’s graphic description of a PLA tank crushing 11 students under its wheels on the morning of June 4. Comments at the end of the document indicate that the source’s version dovetails with the comments of other sources, concluding that, "We find his account of that episode credible. His accounts of other incidents are worth recording as other evidence becomes available."


Document 31: Cable, From: U.S. Embassy Beijing, To: Department of State, Wash DC, What Happened on the Night of June 3/4? (June 22, 1989)

This document, as its authors state in the outset, "attempts to set the record straight" about the events of the night of June 3-4. Contrary to earlier reports in the western media, the cable asserts that many if not most of the deaths associated with the crackdown occurred on Changan Avenue and other streets surrounding the square, rather than on Tiananmen Square itself. The document calls the notion that the military could have suffered more casualties than civilians "inconceivable," but holds that "civilian deaths probably did not reach the figure of 3,000 used in some press reports," but believes that the figure put forward by the Chinese Red Cross of 2,600 military and civilian deaths with 7,000 wounded to be "not an unreasonable estimate." The cable concludes with a detailed, hour-by-hour chronology of the events of the night of June 3-4.

According to YelloPerilo, these things never happened.

Last edited by Platypus; October 19th, 2006 at 05:19 AM.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 04:28 AM   #35
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The native Australians are a minority in their homeland and their culture has been virtually destroyed and until not so long ago they were not even classified as human beings. Also until not so long ago "White Australia" was a de facto national policy of racist land robbers.
Unlike China, Australia respects individual rights and freedoms. Many nationalities exist in Australia including many chinese immigrants who have been made to feel welcome in my country. The facts are at:-

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/02key.htm

Last edited by Platypus; October 19th, 2006 at 05:21 AM.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 07:04 PM   #36
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Yes, the west committed some atrocities in China which the chinese are always quick to point out. Regrettably, they are usually slower to acknowledge the much larger damage caused by their own Communist Government. One example is the large amount of cutural artifacts destroyed by the red guards during the so-called 'cultural revolution.'
Wow, to be honest, your point sucks. donot you think chinese are stupid enough that need you to teach them how to criticize themselves. I mean such as the cultural revolution or something else are NON of your foreigners business. we are talking about the crimes made by your foreigners in china. of coures we are angry. for example, if you broke a precious vase at your home. sure you would be so sad and blame yourself. Do you think you need to tell me as foreigner that you feel guilty because you made some mistakes at your home. but if I rushed into your house and smashed your precious vase. you would be very angry and blame me morever ask police arrest me . right??? or you are very welcoming me and invite me to have a cup of tea? . I am very confused that some of your foreigners are always very interested in and criticize what chinese made some mistakes in their own land. and they never criticize themselves what they did some crimes in china.
of coures we feel so sad and regret about the mistakes made by ourself, BUT we also feel so angry about the crimes made by your foreigners. do you think is there anything wrong???
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Last edited by Jiangwho; October 19th, 2006 at 07:41 PM.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 02:11 AM   #37
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of coures we feel so sad and regret about the mistakes made by ourself, BUT we also feel so angry about the crimes made by your foreigners. do you think is there anything wrong???
Just this: Anything that foreigners did to China was a long time ago. You have to face the injustices and corruption of the Chinese Government TODAY. You can go back to your history as long as you like if you want to look for an excuse to ignore the problems of China. You can't escape the fact that the current government does not represent the people of China. If it did, there would be no need for it to control the media, courts, and military the way it does.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 03:20 AM   #38
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Actually no. You are obviously quite clueless to what extent Chinese government maintains control maximizes the well being of Chinese society in the context we see today.
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Old October 20th, 2006, 04:05 AM   #39
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Actually no. You are obviously quite clueless to what extent Chinese government maintains control maximizes the well being of Chinese society in the context we see today.
I am certainly clueless about your post. Something about the Chinese Government 'maintaining control?' Are you saying the Government dosen't exert final control over the press? A chinese newspaper can print whatever they like? Who is being clueless? I have lived in china, and whenever the Government felt anything 'inconvienient' was being broadcast they pulled the plug on CNN, BBC, etc.

Last edited by Platypus; October 20th, 2006 at 04:12 AM.
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Old October 21st, 2006, 12:55 AM   #40
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Well, I am pretty sure I know more about China than you do so you don't need to point out how long you've lived there. China is maintaining control of the press, that means the press freedom is limited. That's exactly what I've been saying. So? Why is absolute press freedom the ultimate best solution for everyone in any country in the world? You want personal freedom, great. Now is anything free to do anything? Is everyone free to murder and get away with it? Can I steal whatever I want simply because I want that "free"dom? In China, freedom is limited simply whatever freedom that's limited, it needs to be.
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