Paradise circus

[FLD]

Originally Posted by SimLim

Arrghh so frsutrating.

1. You dont see them on the skyline
2. They are best looked at from street level (towers would not affect this)
3. You cant prevent massive development in the city center because of a few not lying average oldie worldy buildings.
4. If towers arent built we will be left with A. No public space B. No throughway. C. A 15 storey block of wall to wall buildings which will do nothing for the city.
5. Towers would enable a linkup between victoria sqaure and centenary square.
6. It needs to be a landmark scheme. Almost impossible to exceed if you implement height restrictions.
7. Arena Central will cast just as much of a shadow as the sun rotates around the city.
8. I can see why you're not a planner.

You lost your credibility Sim when you described the Town Hall, Council House & Museum & Art Gallery as "average oldie worldy buildings". If you've failed to see the historical significance not only to Birmingham but the entire country of these "average oldie worldy buildings", then you've lost the plot completely sonny Jim!

These are AVERAGE oldie worldy buildings. Put them next to the Tower Of Pisa, St Pauls, Notre Dame etc etc they are hardly the prime examples of thier era of architecture. Yes they are good, but to prevent a growth of a city because of them?

Losing the plot? Could be something to do with your constant bullshit.

[FLD]

Originally Posted by SimLim

These are AVERAGE oldie worldy buildings. Put them next to the Tower Of Pisa, St Pauls, Notre Dame etc etc they are hardly the prime examples of thier era of architecture. Yes they are good, but to prevent a growth of a city because of them?

Losing the plot? Could be something to do with your constant bullshit.

But in the context of BIRMINGHAM, they're all we've got in the way of "average oldie worldy buildings", & are extremely important to the city, they are priceless!!! We're discussing BIRMINGHAM here, not Paris, not Pisa & not London!! Sorry, but you HAVE lost the plot..... BIG time!!!!!!!!!!

[FLD]

Sim, if you are prepared to jeopardise this, then thank goodness you are not a planner for Birmingham City Council...... & thank heavens you weren't a city planner in the 1950's or 60's as this view would be gone!

What's it going to be jeopardising? The view from street level? Are we going to demolish them?

Seriously.

Crown jewels? More like good quality buildings which survived the war. How old are you FLD?

That view? you mean blue sky behind it? For a start Paradise Circus tower locations will not over hang the council house.

Lets not take the distraction of me thinking of progression from you and you constant baffling bullshit as refered to before.

[FLD]

You know what I mean Sim, I could've chosen a view looking over towards Cahamberlain Square & the Town Hall, towers looming behind would look ridiculous, they would be too close. You've got this idealised image in your mind of half a dozen towers on the distant skyline, but these at Paradise Circus would be practically on top of the Town Hall & Museum & Art Gallery.

You talk crap about jeaopardising the "view from street level" .... it would do more than that Sim, it would jeapardise Birmingham's credibility forever! What a nob!

You really do have a limited view of things dont you. I'll shall refrain from spouting of anymore because I can tell you are getting aggiatated because you're starting to puff out your chest and bang on it. Name calling and everything else FLD. Whatever next. AC to be released?

[Biosonic]

How about we clear the land next to the Town Hall and Council House and build a lovely big inverted pyramid with virtually no windows and made out of concrete, and also run the ring road past it?

I am with Foxy - towers set back are fine. Not sure about the one next to the Town Hall though.

I think we need something Brindley Place-esque generally, with a couple of gleaming office towers near Summer Row.

[woodhousen]

no no kidds, chill...

...here is my attempt at showing that the major blocks of paradise circus could sustain towers... i think

tower one = 100m office
tower 2 = 128m resi

enjoy!









...and simlim, i may question your thoughts on the council house... yes its not up there with other world famous stuff, but it should stll be preserved...though its ironic that someone such as FLD questions your credibility

No doubt it should be preserved as I said it's a fine piece of architecture but on world architectural merits very average. FLD however iniatially quoted NO TOWERS at all should be built on the site. This itself would limit the development scale they wish to achieve. I think your massing renders are evidence that large towers can be sustained on site, with a huge amount of throughfare and open public space still included.

Good work.

May I also ask what programme you are using?

[Erebus555]

Good stuff woody! You've got a thing for blue tinted glass . I'm surprised you've made it so detailed as well. Putting in floors on Sketchup takes ages for me.

[Bachy Soletanche]

Originally Posted by woodhousen

no no kidds, chill...

...here is my attempt at showing that the major blocks of paradise circus could sustain towers... i think

tower one = 100m office
tower 2 = 128m resi

enjoy!









...and simlim, i may question your thoughts on the council house... yes its not up there with other world famous stuff, but it should stll be preserved...though its ironic that someone such as FLD questions your credibility

You've also repected the Summer Row street layout, there's no reason to supose they couldn't change that in a similar way as Snow Hill, which would give you even more room for the tall.

And since that whole area is a dogs dinner as regards pedistrians, probably a good idea anyway.

thinking about it, the Library I can see a argument for, but the Copthorn, the Fletchers walk, that little garden noone uses, the whold of Summer Row's access area, really, really bad.

[flying tackle]

would there still be access from paradise walk coming from summer garden into the main path where macdonalds is now? because this is the easiest way to get into the city from the multi storie car park we use

[Engels]

Originally Posted by SimLim

These are AVERAGE oldie worldy buildings. Put them next to the Tower Of Pisa, St Pauls, Notre Dame etc etc they are hardly the prime examples of thier era of architecture. Yes they are good, but to prevent a growth of a city because of them?

Losing the plot? Could be something to do with your constant bullshit.

To be honest Slim i reckon u must be a reincarnation of Herbert Manzoni with that thinking. Do you find yourself dreaming of extending the ring road in your spare time? or drawing up plans of which buildings to tear down from OS maps without looking at the buildings themselves?

The buildings you mentioned are over 400 years old & extremely important reflection of their era. However we are talking about extremely important buildings of the 19C of which the town halls of Birmingham & Manchester (+our council house) are surely the most historically and aesthetically important buildings of that time outside of London. They reflect the pride of the era when Britain's Great Manufacturing cities were at their height and for that reason they are deserving of their Grade 1 listing.
Aesthetically you may argue that out Town Hall & Council House are only good and not great but historically they are most definitely priceless.

That said i have no problems with towers on the Paradise Circus site although think they need to be sensitively cited along the lines is suggested here.

Hang on Engels read what was said. They are very nice buildings. Yes! no denying that, however for a start, the tower sites will in no way interfer with them, to put a complete block on any towers over 12 storeys would be a disaster. This is a prime development site. 2msqft+ is guranteed. A tower or 2 WILL BE included.

Shadowing is the only major concern. However initial details explain that any structure 150m+ on the Arena Central site would have more of an impact then those at PC.

Im not saying I dislike the city hall, council house etc but, and its a big BUT they will hardly prevent a towering success if chosen for the redevlopment of the site. UNESCO are'nt going to come in as they would in London or even Liverpool for that matter. What we have is a chance to make a statment keeping in thought the effects towers might have on these specific buildings.

Either way, towers will be built. You cant stop that.

[Engels]

well read what i said then ....

I'm pro towers although think they shouldn't be directly opposite but on the other side of the development.. it'd be good to open up views of the clock tower from Broad st which is another reason why i want to see the "Book Incinerator" torn down.

I was just taken aback by your description of the Town hall and Council house as Average. They are historically significant probably to a much greater extent than the Tower of Pisa... just more recent.

[Bachy Soletanche]

I know that no detailed plans have been produced or anything, but I'm more interested in the small buildings that will make the square with the Art Gallery and the town hall than the tall buggers, which are fine by me as long as they ain't part of the square(s).

[Mathieu]

Originally Posted by SimLim

These are AVERAGE oldie worldy buildings. Put them next to the Tower Of Pisa, St Pauls, Notre Dame etc etc they are hardly the prime examples of thier era of architecture. Yes they are good, but to prevent a growth of a city because of them?

Losing the plot? Could be something to do with your constant bullshit.

To compare these average oldie worldy buildings with The Tower of Pisa, St Pauls, Notre Dame is ridiculous. The Town Hall, The Council House and Victoria and Chamberlain Squares make one of the most wonderful City Centres anywhere. Whatever is planned for Paradise Circus must complement this cluster and not detract from it. What is so wonderful about Birmingham is that you have so many places you can have skyscrapers a luxury 99% of cities don't have. Even when London had the GLC Building it was forgettable as a building as is the present one. If you wish to compare The Council House to a building in France lets go to Lyon the 2nd City and the Hôtel de Ville there is no great shakes with just a square in front quite ordinary really.

[feltip]

Going back to the £2m comment. I thought it was more than that but whatever the figure its Argent who are spending it on paradise forum with some limited aesthetic changes to entrances to the forum.

Its better its more appealing and useful in the short term as it will be an interesting step by step development to redo paradise circus
a) Move library, retail, Conservatoire
b) demolish
c) realign roads
d) rebuild

and thats put very crudely.

Love your design Woody though I am very gutted about your Great Charles Street design, was very excited. Though saving my heart attack excitement for AC